10 Years Later - From a DB'er

[DonH]

Thanks to all three of you for responding. Maybell I specifically hope you'll stick with me here and continue to give me some feedback. After reading much of what you provided I fear I'm either writing too much and all of it's not getting read or I'm doing a really poor job of communicating. Surfer you seem to be getting me more although there are still things I feel are being misunderstood. If after I try to rephrase, any or all of you are thinking "Yeah, Don, we understood and got it the first time" then clearly I have the opportunity for some growth as you guys get it and I don't. If it becomes more like "that's different than I thought you were saying," I'm right and not being clear.

LOWERING STANDARDS: By that I mean accepting more things that may not be in my check boxes. I guess it's not a lowering of standards near as much as accepting more things that I would not otherwise accept. I don't have an actual list but if I did an example would be accepting 20 our of 40 items on the list rather than 30 our of 40 - I'm lowering my must haves. Does that make sense or is that the same as lowering standards?

MAYBELL - INITIATING COMMUNICATION: You say you don't initiate, but do you respond? What happened with the latest women is we went out 9 weeks ago now - nine flipping weeks. At the end of the date I asked her out again and she said without hesitation "absolutely" yet we've not gone out. Am I wrong in thinking she's saying one thing and doing the other? She wont' return a phone call. Returns 50% of texts unless I stop reaching out then she contact me and pursues saying she's just been busy - almost like a temp check? So I re-engage and ask her out a second time - she again says "that would be great" but fails to provide any open dates or chose from a list I give her. The third attempt she finally started to give me some honesty and I thought awesome - a breakthrough. She even told a friend how nice my notes were in response to her struggling, again says it would be great to go out and back to more of the same of no response or limited response. I am certainly wanting to take things slow but 9 weeks between dates? Am I reading this wrong?

SON IS HER LIFE - I totally agree and would never expect to take that place. The thing is, she appears to be leaving zero room for anyone else. He's number one to the exclusion of everyone else, including from what I have gathered his sister. Again, am I looking at this wrong? By all means put the son first but since I asked and she accepted am I expecting too much in expecting her to response saying "these are the nights I have open, does any work for you?" (this list of potential dates I already gave her - two weeks worth - went unanswered)

REJECTION - Obviously no one wants that but I honestly prefer that or really honesty over games and guessing. If any of them are not interested why for the love of God can they or do they not just say that? If that's the case, why not say "you're a great guy but we are not a match" or whatever? Why say, "absolutely let's go out" but then have actions of the opposite?

WHAT DO I WANT - Wow Surfer that was so helpful. I was only looking at it in broad terms and my terms - not thinking that yes, I want them to be comfortable with me, feel safe with me, enjoy my company, have fun, etc. Totally overlooked a lot of it. Doesn't mean I have not wanted it but clearly I didn't include it in the list so it was not front and center in my mind. Thanks for helping to put it there.

RINSE AND REPEAT - I'm nearly positive I'm not expressing myself correctly here. What I'm trying to say is that the very things you are suggesting I do, drop back, take a break, don't try as hard, lay out your cards, etc. I did three years ago and it got me nowhere. To that end, well meaning friends suggested I do more of what I'm doing now - yet that's not working either. It's frustrating to then have you guys say go back to what I was doing - that also didn't work. From my point of view I've tried a variety of things in at least two ballparks - yet NOTHING has worked. Obviously I need to find a third ballpark? My frustration is in NOT wanting to do more of the same - both the more of the same I've done recently and more of the same I did previously - does that make sense?

I was fearing I was not being outgoing and straight forward enough - lay your cards on the table and let her know you are interested. So I do that with poor results so then I'm told "leave a little mystery, let her chase you a bit, don't tell her so quickly, three texts or calls without a response and you stop" So I try that and like I said now you guys are saying different. None of these seem to work - that's the frustration.

