Zues, I agree with a lot of your posts, but not so much with this one. I think that perhaps your looking at the bottom line..which is how to save a marriage and I respect that. But there is something about the dynamics in this thread that doesn't sit right.
Plus I'm feeling a bit sensitive here too
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Regarding the resentment about the police call...I've seen this pattern a lot. It reminds me of juju's WAH who was angry at her for getting the courts involved to get child support. Whether these actions were necessary or not isn't really the point. It's not hard to understand his point of view. It ties in to the card game from my first post.
I don't understand this comment. Why isn't it about whether these actions were necessary? Chickie was locked out of her home and separated from her children. Her husband had just thrown water at her, tried to throw a computer at her and physically hit her in the head? I would have been more worried about the safety of my children during that moment then the embarrassment husband would face. If he ended up hurting the kids, and she didn't call the police she would have to live with that.
This does not seem to be a tit for tat incident.
My husband walked out and would not give me child support because he felt like my parents were supporting us. I asked him on 2 occasions and both times he refused and then would make comments about how because I was asking him, reconciliation would not be an option and that he would take more time with son (in which case I would tell him, I would like for you to see son more). I even went to his mom, and while she offered to help pay for things she did not want to get involved and even mentioned court. It took me 5 months to take him to court and that was after I found out he was taking 9 day vacations somewhere traveling via plane while my parents were helping me so I could afford to take son to pool. My husband also was living rent and expense free with his mom and earns 3 figures, not accounting for moonlighting. My parents were paying for everything I could not.
Chippie If you would like, I could give you my old posting name and you can read about the agony I went through debating when and how to ask him for this support. I was a wreck for months because I was afraid it would affect his willingness to reconcile with me. This was also not done as a tit for tat. It was done because I was not being fair to my parents, myself, or my child by allowing this to continue.
It's 2016. What are some of the worst things people can say about a man? He's abusive, I'm not safe around him, he's a deadbeat dad...those words paint the picture of a guy straight out of the 50's wearing a wife beater, drinking too much beer, insulting his wife and bullying her around, and ignoring the kids. These days that's considered not just a deal breaker, but a deal breaker that leaves the woman talking to her friends about what a jerk her guy was, and setting him up to be the villain in her personal narrative, where the next guy that jumps in gets to be the white knight, the good guy who isn't like that. So when he sees you talking about him like you think he's abusive or a deadbeat, that is going to provoke a reaction.
XW did this to me. She called me abusive, said she was walking on eggshells, that she couldn't be herself when I was around. She couldn't feel safe. And much more. I was nothing like the guy in the description above. I certainly never laid hands on her, I've never been abused or abusive. But I know. "Not all abuse is physical". These days any time a woman is in emotional pain the husband is thought to be abusive. I don't know, I spent three years in a soul torturing painful sexless marriage, that's not abuse, in fact it always comes back to "she had a reason, probably because YOU were a bad husband..."
. Yes I agree. Calling the abuse card to justify walking away from a marriage and family is disgusting. My husband did that. He told me, his friends, and coworkers that I was verbally abusive. He misquoted things I said and discussed horrible gifts I gave him as proof of abuse. He also told me and mc he felt like he was walking on egg shells and I was given title by MC as being hyper sensitive. There are a lot of articles out there written for men that describe it as abusive when women nag or complain about things getting done. And you know what? For the longest time I really believed I was horribly abusive. I still question myself. I often felt frusturated and I am certain there were better ways I could have communicated. I am constantly asking myself " am I villifying? Am I being unfair?"
There was an incident before having my son... I was upset with husband because He was spending money on luxury car and season tickets and not saving money and not clearing his stuff so I could get the nursery finished. I am sure he perceived it as nagging and criticism. I was due in a few weeks and was getting really stressed but was super tired so the argument was occuring with me sitting reclined in bed. Husband took the book out of my hand and threw it at my stomach.
I was not scared, the book was a paper back but I was super surprised at his action. I asked him to leave, he apologized immediatly and I forgave quickly and he never left the apt. I don't know if this action is abusive. I don't know if chickies husband actions are abusive. But they were shitty. And humiliating.
A few months ago my husband brought up the fact that I actually once kicked him out in order to prove how horrible I was to him.
I have never brought this incident up and never will accept where I am anonymous. I am not looking for a white knight. My husband is not dangerous nor is he a physical threat to me. Just someone who could not figure out how to negotiate or argue appropriatly and perhaps needing control. But I will ask you this...
