Foucs on Me and my Boys 4

[PsySara]

I...do not like your wife. Meanwhile they are sooooo lucky to have you as their dad. You are showing them constancy, stability and grace in the face of unbelievable cruelty and selfishness (from your WW.) While I understand you are trying to be the good guy here I also think some firm boundaries need to be in place. I am not sure if you are transferring or not but I would hold off. Why make it so easy for her to cake eat?

[SH_]

Jim, I have debated whether to share my thoughts on this post or not this evening, and I finally decided to do so in hopes to give you something to chew on and understand that it is from an outside perspective of this conflict that you have clearly been having about a move to Toronto. There are several themes that run consistent in your threads and story that you may want to look back at. Also, you have been given some pretty consistent advice in this community as well as from folks that you interact with and share with us about, yet you are still trying to convince yourself or someone that you need to move and be close to your STBXW.

JK, what is the real reason for this?
Is it that you still feel that if you moved there previously that you would not be in this sitch?
Is it that you want to be closer to your W?
Is it that you are fearful of raising 5 young sons all on your own?
What is it that is keeping you up at night with this decision?

Some thoughts from your post

So this has to be more MLC for her than WAW or waywardness, or who knows, a combination of all 3.

You have been in this community long enough to know that this does not matter. It does not change your sitch, and spending much more time trying to label it is a cheesless tunnel.

5 days now that STBX has not called the boys to say hello to them. I know that she is still in Toronto because she made a charge on the CC yesterday. I thought maybe she was on vacation with OM.

Why are you still concerned with what she is dong or who she is doing it with. You need to try to stop putting anymore thought energy into her at all. Save the energy for you and your boys.

I was on the phone with a buddy of mine and I walked into one of the boys rooms, S7 asked if it was mom and I told him no it was my friend. I asked S7 if he wanted to speak with him and S7 said yes. My friend has an S8 and the two boys have met several times.

I can see that my boys just want to interact and get some attention. I am glad I gave him the phone for a few minutes to interact with another adult male.

This is great to recognize. This is a trait that makes you an exceptional father. Continue to identify the needs of your sons, especially in providing positive attention. Young children love it and benefit from it greatly.

V,

I definitely have a lot of thinking to do. The path that I take with the boys will be a critical decision.

It will be a critical decision. It is one that you have clearly been wrestling with for sometime now. You have been given lots of advice and feedback on this decision, and much of it seems to be the same advice, but it is contrary to the thoughts that you have shared frequently.
Why? what is everyone missing when they encourage you to not make the move?

I continue to think back to some of the statements that STBX has said when I first was getting my transfer. She was trying to negotiate a short term plan. She would say things like you can have the boys after 3 or 4 years just let me raise my baby during his formidable years.

Why does anything she say weigh into the decision?
And this statement seems odd. What mother, biological or adoptive would negotiate just raising children for certain years.

Let me share an experience that I have watched unfold in my own life.
I have a sister that was desperate to have children and found out that she could not. She then made the decision to adopt. But it had to be a baby. She found a baby, but there was a sibling and the deal was that they both needed to be together. So she took them both in. Fast forward a number of years and some behavior issues with the older sibling and she found a way to get him sent off and the state took over the care of the child.
My sister is not exactly well by the standards of the rest of my family, but my point here, is that her love for her adopted son is not what most of us would expect from a mother.

How well is your wife? How attached is she to your sons? Your posts of late would indicate the she may be a little more focused on her other activities and the boys are not the priority. Would this be correct?

Another thing she said was if one of them wants to come live with you I won't stop them.

Another statement by your W that is weighing into your decision ?
Why?

When I had the transfer in motion we discussed how things would work if we were living in the same city. I asked if she was going to come to my place to watch the boys and get them ready for school and she stated that she was not willing to get up at the crack of dawn so that I could go to work. I said fine, I will find some other means to ensure the boys would get to school.

It is starting to look like the puppet strings from your W are attached to your decision making here.
Why?

Lastly, she stated that if I were to ever find a job opportunity out of state or a longer distance away from her she would not stop me from going and taking the boys with me.

Again, her statements dictating your decision ?
Do you see a pattern here?

I think about these 4 statements a lot. To me, this does not sound like someone who made a conscious choice to adopt 5 boys and commit to raising them. It is clear her morals do not match mine.