WHAT I"M EXPECTING - At the end of it all what I am expecting from all of these women is honesty and follow through - whatever that is. Don't tell me you are not interested and then pursue me. Don't tell me you are interested and then fail to follow-through with a date. Don't tell me one thing and then do another including the opposite. Am I wrong in that? Is this unreasonable?

I DISAGREE WITH ONE THING MAYBELL - You said "People are people; no one is of a higher or lower standard than anyone else." I could not disagree more. Michael Jordon is at a higher standard than a high school ball player. Frank Sinatra is a higher standard than Weird Al when it comes to vocals. I'm at a higher standard than the person who refuses to get a job, support himself, take care of his kids, etc. Not everyone is created equal. We may just have to agree to disagree on that one, but from where I sit it's this entire everyone is great, everyone is equal that has our country going down the dumper and the Millennials the most screwed up generation in a long, long time - but that's a whole other topic.

Again, I totally value all three of you and sincerely want to learn from you - and anyone else. If it's me I'll take that and do what I can to change, I just want to make sure I'm being clear about everything and you are fully understanding it before declaring it is me as so many other's I've talked to have suggest that: Don these women don't know what they want and are not available for a relationship - move on no matter what they tell you.

Then at the end of the day, yet again, I have to say, this all seems so much harder and so much different than it used to be. In the past if a girl said she wanted to go out - we did. If she said she didn't, we didn't. We may have not been a match in the end but they did what they said and were honest - at least much of the time. I don't know if it's all the added baggage at this age or what but dang this is hard. Or perhaps it's my baggage clouding me!

Thanks again I honestly and sincerely greatly appreciate your help and input!

[Maybell]

You said "People are people; no one is of a higher or lower standard than anyone else." I could not disagree more. Michael Jordon is at a higher standard than a high school ball player. Frank Sinatra is a higher standard than Weird Al when it comes to vocals. I'm at a higher standard than the person who refuses to get a job, support himself, take care of his kids, etc.

Don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting you would be appropriately paired with a junkie or a deadbeat. But if you think you're after Michael Jordan or Frank Sinatra and anyone less accomplished than that is lowering your standards, then I suggest you are looking in the wrong places for your match. My Guy is wonderful in many ways, but he's nowhere near as professionally accomplished or as ambitious as Mr. Fantastic. Does that make him of a lower standard? Not to me. He's beautifully self-aware and willing to articulate his experiences. He's insightful and supportive. I *love* road-tripping with him -- he's fun, but not flashy, as Mr. Fantastic was. Am I lowering my standards? No way. I'm de-emphasizing the highly visible in favor of qualities that take time to discover. I've been fortunate to discover that by holding on to the meaningful things I mentioned in an earlier post, and letting go of most of the rest (except height; but even that was more negotiable than I thought, lol) I became open to finding someone who wouldn't have made the cut years before. My Guy and I recently laughed about that -- he wouldn't have dated me in years past either, we both had to change what we thought was important to us in order to find a person who feels really right.

You say you don't initiate, but do you respond? What happened with the latest women is we went out 9 weeks ago now - nine flipping weeks. At the end of the date I asked her out again and she said without hesitation "absolutely" yet we've not gone out. Am I wrong in thinking she's saying one thing and doing the other? She wont' return a phone call. Returns 50% of texts unless I stop reaching out then she contact me and pursues saying she's just been busy - almost like a temp check?

I think ghosting is a terrible development in the world of dating since the 1990's. I did accidentally ghost once, because I got the text when I was on a long date with someone else and I didn't think it would be appropriate to answer while I was out with Guy B. By the end of the date I knew I was going to terminate Guy A but it took me a couple of days to find the right words, because I wanted to be kind and clear. Didn't mean to leave the guy hanging, but I did.

That said, I would encourage you to BELIEVE THE NEGATIVES. When people show you who they are, believe them. These women are ghosting you and they know they're doing it. Definitely. Don't go back to that well a second or third time! Move on. Is that really someone you want a relationship with? No! They're already proving they're unreliable and uninvested. Maybe that's not who they want to be, but at the moment at least, that's who they are. As for why the messages are being passed through friends, etc.? Why worry about it? You're not in seventh grade. Hear it and release it. These women are not relationship material for you. It's OK for that to be so. Don't waste time untangling the skein of crazy. You want better for yourself, don't accept that kind of treatment.

