Deadline for Decision 8/15

[Chippie]

Ugh. This evening we agreed to discuss Non Violent Communication.
I read an article on NVC. Then he launched into a conversation that was a monologue and said so much I didn't know when or how to respond.
I said "Well you said a lot and let me try to see if I got it all."
Of course I didn't get it all. But what he said was regardless of whether we stay together we should try to behave in a mutually beneficial way. He said he's not happy.

We've also made an offer on a house. So doing that is very confusing to me because I don't see why we would be buying a house when we're considering separating. He said he wants to make sure that the children have a place to stay and that we each have good places to live.
Then I said, well I wouldn't think we'd be getting a four bedroom place - instead we'd get two small condos or something instead.
I said I didn't really understand our finances and it seems like we should do one thing at a time- first figure out whether we're staying together.
Then figure out our housing.
He said well "You're almost 50 you should be able to figure out your finances, what would do if we were separated." I said we'll I'd get a financial advisor.
I found myself very very triggered by the conversation. btw.
I said you aren't happy.
I'm not happy either. Then he added - I'm happy - just not with us. I said "right, me too - I'm not happy with us in our relationship but I'm happy in other areas. "
He said "I don't feel safe around you and I don't see a way to feel safe" At this point I felt really irritated at his refusal to take any responsibility for his feelings or his part ever. For his broken record tape.
For his refusal to go to marriage therapy for any reasonable length of time.
For his constant noticing of negative stuff about me. (Tonight was that I put the two different types of coffee beans into two jars instead of leaving them in the ziplock bags. He didn't want me to mix them.

I didn't mix them.
He wanted to know why I "touched them" after he told me not to. I said I put them in jars and they're not mixed at all. He made a 'whatever' expression.
Anyway, he had given me a to- do list with the children before he went out and then was disappointed that I wasn't ready to meet him when he returned - but they weren't ready for bed yet. Feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I felt so irritated and upset and I could feel myself losing it so I stormed out and made a comment about how it would be great if he would be committed to our marriage enough to see a counselor and try to find solutions instead of always looking for problems. When we get into these conversations I naturally point out how he could try more... but how do I do the t'ai chi action of not taking the opposite side.

How do I 180 these conversations about how he doesn't think it will work but he doesn't know... he doesn't feel safe... he's not happy... he hasn't made up his mind... etc.
I know I'm all over the place.
I wonder if anyone can help me refocus and restrategize.
I've stopped wearing any ring at all on my ring finger.
He stopped wearing his and i grew out of mine and had been wearing other odd ball rings.

[RosaLinda]

Sorry Chippie, for not checking in on you for so long; I hope you're doing as well as can be expected. I know you're spinning hon; that's natural when it feels like your whole life is blowing up, especially because your spouse is going through a mid life crisis. They are so contrary. They change their minds constantly, lie constantly, can be totally irrational. When I complained that my now ex-husband was totally contrary and changed his mind constantly, sometimes two or three times in the period of less than one conversation, my DB coach Chuck compared the mind of a person experiencing a mid-life crisis to that of someone caught up in raging rapids in a tiny rubber raft. It was hard for him to think clearly and concentrate, because his thoughts were racing out of control.

Last fall he was on some cocktail of meds that made him my dreamboat but also he slept all the time. lol ....... would it be helpful if I asked him what meds he's on now? He might get suspicious... but I might be able to find out.

By dreamboat, I guess you mean you had a great sexual relationship fueled by the medication? On the one hand, I think a wife SHOULD know what medications her husband is on, but on the other hand, your husband does not consider you a married couple, and will probably get angry and accuse you of being nosy if you ask him. I just asked because, like I mentioned, the side effects of both testosterone and thyroid replacement hormone therapy include emotional instability and might account for his mood swings. If he is on either of these, he needs to have his blood levels checked by his doctor. But mid-life crisis also causes mood swings, so who knows what is causing your husband's!

How do I 180 these conversations about how he doesn't think it will work but he doesn't know... he doesn't feel safe... he's not happy... he hasn't made up his mind... etc.

It's like having an extremely controlling roommate. I don't want a roommate. I want a sex life and a plan to grow old with someone who is committed. I'm tweaking my behavior to get closer to 180 but I feel like I'm still at his beck and call. He certainly has me wrapped around his finger. If he wanted to suddenly be back with me I'd go for it.