You are doing a lot of thinking about what she has said and making determinations about what she thinks, her morals and what she will do in the future.

You know better JimKao. This is exactly what you have been counseled, advised, encouraged etc against doing for your own good.
Why are you still doing it my friend?
Why?

My IC said I need to really think this through so that STBX does not abandon the boys a second time if we move up there. The only sure thing I know is that I will be there for them even if she does.

Your IC is giving the same advice so many others have given you. How many more folks need to share the advice so that you can take a step back and make a good decision for this?
We know that you will be there for those boys. Make a decision so that while you are there for them, that you can provide for them and care for them. Moving to Toronto does not sound like the best option for you to do all of that based on what you have shared with us.
Is there additional information that you have chosen not to share that has so many providing feedback to you with a lack of information?

I have a friend who has 3 biological children and 2 adopted. He has been D for 5 years now. His xW moved in with her OM 4 months after their D. His oldest resents her and my friend says that so do all of his other kids now. I don't want my boys resenting my STBX. I know that is out of my control and that the boys will feel what they feel when they get older based on her actions.

How does moving closer to her change whether your boys will resent her or not? Only her decisions will influence that. This does not seem to add any value to what you are trying to decide here? It may actually be blurring things as it sounds like you want to control this situation by moving. Which you know it does not control it at all.

For me, I always hold myself accountable for my actions, which is probably why I take a long time to make decisions and overanalyze sometimes.

Amen brother. Now this makes sense and you should print this out and read it the moment you start to analyze this decision again. Or should we say, overanalyze this decision? You will be accountable to the outcomes of the decision. You don't want to make an emotional decision, because we know how that typically turns out for most of us, right?

In this case though, I cannot allow her to runaway from her responsibilities. I will have to make my assessment after the D is finalized to see how to proceed and minimize the loss that the boys will feel while protecting myself and the boys financially also.

How is it your responsibility to make her take responsibility??
She chooses whether to be a mother to her sons or not. Not you.
Thinking that you can do this is is controlling.
This is not realistic.
This is not in your power to do, not matter how you hope a move to be closer would influence future outcomes.
And this just makes no sense after all that you have learned and been advised as it relates to DBing my friend.

It is time for you cut the puppet strings that are attached between your thoughts and your STBXW.
It is time to start thinking like a single father that needs to raise 5 boys.
Ask yourself these questions.
Where will you live that can provide you with the best opportunities to financially support and raise those boys?
Where will you live that you can have the best opportunity for moral support from family members and close friends?
Where will you live that you can help guide, teach, love and create a safe environment for those young boys to grow up in?

These are the questions you need to answer. These are the items that you should analyze. These are the things that will guide you to making the right decision.
Notice how nothing your STBXW says or does has any influence.
Let her make her decisions. She chose to run to another country with an OM and do whatever it is she is doing. Leave her be. If she chooses to be a mother, she knows where the boys are. She knows what she should do to be there for them and be a part of their lives.

Jim, I hope I am not coming off too harsh, but you need a sledgehammer to the noggin, because you have been given some pretty consistent feedback and I pray that you can make the best decision for you and your boys.
You have been through a lot and as I have said to you before, the task you are faced with is not an easy one, but you have been a stand up man and father and that is more than many others in your situation would do.

I pray that you may receive the inspiration that you need to guide your family to a good place.

Take care my friend. I am here supporting you and want more than anything to see you have peace and success with those young sons of yours.

[dream]

Well said, SH.

[J5K]

New Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newpost&Board=20

[Vanilla]

Jim

I once posted to you that I thought your WW was one of these women who like babies (infants) not children.

I am still of that view although recently I backed off on putting it in writing to you.

Jim, sadly there is nothing, truly nothing you can do to make another, your WW particularly accountable when agreements aren't honoured then only legal action can help.

You are a dad in millions.

V

[J5K]

V,

If you did post that once, I apologize, I do not recall. That type of comment would stick with me.

After tonight's phone conversation with STBX though you are spot on as she made the statement of why won't you let me raise my baby with no comment about the other boys.

I posted more detail on my new thread.

Thank you for the compliment also! I owe you and many others on this board many thanks and hugs!

(((((V)))))

[J5K]

Journaling:

I wake up this morning. It is exchange day for the boys. I am on a conference call. STBX calls at 8:15 am asking if I can meet her closer to the border to do the exchange. She states she is not well and cannot continue to do this on a weekly basis. I said I understand it is tough. This is what was agreed upon. Told her I was on a conference call and would call her back.