SON IS HER LIFE - I totally agree and would never expect to take that place. The thing is, she appears to be leaving zero room for anyone else. He's number one to the exclusion of everyone else, including from what I have gathered his sister. Again, am I looking at this wrong? By all means put the son first but since I asked and she accepted am I expecting too much in expecting her to response saying "these are the nights I have open, does any work for you?" (this list of potential dates I already gave her - two weeks worth - went unanswered)

See above. Additionally, who cares if she's overly involved with him? Not your circus. She's not relationship material.

I was fearing I was not being outgoing and straight forward enough - lay your cards on the table and let her know you are interested. So I do that with poor results so then I'm told "leave a little mystery, let her chase you a bit, don't tell her so quickly, three texts or calls without a response and you stop" So I try that and like I said now you guys are saying different. None of these seem to work - that's the frustration.

WHAT I"M EXPECTING - At the end of it all what I am expecting from all of these women is honesty and follow through - whatever that is. Don't tell me you are not interested and then pursue me. Don't tell me you are interested and then fail to follow-through with a date. Don't tell me one thing and then do another including the opposite. Am I wrong in that? Is this unreasonable?

Look at that -- you've laid out what you want. Honesty and follow-through. It happens you haven't found it yet. That doesn't mean YOU are the problem. My Guy says it took him years to find what he wanted -- because I wasn't ready for him yet. (Isn't he awesome??? ;)) Behave in a way that is generous, that puts what you offer and what qualities you value ahead of the superficial stuff, and believe people when they show you who they are. You'll save yourself a lot of time and crazy. It may not take any less time but you will be a better catch, and when you find the right person you'll be quicker to recognize and appreciate her.

Did I miss anything?

Go be awesome.

[Surfer]

Wow Maybell. You're good at this. Will have to catch up on your thread!

DonH. Lots of thoughts having read your response. I need to wait to let my thoughts settle and will respond shortly!

[Ginger1]

Maybell, that was pretty awesome. I have decided to give up on dating for a while, but I think I need to print this out for when I do.

BELEIVE THE NEGATIVES is just about the best advice ever. I usually think because I am choosing to believe the negatives, I wasn't giving someone a fair chance. If a guy is, say arrogant (my biggest turnoff) I am going to believe he is arrogant, because my personality does not mesh well with arrogance. I need to believe that is who is and make my decision from there, but not expect it to change.

I used to think there might be something wrong with me (I'm sure I have my fair share of things wrong with me) but I think it's the guys I fall for and date. They are usually emotionally unavailable, some are upfront about their unavailability, others, not so much. So, my eyes are wide open now on the men I chose.

This particular lady you are describing. Not right for you. But she is who she is. She may be right for someone, not for you. You see the reasons. She doesn't follow through, or her son is her everything is no room for anyone else. Do I agree with that, or do you agree with the kid thing? Nope. But it's her choice. So she isn't right for you.

Yes, honesty and follow through are things I desire too. No games. But there are game players out there! And we just say "buh-bye" to those.

I decided to stop dating for a few reasons right now, and one being, I couldn't give someone the time they deserve. I was chatting with someone on a dating app, seems like a nice guy, but if we were to make a date, I have a free day in one month or longer right now as it is. I'm a bit over committed to school, my daughter's activities, some social events, and my ex and I's schedule is a bit wacky right now. It's just not fair to sit there and chat, and not be able to meet.

I think the dating culture has drastically changed thanks to electronic means of communicating. It's easy to ghost on text. us humans have an amazing way of detaching through text. Nothing feels real through it.

What you desire is not unreal. But you do need to be able to get through the crap before you get to the prize. And it takes some serious work these days. But what you desire really does exist.