Did you or any husbands here act in ways comparable? I'm not talking about yelling or hitting a wall.
I am sure that my husband and chippies husband felt similarly to you and perhaps 90% of the nice guys here. But not fair to compare unless you also walked away, refused to support your kids, threw things at your spouse, I can name some more too but won't. Entirely different.
Just as we are entirely different from your wives.
Yes, there is abuse out there, it is extremely serious, and I'm not dismissing that. What I was though was more of the "Nice guy" type. If you look at the forum here you'll see that applies to like 90% of guys. It's because for decades we've been saying the guy from the 50's is a monster, so we're all trying to be the opposite. Sensitive, thoughtful, respectful, anything you say dear. All with the expectation that the wife will reciprocate, appreciate him for not being a 'bad guy', and that she'll meet his needs. When this doesn't happen he becomes hurt, then resentful, and often passive aggressive. What the husband wants more than anything else is for the wife to love and respect him, and to meet his needs. His behavior, be it guilting, punishing, avoiding, different forms of control, is often a desperation attempt to communicate what he needs from her. But instead of her saying "oh, love of my life, I can see you were in great pain because I wasn't doing xxxxx and you need that from me", she says "you are abusive, I don't feel safe with you, you need to leave!"
So calling the cops, getting the courts involved, all of these things...it is the most grievous character attack that can be made on a man, coming from the person who's viewpoint he cares about the most. I think it's a good thing he is so upset about the cops, that means he cares what you think. What I'm guessing he wants to hear is something along the lines of "H, you're a good guy. There are a lot of bad guys out there, you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you. I was upset when you did a/b/c, but in retrospect I can see that was a reaction to something else, and that you were really wounded by x/y/z and simply doing everything you could to communicate that to me. I'm sorry that x/y/z ever hurt you that much, and that instead of hearing you I blamed you and your reaction."
I wouldn't say that unless it was true. Yes maybe earlier in relationship when there was truth to it. But not when husband is behaving poorly.
If a husband wants respect it has to be earned. Throwing things like a child is not going to earn a husband respect. Learning and implementing good leadership skills will.
I tried that when he had left and it just served to prove to him how justified he was in his thinking and I think it makes ones word worth less. Kind of like praising a kid too much when they are doing things half assed. Instead I would get help from top counselors and social workers. If we had done that earlier there might have been a chance.
Looking back I am greatful i involved the courts. My only regret is that I did not do it sooner. I have started a college fund for my son. i have no idea where husbands money was going prior. I know it was not going for son or family though.
My brothers and I were raised with strict consequences. I made mistakes in my relationship, husband left. Husband refuses child support courts get involved. Husband locks out wife and throws stuff at her police get called. That's life. We have to be responsible for our actions.
Maybe you can't say that. Maybe he is an abusive dangerous animal. Maybe you can't provide x/y/z, or he's unreasonable for expecting it, maybe he's carrying open wounds and no matter what you do he is in pain and blaming you. I can't speak to any of that. But the bottom line is this. Validate both that he's a good guy, and the wounds you inflicted that he feels drove him to behave this way. Do that and he'll follow you around like a puppy dog.
What would he say drove him to that escalated state? Why did he feel he had to raise his voice? What weren't you hearing?
***REMINDER, I'm not suggesting that abuse is the victim's fault. Somewhere there's a line between abuse and normal pain/anger. If it's abuse, it's abuse, and you at some point walk away and protect yourself. Only thing is that you can't save a marriage if that's your call. So while we don't want to rug sweep or be in harm's way, we also don't want to jump the gun on that label when this dynamic plays out in many normal relationships.
Thanks for the post J. I don't disagree. Sometimes it feels like we're all looking at different parts of the elephant and seeing the same thing from different angles. I'm definitely guilty of this as my experience has been a twighlight zone episode of fallout that I still struggle to believe is legally endorsed and culturally accepted. So I'm definitely sensitive to this stuff too, and I appreciate your feedback and the respectful way it was delivered.
The one thing I will say is that you always try hard to see things from every angle, challenge yourself, hold yourself to a high standard and look hard in the mirror every day. You HAVE spent a lot of time wrestling with those questions, and that is why you have always been one of my DB heroes. When you live in that way I feel confident the decisions you make will either be right on, or as close as you can get being that we're all flawed humans.