Work call is done and she calls again asking where I am, told her I was still at home and getting the boys ready. She said she is waiting at the border and did not cross yet then started to spew on why can't we just get this D completed and split assets. Also asked when will psychologist be done with the custody evaluation. I stated I do not know.

Then she started in on well you can keep the kids, you win, I can't keep driving 10 hours every week and why won't you meet me halfway. I stated that I have to work and cannot meet until later or you can pick them up at the agreed time of 5:30 pm from the apartment. I stated that I thought I was being flexible by meeting you mid day so you don't have to drive at night.

STBX started more spewing then and of course I failed at DB this morning by bringing up the R. She continues to say she will never forgive and I pushed back and she pushed back and multiple issues.

I brought up OM and trip she went on back in March. She said well that is what I needed at that time. Then she said she is not seeing that OM anymore and now it is a different one.

In short, the same swirl for an hour. I get the boys ready and we meet at the mall at noon. I get out of the car and tried to mend fences a bit and said I understand why you needed the trip. She was like oh now you do. I said yes. Left it at that.

She goes to hug the boys and S2 does not even give her the time of day. STBX looks at me and says see you did this. It takes S2 two days before he warms up to me. I looked at her and said I don't know what to say.

S2 does not react that way with me. I am not happy that is the way her reacts to her, makes me sad but she put us in this situation now.

Both of us get a little worked up again and she says I hate you and am going to bring the boys back when I want next Monday. I said we have an agreement on a set time and she said it is not filed with the court. I said OK. She continues to say I am not flexible and I snapped back with a remark and she says I am having someone else drop off the kids next time and then says I may not bring them back at all. Then she says she is going to bring her boyfriend next time with her and she is going to have him kick my a$$. And of course I said just bring them all (not a good choice of words by me).

Then S7 makes a comment and tells me leave us alone and to go live with my parents. I caught part of it and asked him again to repeat what he said. STBX repeats what he said. I sternly told him to be careful on how he talks to me and asked him to give me the book I bought him this past weekend. STBX tries to stop me and so I go around to the passenger seat of the van and open the door and asked S7 who am I and he said dad. I sternly said you do not speak to your father that way and for your punishment you do not get to take the book with you.

I need to improve on ensuring I do not do this in front of the boys as she continues to lure me in to these situations. Not a very good day for any of us in my family.

[J5K]

SH

Here are my responses.

Jim, I have debated whether to share my thoughts on this post or not this evening, and I finally decided to do so in hopes to give you something to chew on and understand that it is from an outside perspective of this conflict that you have clearly been having about a move to Toronto. There are several themes that run consistent in your threads and story that you may want to look back at. Also, you have been given some pretty consistent advice in this community as well as from folks that you interact with and share with us about, yet you are still trying to convince yourself or someone that you need to move and be close to your STBXW.

JK, what is the real reason for this?
Is it that you still feel that if you moved there previously that you would not be in this sitch?
Is it that you want to be closer to your W?
Is it that you are fearful of raising 5 young sons all on your own?
What is it that is keeping you up at night with this decision?

Yes, I feel I would not be in this sitch. As of today she stated she wanted to cake eat and date while we were still separated.

I want to be closer to her for the boys and not for me. When I try to negotiate with her to take action and get things finalized she does not want to budge (her terms only) so the conversations don't go anywhere. We haven't had any discussions about this unless she brings it up.

Some thoughts from your post

So this has to be more MLC for her than WAW or waywardness, or who knows, a combination of all 3.

You have been in this community long enough to know that this does not matter. It does not change your sitch, and spending much more time trying to label it is a cheesless tunnel.

Yes agree, her circus her monkeys.

5 days now that STBX has not called the boys to say hello to them. I know that she is still in Toronto because she made a charge on the CC yesterday. I thought maybe she was on vacation with OM.

Why are you still concerned with what she is dong or who she is doing it with. You need to try to stop putting anymore thought energy into her at all. Save the energy for you and your boys.

Agree, I spend time with my kids and do activities with them, GAL with them and without them.

I was on the phone with a buddy of mine and I walked into one of the boys rooms, S7 asked if it was mom and I told him no it was my friend. I asked S7 if he wanted to speak with him and S7 said yes. My friend has an S8 and the two boys have met several times.