[Surfer]

DonH

I read everything you Maybell said in detail, on my way to a meeting I drafted my response.

I have only commented below on points I can add to as Maybell is far more knowledgable and experienced at this - as you are - and in fairness, she has totally nailed many of these points.

LOWERING STANDARDS:

"we both had to change what we thought was important to us in order to find a person who feels really right."

Perhaps it's about "changing what we 'thought' was important to what 'actually' was important". Maybell makes a great point with height. Non-negotiable or not, some things are aesthetic, that's not vain or shallow - you have to be attracted. However height might be something that is it is not a deal breaker depending on who you are.

GHOSTING:

Agreed. If they ghost, they are flakey. Do you want flakey? No. If they change their minds fine they can pursue, you don't. Don't let them cross your mind. Drop the Rope (DTR).

SON IS HER LIFE:

She has a Son who is her life. That's good for both of them. But you don't really want that. Who says she might not get in touch. Could still catch up for dinner as friends. No need to shut her out. Seems like she's just not the one for you right now.

WHAT YOU WANT ETC

It's all there. Why not add those points to your goals? I want to find someone who [honesty, follow through....how will she feel etc]

Could add - I don't want flakey etc.

[kml]

Yes to believing people when they tell or show you who they are. (I actually dated a guy who said up front that he doesn't "do" relationships. I gave him bonus points for being honest upfront, had a handful of really sexy dates? Then moved on to find a guy who DOES do relationships. )

And yes to broadening your horizons to people who might not look on the surface like they meet your requirements. My ex was a highly educated and successful professional. My guy now(Mr Tall Dark and Handsome) lost 20+ years of his life to addiction, suffered all that you might imagine that could entail, smokes (I swore I'd never date a smoker), and although highly intelligent, has only a couple years of college.

And yet, in his sobriety, he is a better man than my ex. Kinder, more loving to me and my family, MUCH more self aware, and so grateful to be free of addiction that he wakes up happy every day. He treats me like a princess and is totally committed to our relationship in ways that my ex never was in 26 years together.

Don't be afraid to look outside your box.

[DonH]

Maybell I could so totally kiss you! I am so sorry it's taken me this long to get on my computer. I tried to at least post something from my phone but no luck. In any event, your earlier post for whatever reason missed the mark with me in many ways. Then you come out with this latest one and it's like you had laser focus! You are so spot on with so much of it and you have helped me more than you will likely know. I can't thank you enough!

So to start, GHOSTING. I had to Google it as I had no clue what that even was!!! I have to tell you, I had nearly the same level of lightbulb moment with Ghosting as I did when I first found DB 11 years ago! It has been that huge for me - I'm sending articles to so many of my friends about it. This is totally what has been happening to me - all of the time! Everywhere I turn - even sometimes with friends. Now, while it seems to be wide-spread and no one is immune, I have to wonder what it is about me and either my actions or the people I chose that I'm getting this over and over again?

BELIVE THE NEGATIVES - I again cannot agree more but this is so hard for me. With this women, I thought that right away. I said, "I see red flags with her" right away. HOWEVER, I keep getting told "Give them a chance" or "You can't always tell on the first date" etc. So that is what I was doing - giving her a chance while keeping my eyes open. SO THEN, after the first round of her not contacting, I had this friend in the middle so I told her that if her friend is not interested, it's totally fine, she doesn't have to worry or feel in the middle - that she should just tell me. The mutual friend says, "she's interested." And "that's just L" and stuff like that. She convinced me I was not seeing what I thought I was seeing. That has been the story of my life. It really has. I very, very often know what's best but then get talked out of it. I allow that far less but in many areas of life as I have the confidence I really do know what's best. In dating and R I am more apt to listen as I think I suck at it. Even at first MayBell had a different take.