Well, that's the thing. We LBSs don't want roommates, we want loving husbands and wives. Unfortunately, our spouses do not feel the same. When I first joined this forum, someone (Cadet or URWorthy maybe) used to say that our marriages were over at bomb drop, we just did not know it yet. It totally p!ssed me off at the time; I was NOT ready to hear and accept that. But learned that it is true. Our spouses do not want to be married to us any longer at that point. They may be ambivalent, and waver back and forth, keeping us on the hook and not really letting us go completely, but in reality, they are done. It used to be quoted that a mid-life crisis lasts 3 to 5 years on average, but I think the current belief is 3 to 7 years, up to 10 years, or even longer.

My ex has been depressed for the past 20 years, but really whacked out on me and started exhibiting MLC traits in 2007, and gave me the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech on December 26, 2009. And still is in a full blown crisis, poor man. So it's been what, 6 to 9 years? I truly believed that one day he would wake up and realize all of the damage he did to our family, and that I was his steadfast loving wife, that I was worth 100 of his Russian Tramps, and that he would really love me again. As his wife. Has not happened, and I don't want it to happen now, being perfectly happy as a single woman who has worked hard to recognize and try to fix all the crappy co-dependent stuff about me that contributed to the demise of my marriage.

That's all you can do, Chipster. To work on yourself at this point, and be true to yourself and protect yourself and your girls. You cannot change your husband, but you can pray that he wakes up and sees your changes are real (are they??), and loves you again. When he says all that stupid stuff, that he is not sure whether it will work out and does not feel safe and is not happy, all you can do is validate his feelings. To let him know that you recognize how he feels, but not necessarily to take responsibility for his feelings because his feelings are often irrational, but you don't want to tell him that!

I'm not sure if you would consider this a 180, but maybe it is since you say you come back at him so strongly sometimes, and do stuff like pouring water on his bed (!!). Maybe validating his feelings and then shutting up would be a 180!

If someone asked you if you received a package that they sent you, and you answered just, yes, I got it, that would not mean that you like the contents. You are letting your husband know that you "got it" but not that you like or take responsibility for "it."

Like I told you, I used "I'm sorry you feel like that" over and over, but since you don't want to say that, maybe just try saying something that reiterates and confirms his feelings. "You seem to be saying you feel angry... ambivalent.... confused.... hurt.... disrespected... sad... betrayed." And when he says something nasty to you, you could tell him "that made me feel confused... disrespected... hurt" etc.

I still like "I'm sorry you feel like that" best because it sums up MY feelings perfectly

Here's the takeaway - I DO HAVE A PART - I always knew I had a part but I'm seeing now that my part isn't the part I thought.

I didn't make him do the things he did or vice versa. But my part is being overly dependent on him and his opinion. Being a people pleaser. Focusing on myself is a very good thing for me to work on. Another part I can own is my self pity and the trash talking of him. I simultaneously want to prove to all of you how bad he is and also find out how to get him to ACTUALLY follow me around like a puppy. I have trash talked him to his mother, sister, aunt and many of my friends. Trash talking is harsh on me - I've told them my angle of his trashy behavior, complained a lot but never left which is exhausting for everyone. I've told you some things about him to try to paint a story - it looks worse here because I've told you all the worst stuff... mainly it's the daily irritability.. that is grating... But then again his own aunt said most people would have left a long time ago and she loves him like I do... actually at this point, more than I do.

I'm so glad that you are recognizing your part. Now forgive yourself and fix what you can. There are lots of reasons not to trash talk your husband, not the least of which is, if you reconcile your marriage, all of your friends and relatives will know all the bad stuff about him. Some DBers are of the opposite opinion. But I think trash talking is not good for your soul and heart. The best thing we can do is to forgive and move forward.

I like the direction you're going with your posts. It's time for you to take a journey without him. No need to make conclusions about where that journey is taking you, whether it will work with him or not, etc. It's ok to be in limbo. Just learn to live with the moment, with the good things in your life you do have, and being true to your best self. GAL. 180. Have some fun now and then. Journal and post. See your IC. Take a break from all of it now and then. Keep breathing. All good stuff.

Ugh I hate writing because I think it makes it clear that I should leave. But I'm not sure. I really am very confused.

I agree with Zues126. You're doing well. You probably cannot see it, but we can!

Only you can decide if and when you should end your marriage hon. It's hard because you want your old life and your old husband back. Give it time, like Zues says. Tell us what fun things you did for yourself and your kids this weekend. Any art projects? Was the offer you guys put on that house accepted? I sure hope not!

[Chippie]

Thank you Linda!

So he went on vacation with our daughters on a road trip.
I have to work so I couldn't go.
I offered to meet them for a weekend and he said no. On the day before he left he said that there was going to be a gal he didn't know well at the campground.
They went to college together and had mutual friends that he was visiting.
Well it turns out there were not mutual friends that they were visiting and she wasn't just at the campground she was at the same campsite with him.