I can see that my boys just want to interact and get some attention. I am glad I gave him the phone for a few minutes to interact with another adult male.

This is great to recognize. This is a trait that makes you an exceptional father. Continue to identify the needs of your sons, especially in providing positive attention. Young children love it and benefit from it greatly.

V,

I definitely have a lot of thinking to do. The path that I take with the boys will be a critical decision.

It will be a critical decision. It is one that you have clearly been wrestling with for sometime now. You have been given lots of advice and feedback on this decision, and much of it seems to be the same advice, but it is contrary to the thoughts that you have shared frequently.
Why? what is everyone missing when they encourage you to not make the move?

The reasons I am considering moving is because I have lived my life here. I can raise my boys anywhere in the world, does not matter. When I was younger I traveled a lot between Chicago and Toronto because I was bored out of my mind in Michigan.

Here are the positives for me.
Start a new life without STBX and meet new people.
Still continue to be the best dad I can be.
STBX gets the benefit of co-parenting in the same city and the boys do not have to travel back and forth.

When I am with my boys in Toronto my focus will be on them.
When I do not have them I want to be able to live life also. I feel I need a change for myself and not for STBX.

Of course this will all depend on the outcome of the decision on custody and the financials because even when I try to talk to STBX about financials she only wants to discuss what is in her favor so I have to ride this rollercoaster to the end.

I continue to think back to some of the statements that STBX has said when I first was getting my transfer. She was trying to negotiate a short term plan. She would say things like you can have the boys after 3 or 4 years just let me raise my baby during his formidable years.

Why does anything she say weigh into the decision?
And this statement seems odd. What mother, biological or adoptive would negotiate just raising children for certain years.

I agree. But I want to build a friendship with her after the D for my boys sake and nothing else.

Let me share an experience that I have watched unfold in my own life.
I have a sister that was desperate to have children and found out that she could not. She then made the decision to adopt. But it had to be a baby. She found a baby, but there was a sibling and the deal was that they both needed to be together. So she took them both in. Fast forward a number of years and some behavior issues with the older sibling and she found a way to get him sent off and the state took over the care of the child.
My sister is not exactly well by the standards of the rest of my family, but my point here, is that her love for her adopted son is not what most of us would expect from a mother.

How well is your wife? How attached is she to your sons? Your posts of late would indicate the she may be a little more focused on her other activities and the boys are not the priority. Would this be correct?

As far as I can tell yes, she focuses on herself but again that is just my perspective.

Another thing she said was if one of them wants to come live with you I won't stop them.

Another statement by your W that is weighing into your decision ?
Why?

This is not weighing in on my decision. This is just a statement she made that concerns me about her connection to the boys.

When I had the transfer in motion we discussed how things would work if we were living in the same city. I asked if she was going to come to my place to watch the boys and get them ready for school and she stated that she was not willing to get up at the crack of dawn so that I could go to work. I said fine, I will find some other means to ensure the boys would get to school.

It is starting to look like the puppet strings from your W are attached to your decision making here.
Why?

It was just a discussion we had. I can make my own plans on how to care for them, when we initially had this conversation I was more attached to STBX.

Lastly, she stated that if I were to ever find a job opportunity out of state or a longer distance away from her she would not stop me from going and taking the boys with me.

Again, her statements dictating your decision ?
Do you see a pattern here?

They are not dictating my decisions, yes I see a pattern of what she is trying to do.

I think about these 4 statements a lot. To me, this does not sound like someone who made a conscious choice to adopt 5 boys and commit to raising them. It is clear her morals do not match mine.

You are doing a lot of thinking about what she has said and making determinations about what she thinks, her morals and what she will do in the future.

You know better JimKao. This is exactly what you have been counseled, advised, encouraged etc against doing for your own good.
Why are you still doing it my friend?
Why?

I am overanalyzing but not taking any action at this time. Things need to be on my terms and I am sure this will be perceived as controlling to STBX.

My IC said I need to really think this through so that STBX does not abandon the boys a second time if we move up there. The only sure thing I know is that I will be there for them even if she does.

Your IC is giving the same advice so many others have given you. How many more folks need to share the advice so that you can take a step back and make a good decision for this?
We know that you will be there for those boys. Make a decision so that while you are there for them, that you can provide for them and care for them. Moving to Toronto does not sound like the best option for you to do all of that based on what you have shared with us.
Is there additional information that you have chosen not to share that has so many providing feedback to you with a lack of information?