WHY SO MANY GHOSTS? I remember when it was considered wrong to break up over a text message! Now somehow it's considered fine to just ignore the other person until they go away! Thing is, from where I sit, this it spreading like a virus. Someone has it done to them so they feel it's okay to do to the next. I'm just not like that. I want and try my best to handle the truth. I would so much love any of these women to just TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!! Not only how they feel and what they want but any tips for me. "It was a real turn off when you did blank" I WANT TO KNOW THAT so I don't do "blank" again with the next person. That may be a bit much to ask or expect but "I'm not feeling it anymore, best of luck to you" is not!

SETTLING. Maybell I would not call re-arranging your or my priorities to be "settling" I look at the sum total. One person might be "flashy" as you put it or prettier than the other. However, the less flashy guy or pretty girl might have a whole other set of great attributes. If the sum total is still where I want it, I'm not settling, it's when the sum total drops below the level I can accept that it is.

I really am trying to give everyone a chance. When I say someone is in "last place" I'm just saying she'd be the 3rd or 4th choice among the current list. My first choice lives 10 hours away and it's just not going to work. That's how I'm ranking - not in a "disgusting" way.

Perhaps what I'm finding is the pond, at least the one I'm fishing in, is full of ghosts and wrong (for me) women. However, I've been in many "ponds" - online, friends introducing, random meeting, work events, etc. My ghosting has not been restricted to only one of these - it's happened from all of them! My frustration started and brought me here because this same thing keeps happening. I meet mostly people who are married, in a R, too old or too young or living too far away. Then when I do meet one outside of that list either she's not interested or I'm not or the games get played. I like what I like and don't know how to change that. I like white, sweet wine (rarely drink but if I do...) but do not at all like red wine. How do I make myself like something I don't like? If there is no physical attraction or chemistry even if they are a great person, I can't make myself love them or if I do it would be a sexless R. I won't settle. If anything, I can give up and have on looks. Even age is not that huge to me. No matter how hot or drop dead beautiful she may be, if she has no brain and can't hold a conversation, I'm out. It just doesn't matter. That has to be there.

I both feel so much better to know it's not only me but also so hugely depressed that this is what the wold has become. Ghosting - who knew!!!! It also doesn't solve my problem. The clock keeps ticking, days keeping turning into weeks and weeks into months and I've still not found someone (in the past three years) to even get to a 5th date with. Is this just my life and I have to deal with it? Sadly as a whole, I did feel better when I didn't try - at least I didn't have this hurt. Then again, I didn't have what I wanted either. I feel like I keep coming back to full circle with this really used to be way easier and a whole lot more fun 25 years ago!

Maybell I can't thank you enough! You really can't know how much I appreciate such help. I could have paid a professional $200 and not gotten near what you gave me! Thank you!

[DonH]

I did not mean nor want to neglect everyone else who took so much time to write. It's just that Maybell was first and so blew me away that I wanted to address her first. Maybell I went back and re-read some of your thread. I had read it before but I often mix-up and confuse everyone on here. As I was leaving your thread I noticed you've been divorced or separated two years. I'm not one to be jealous and I'm not but it puts perspective on me. I've been divorced for close to 10 years now! TEN YEARS! I've been struggling with this other crap for 3. Did you just get luck with new guy? Perhaps you tried harder? Perhaps you are willing to accept less of what you thought you wanted than I am? Whatever it is I do enjey you some.

KML - Ya know what, I'd even take the sexy non-comittle types for a while. ANYHTNIG! Throw me a bone already life. I joked to a friend of mine when one of my last dates, going well all of a sudden she bolts off, that at least I could have gotten laid before she went nuts! I only have 2.5 dealbreakers. That means two firm and one that could have wiggle room. Above and beyond all is a smoker. Nope, just no, cannot do it. On top of it being beyond disgusting to me, I look at the type of person that often goes there and won't quit. Go ahead and flame me if you want to friends but it's a dealbreaker. Dishonesty is the other. The partial is tatoos. I simply can't do the big whoppers on the arms or legs or the "tramp stamps" etc. A little this or that on the ankle, etc. yeah, I can deal with that. The GF from three years ago had a well hidden one (that was a lot of fun to find - LOL) Even the last ghost has done. So beyond that, I really am open - tall, short, plump, skinny, blonde, dark, not a fan of redheads but not a deal breaker. I've lowered my bar so far just to go have fun and worry about longer term later but I can't even get that. Again, this is virgin terrirory for me. I look and act just as I did 20 years ago, have all my hair, in shape, everyone thinks I'm in my 30s or 40s - hell a 34 year old daughter of a friend asked me out on Monday - very flattering but she was shocked when I told her I was 53. What in the hell happened? But I digress, thanks for the comments KML.