They spent all day together with her two kids and our two kids and over night at this place.
He drove her car and he filled her car with gas with our money.
He called me and told me he was excited about working on this house that we just went into contract on and he wanted me to know that he was excited to do this with me but he also needs to have his space and not have me get so jealous.
I said OK But he said all this before I found out that there wasn't any other couple and they were sharing the camp site, etc.
Who does all that with someone they don't know well?
And my part was that I friended her on facebook and then asked my 10 year old daughter who had me on speaker phone if they met the other couple...
I was wondering why I was only seeing this womans' kids and this woman in the car when my daughter facetimed me.
I'm not sure if this makes sense the way I'm telling it out of order.

So it started to feel good with us for a split second and then he either lied to me or just very much mislead me about his plans.
He grabbed the phone from my daughter and said he was driving and I had no right to interrogate our daughter who clearing didn't even want to talk with me and I was creepy and sick and needed help.
So I get that my behavior wasn't perfect but then again he's demanding trust and then deliberately misleading me about his plans.
I'm quite positive he'd be very unhappy for me to go on a camping trip in a beautiful place with a dad and his kids and our kids and I said he was just at the campground (not a shared site.)
It was very hurtful to me.
And after hanging up my daughters phone he texted me how awful I was and just as he was getting hopeful about us working out and that if I didn't apologize for my behavior he would prefer to separate.
I thought about trying to explain how hurtful he was being to not tell me he had a plan to go with a single woman on a camping trip!
I keep slipping I thinking maybe it's ok but no, it's not.
But logic and talk never have worked with him so I just didn't respond.
He wrote a bunch more texts saying the same thing. Then nothing until tonight.
He posted all these beautiful photos of the location of their campsite - I've never seen a more magical sight - never camped somewhere like that with him - Then tonight a bunch of hours later with me only calling our daughters but not him.
He texts several other paranoid things he's mad at me for..
I start to think that in fact he does want to repair the relationshp but doesn't want to get blamed for the massively (in my opinion) wrong choice to hide the true nature of this camping trip from me.
I have continued to ignore his texts.
I can't be with someone AND sign off on their deception.
He wants his cake and to eat it too.
They may not have been sexually intimate but they were surely emotionally intimate.
Earlier in the day he promised not to have sex with anyone without discussing it with me first.
I assumed that meant kissing too but clearly he's being very careful with his words so I can think one thing but he didn't actually say that one thing.
In the texts tonight he asks me if I really want to blow up our relationship by talking to his aunt.

I guess since I always try to explain the error of my and his ways - not talking at all and taking no bait is a 180. He clearly wants to engage me in an argument so he can't out talk me.
I'm not sure what to do about being in contract on a house together but maybe that will still be better than renting to have bought one house?
I have no idea.
The mortgage is much smaller than rent.

I am reading the Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up the japanese art of decluttering.
It's helping me to get rid of everything with holes and demand only the best of the best of my stuff remain because I deserve only the best.
If I AM going to leave him I need that attitude.
Though truly that isn't what I want but going the way I've been going has shown him he can get away with murder and just control me while he acts badly and he can blame me for his feeling bad when he does something stupid.
If there's a way to save the marriage that also makes the marriage a good marriage to begin with then I'm in otherwise I need to wise up and strengthen up and get out of dodge.
Easier said than done with kids etc.
Any thoughts?

[Chippie]

oh one more thing. I told him they didn't have to facetime me in car later and when they did, I asked to talk with him and in front of that gal he says he's busy pumping gas (in her minivan) and then says he's busy driving and he'll talk to me tomorrow. He does this in front of her so that made me feel bad. Well he probably didn't do anything with her but he lied to me and then blamed me for asking my daughter where the other couple was. Huh. Projection.

[JujuB]

Hi chippie

I am sorry you are going through this. I really am.

My best advise to you is this... You can love your husband, but love yourself more. Talk to a lawyer. Only do what is in your best interest to do. Stop walking on egg shells.

I really, really believe that there is little you can do or say once your marriage gets to this point. Your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. He is going to twist everything you do and say to justify actions that will only serve him anyway. It is impossible to debate or find logic to his irrationality. don't waste your time trying. Just keep some pride, see a lawyer do what's best for you.

If they truly want to come back, then they will make it happen irregardless of your validation techniques. If they don't truly want to be with you then your marriage has absolutely no chance of succeeding.