No, I think I have share more info than most, I am an open book. Maybe too much of a nice guy.

I have a friend who has 3 biological children and 2 adopted. He has been D for 5 years now. His xW moved in with her OM 4 months after their D. His oldest resents her and my friend says that so do all of his other kids now. I don't want my boys resenting my STBX. I know that is out of my control and that the boys will feel what they feel when they get older based on her actions.

How does moving closer to her change whether your boys will resent her or not? Only her decisions will influence that. This does not seem to add any value to what you are trying to decide here? It may actually be blurring things as it sounds like you want to control this situation by moving. Which you know it does not control it at all.

Not trying to control her. Just looking to make a more normal future for the boys.

For me, I always hold myself accountable for my actions, which is probably why I take a long time to make decisions and overanalyze sometimes.

Amen brother. Now this makes sense and you should print this out and read it the moment you start to analyze this decision again. Or should we say, overanalyze this decision? You will be accountable to the outcomes of the decision. You don't want to make an emotional decision, because we know how that typically turns out for most of us, right?

Agree which is why I need to just focus on today.

In this case though, I cannot allow her to runaway from her responsibilities. I will have to make my assessment after the D is finalized to see how to proceed and minimize the loss that the boys will feel while protecting myself and the boys financially also.

How is it your responsibility to make her take responsibility??
She chooses whether to be a mother to her sons or not. Not you.
Thinking that you can do this is is controlling.
This is not realistic.
This is not in your power to do, not matter how you hope a move to be closer would influence future outcomes.
And this just makes no sense after all that you have learned and been advised as it relates to DBing my friend.

It is time for you cut the puppet strings that are attached between your thoughts and your STBXW.
It is time to start thinking like a single father that needs to raise 5 boys.
Ask yourself these questions.
Where will you live that can provide you with the best opportunities to financially support and raise those boys?
Where will you live that you can have the best opportunity for moral support from family members and close friends?
Where will you live that you can help guide, teach, love and create a safe environment for those young boys to grow up in?

These are the questions you need to answer. These are the items that you should analyze. These are the things that will guide you to making the right decision.
Notice how nothing your STBXW says or does has any influence.
Let her make her decisions. She chose to run to another country with an OM and do whatever it is she is doing. Leave her be. If she chooses to be a mother, she knows where the boys are. She knows what she should do to be there for them and be a part of their lives.

Jim, I hope I am not coming off too harsh, but you need a sledgehammer to the noggin, because you have been given some pretty consistent feedback and I pray that you can make the best decision for you and your boys.
You have been through a lot and as I have said to you before, the task you are faced with is not an easy one, but you have been a stand up man and father and that is more than many others in your situation would do.

I pray that you may receive the inspiration that you need to guide your family to a good place.

Take care my friend. I am here supporting you and want more than anything to see you have peace and success with those young sons of yours.

SH,

I agree with many of your statements. I guess I have not completely detached. I just want to do right by my boys and as one of the DB coaches said, if you can handle it and make the move to build a friendship at the very least then do it. I do not want to be one of those D'd couples that just does an exchange and that is it. I want the boys to thrive off of both parents so I am trying to plan out whether or not I am strong enough emotionally to make that happen.

The roller coaster will never end with her no matter where we live. I know that once I am D'd she has no say over my actions anymore or now for that matter, but it will give me some closure to say I did the best that I could. Even after the D I want to "do the right thing" as she keeps saying, but the right thing will be based on the outcome of the D. The actions will be solely mine with no ties to her as far as us being H and W. We can beat a dead horse and someone can say well you can take action now but until the psych evaluation and mediation is complete and letting the system takes its course there is no move I can make at this time.

[rich4j]

Wow JK

No..the roller coaster won't end and unfortunately you are tied at the hip to her for years to come.

Her threatening you should be documented by your lawyer and sent on the boyfriend kicking your butt. There is no room for threats like that..don't stand for it

She will continue to blame you so hopefully you can find time when you are not with the boys to find your way...somethign to keep you going down the path towards happiness again. I know that is hard...you are focused on 5 kids and doing the right thing which is admirable. Keep that in mind..you..are doing what is right.

[Painter]

Hey Jim,

You have a link to a new thread so I'll go there to reply.