And my new friend Ginger, yet once again you and I seem to be pretty much in the same place. Like you, I too wonder if it's who I'm attracted to? I really have to wonder. Why is it often women I'm not attracted to that are interested in me? Then again, I would totally have dated the 34 year old and even told her so - if I was 20 years younger - will even 10.

I guess in the end I do know much of what I want. My problem is I simply can't find it or if I do, or even think I do, all of the crap (ghosting, they are not interested, etc.) takes over.

I'm so glad I came back here. Could kick myself for not coming back sooner. If anyone else has thoughts or suggestions bring them on. Otherwise I'll post what happens next - whatever that may be. Just don't hold your breath as I seem to have long periods of nothing happening. Busy weekend though so who knows.

[Maybell]

Glad I could help!

I got TOTALLY lucky with My Guy. Mr. Fantastic moved out in April 2014, nine months after I found out he was having an affair with an intern in another country. I messed with that skein of crazy the whole time. Friends in our small town were hinting that they'd seen him out dating and I chose to not believe it; he's a manipulative booger. Some of the vets around here started urging me to drop the rope and in October 2014 I had a huge meltdown and screamed at him that I NEEDED SPACE. From there it was only a matter of time till we agreed to divorce. He never could say the word.

Anyway, from January 2015 when we agreed to divorce, I started really looking at the marriage, at other people's marriages, and at myself. I spent a LOT of time thinking about what I wanted and what I didn't want, how I got myself in the situation I was in, and where I wanted to be in the future. Then I got busy making that vision real.

I always knew I wanted a good long happy marriage. I guess you could say it's a bucket list item for me. I have never lived in any town longer than 6 years and never lived in a structure longer than 4. EVER. So I want the kind of stability that a long marriage represents. But when I set out to date, I didn't say that. I just said I wanted someone to explore my new town with, and I described a few of my hobbies. I set up an online profile in October 2015 just to see what it would be like. I chatted with a STACK of guys -- it was like hanging out in a candy shop. I went on a few dates. I met My Guy at the end of the second week. I never, ever expected to meet a keeper so quick. It was TOTAL LUCK and I question it almost every day. I do not take it for granted one bit. In a lot of ways I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. But so far, he seems as smitten as I am. And, you know, from his perspective, there's nothing miraculous about our meeting. He was divorced five years before I turned up.

The only thing I can point to for you is that when I read his description of what he was looking for, my thought was, "THAT'S ME." He is definitely the only profile I read that I fit it so clearly. And when I met him, I could have listened to him talk all day. And he adds to my quality of life every day -- makes me a better mom and a better, stronger person. When I was with Mr. Fantastic, I always deferred. With My Guy, I feel strong and capable even when I'm asking his advice.

I'm sorry if this was a hijack or a crazy gooey gush fest. I want you to feel like what you want is possible for you. A dear friend who married later in life gave me this guidance (I don't know if you have religious faith but I do...): God didn't make us to be incomplete. If you have the desire in you to be married, then there is a person out there for you. But you have to give the search up to faith (or God, or the universe... However you like to phrase these things). That's not just giving up on the desire, but a willingness to conduct yourself as though that person will arrive in your life, and your mission is to be as ready for her as you can be, by working to be your best self.

So for whatever all that is worth....

[Ginger1]

That was pretty awesome maybell, thank you for that.