Maybe my message should have been to simply do the same. If a WAS is deemed to be a threat then cut bait, but if you're trying to save a marriage it makes sense to understand their narrative, the role you play in it, and as much about the dynamic as possible so you can change it by changing your part of the dance. I know when I came on the boards I was encouraged to think long and hard about these things. If you read back through my posts no one ever suggested that XW was a person I needed to protect myself from, it was about me, my thought patterns, my contributions to the breakdown of the marriage, and what I needed to own up to. And while WAS's are notorious for spewing venom, we are instructed to find the underlying unmet needs behind the pain and resentment they are taking out on us to find the nuggets of truth, own them, and do 180s to try to become better people. That's what I've come to accept as part of the standard DB process, so we have more recovered marriages and less divorces with pointed fingers. That's what I've been trying to say all along I think.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I can say "sorry" just not "sorry you feel that way" because then it can be seen that I'M not sorry about MY actions just sorry HE feels the way he does.
But that is exactly the proper time to say this, Chippie. To let him know that you are sorry that he feels the way he does, NOT that you are sorry about your actions. If you ever do something you regret, apologize. Apologize immediately. But don't apologize because your husband is p!ssed off that you reacted appropriately to his actions and words, including calling the police if you honestly feel it is necessary.
Originally Posted By: JuJuB
Originally Posted By: Zues
What I'm guessing he wants to hear is something along the lines of "H, you're a good guy. There are a lot of bad guys out there, you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you. I was upset when you did a/b/c, but in retrospect I can see that was a reaction to something else, and that you were really wounded by x/y/z and simply doing everything you could to communicate that to me. I'm sorry that x/y/z ever hurt you that much, and that instead of hearing you I blamed you and your reaction."
I wouldn't say that unless it was true. Yes maybe earlier in relationship when there was truth to it. But not when husband is behaving poorly.
If a husband wants respect it has to be earned. Throwing things like a child is not going to earn a husband respect. Learning and implementing good leadership skills will.
I absolutely agree with you, JuJuB! Zues126 do you really consider someone whose actions include "breaking a door, throwing water at me, throwing me computer across the room to me and a light swat to the head," and who also decided that he should be allowed to be polyamorous, someone who deserves being told "you've always made sure to take care of me and the kids, and I was lucky to find you?" And that his actions were an appropriate means of "doing everything you could to communicate that to me???"
Originally Posted By: Zeus
I think it's a good thing he is so upset about the cops, that means he cares what you think.
Maybe but maybe not, maybe it just means that he's angry. I'm sorry your ex falsely told people that you were abusive, that she felt like she was walking on eggshells, and didn't feel safe around you without cause. But I would not agree that Chippie's husband's actions are a dynamic that "plays out in many normal relationships." I would not call your ex's actions normal, nor Chippie's husband's actions either.
Chippie, thanks for explaining about your new home. So is the lease only in your name? I think that might be a good thing. My ex used to give me a lot of arbitrary dates that he planned to move out, but never did. What is it that YOU want? You sound a bit ambivalent about whether or not you would like to preserve your marriage. You'd mentioned that he has always been quick to anger, but is this more abusive behavior new on your husband's part? I was thinking maybe it is due to his testosterone replacement medication - it can cause men to emotionally over-react and can cause anxiety and depression. Thyroid medication can cause mood swings too.
This upset me:
Originally Posted By: Chippie
he somehow turned it around into a power struggle where he's waiting for me to prove to me that he can trust me again - he never says how, only that he doesn't see that how that's possible...
What have you done that makes your husband distrust you, besides call the police that time? It sounds as if you should distrust him! I think the only way a person who has betrayed someone's trust can ever regain that trust is by their actions. By consistently keeping their word and being honest and straightforward. But I bet that nothing you ever do or say will ever be enough for him.
How are your girls handling all of this?
Linda
Me 65, Ex 64 M 38 y 2 adult S, 4 G-Kids MLC 11/07 BD 12/09 D 3/14 Dating nice guy 7/14 Engaged to nice guy 12/17
oh sorry Zues I was writing my questions to you based on your previous post. I agree with what you said about finding the nuggets of truth about ourselves in our spouses' spewing, and changing them to become better people. But I also think a lot of the spewing is lies and excuses. My ex told me he did not love me anymore because I was too short. He also sent out a mass email falsely informing our friends and family that I had been cheating on him since the day we got married, was abusive, and had tried to poison him. Sigh..... I'm a nurse; if I wanted to poison someone, he would be dead LOL
Coconut, I think it's about control mingled with real hurt. My own therapist thinks it was extreme to call the police so that confuses me. I get what you're saying though.