We are not light houses to be s... All over. We are people with feelings that deserve respect from our spouses. And they will only treat us, the way we allow them to treat us. And quite frankly,many do you want someone in your life that is capable of treating people that way anyhow?

Be careful and protect yourself. Dont let him bait. You don't have to live like this. Take your life back from him.

[Chippie]

I have an appointment with a lawyer on Friday. I don't know what to say or ask...

I did not respond to any of his mean texts this week and that drew him in because I never do that.

We are in contract on a house and the inspection contingency ends thursday. And tonight he emails me this: Chippie*, if you're able we need to have a practical conversation about housing, 3rd Ave and Drexel.

We should also talk more about our relationship, as long as that can be done without too much struggle.

I would like to be able to plan and work things out with you if you're able, I realize you may not be.

Let me know. We should talk tonight.


So I prepare to talk about the relationship first and depending on how that went talk about the housing. And he launched into housing talk after a warm intro. Then he starts telling me chores I need to do and gets dictatorial. I say I want to clear the air on the relationship first. He says "You bushwacked me" And so I say well then let me read one small sentence. He says fine I'll grit my teeth and bear it. I say oh nevermind. Forget it. I hang up. Then we go in a loop with me asking when we can talk about the relationship and he saying I had all last week. I keep asking about the future chances to talk not the past. And then he refuses and says forget it let's cancel the home purchase. SEnd them an email tomorrow. I say can't we talk about this. He says he has to go watch a movie with our kids. So he could spend all day talking with a gal he claims to hardly know but refuses to talk with me for more than ten minutes and zero time about the relationship.

Wow, now I'm just as crazy as I thought he was. I've become a raving lunatic again. I just thought he had come around and actually cared to work it out like he said but it lasted all of two minutes. You're right, take care of myself. He thinks we should still get the house even if we split but he wanted me to write him and say to do that... or something.. Alright I guess I need rest. First step in taking care of myself.,....more tomorrow.

[Cadet]

We should also talk more about our relationship, as long as that can be done without too much struggle.

STOP having relationship talks - asking for them - wanting them - it will all backfire and not bring the results you are looking for.

[Chippie]

So what do I do when he is out camping with my kids and a single mom and her kids and I've been prevented from going on vacation with them. Do I back out of the contract to buy a house with him? Do I leave? I asked him only for him to do unto me as he would have me do unto him - golden rule and he said take care of your own behavior. I already know he doesn't take care of his. I said Sorry, I can't live that way. So he said OK we break up then. I said OK. I have to go back to work now. And I was looking for some financial info and found an email from him in 2013 talking about finances and divorce and buying a property. I said "Stop this bullshit of talking about divorce and an investment property in the same email. I won't entertain these talks." He's gotten much worse in 3 years. He seems like a lunatic to me. Then I went to a comedy show tonight an - an open mic , folks were so depraved. I thought wow I thought my husband was messed up but these folks sound so depressing and awful. I'm 48 how could I ever date again. Maybe I should just go along to get along. Tomorrow is the inspection expiration date and I have no idea whether to pull out of the sale. He's also making threats to get his way but he now has his own room and does even more hurtful stuff than he used to do so many I should run fast and embrace being a single woman.
Help!

[ForGump]

I would back out. Clear up your relationship before jumping into a financial entanglement. Do you love him? You can date again at 48. You'll be even better at it this time around. Don't be held back by fear -- only by love.

[Zues126]

Disagree with ForGump. Emotions are not a good compass to steer through these waters, they are too haywire. Thoughts are not a good compass, they are rationalizations from emotions.

Resist the urge to DO something, particularly if it is to force a change or impact your H. Instead let him go on his journey, believe none of what he says and half of what he does. Did you ever read my card game in my original post? He is at his worst right now. No more R talks as was said.

Instead continue on your journey. Don't predict the future. Focus on the present. This is so important. Hard, we want to know where we are going, when we are going to get where we want. We want what we want when we want it. My D forced me to learn the skills of being appreciative in the moment for what I have, and not needing to hoard security and control over what I couldn't. I had always been told that, but had never really gotten it, but this is a MUST.

I wouldn't buy a house with him if I were you. You need to set some boundaries. Not to control him, or force a change. But to protect yourself from what he might do in the future. Give those some thought, it doesn't have to be done today. Maybe post about it.

Have you read DB/DR?
What are you doing to detach?
What are you doing to GAL?
What are you doing to 180?
What are your DB goals for you?

Let's hear as much talk about these things as about your H. The more you focus on your journey, your growth, your opportunities, your behavior, things you can control, and things you can enjoy in this moment today...the better you'll feel and the better you'll be able to position yourself to make healthy decisions as time marches on.