Zues, I wish that what you were saying were true. I know that he would love for me to say all those things. And I actually have said those things. He actually IS a very good dad and I tell him that but it's hard to keep saying that when he tells me I'm a bad Mom or says nothing. He says a lot of things that contradict himself.
In the situation where the police were involved I provoked that situation which is unlike me. I'm not saying this to blame myself because we're both adults and he should be able to control his own part. I was mocking him because at the time he was insisting that he was polyamorous and that I should allow him to have a girlfriend. This is why I think he is/was having a MLC. I said hell to the no! But you're free to go. And then he accused me of trying to break up the family and trying to own him. It was crazymaking gaslighting stuff. He's not an animal. He IS very troubled and very lazy when it comes to how he treats me. He's very charming too. He's decided he's no longer polyamorous and claims it was only to fill the hole in the relationship and bad sex life with me. More insult to injury. It's not my fault but I have a part in it. I would love to actually sweep the police situation under the rug and move on and make every day great and do fun stuff all the time. He's the one that doesn't want to move on and focus on the positive. So I think learning to detach and do the 180 is the best plan. I've tried fill him up with positive after positive and he's truly a bottomless pit. I get that nice guys get angry and resentful. He is not you. He's different. Remember that his sister thinks that he's a narcisstic sociopath. He was fired for cursing out his boss. He's been arrested once or twice. Social services called.... very angry and disgruntled... AND talks about meditation and spiritual program etc. But he's not reaping those benefits. I think you see resemblances to your own situation and you were judged more harshly than was fair but this is a little bit different. Even I don't know for sure because I have my own bias but I'm pretty sure. Last fall he was on some cocktail of meds that made him my dreamboat but also he slept all the time. lol So I'm holding on the the dream, the possibility that it could work - and because we have kids, and because the finances would be hard if we split. And he's angry and vindictive and OH so smart that I'm afraid that he'd get the kids away from me if he got angry enough though he says we'd split the time with the kids. I really don't know what I want and what I should be working towards so the 180 plan seems a reasonable way to bide time. Tonight we all went to dinner and went grocery shopping. We all laughed at dinner. Then he hung up things I wanted screwed into the wall and then asked me to watch Orange is the New Black with him. And then he went to bed to his own room. It's like having an extremely controlling roommate. I don't want a roommate. I want a sex life and a plan to grow old with someone who is committed. I'm tweaking my behavior to get closer to 180 but I feel like I'm still at his beck and call. He certainly has me wrapped around his finger. If he wanted to suddenly be back with me I'd go for it. I have my limits but there's not much to them. The polyamory was a limit. I'm not interested in that lifestyle. And anyway, he was never without jealousy of my behavior so it was uneven anyway. By the way, I changed my computer password so he can't see stuff on my computer. My therapist tried to tell him about the book though. She said "chippie is reading a good book, you should try it." but he really didn't care. He isn't trying to improve the relationship - he's trying to control it - or so it seems.
Oh dear, I've gotten a bit confused and responded without clearly following everything though I think everything I wrote was true I just missed some parts.
He IS verbally and emotionally abusive - I'm NOT throwing these words around lightly. He regularly calls me names - though not lately... January he called me a piece of [censored]. When he get's like that it's nauseating. More and more I see it as a sick child spinning out and not about me but it does seep into my psyche. Now he is either friendly and fun or sulky or accusatory.
Ugh I hate writing because I think it makes it clear that I should leave. But I'm not sure. I really am very confused.
Here's the takeaway - I DO HAVE A PART - I always knew I had a part but I'm seeing now that my part isn't the part I thought.
I didn't make him do the things he did or vice versa. But my part is being overly dependent on him and his opinion. Being a people pleaser. Focusing on myself is a very good thing for me to work on. Another part I can own is my self pity and the trash talking of him. I simultaneously want to prove to all of you how bad he is and also find out how to get him to ACTUALLY follow me around like a puppy. I have trash talked him to his mother, sister, aunt and many of my friends. Trash talking is harsh on me - I've told them my angle of his trashy behavior, complained a lot but never left which is exhausting for everyone. I've told you some things about him to try to paint a story - it looks worse here because I've told you all the worst stuff... mainly it's the daily irritability.. that is grating... But then again his own aunt said most people would have left a long time ago and she loves him like I do... actually at this point, more than I do.
RosaLinda, would it be helpful if I asked him what meds he's on now? He might get suspicious... but I might be able to find out.
Linda, to lose his trust... called the police and told them though unlikely, what if he were to hurt himself and the kids... he says I lied to the police. I told them it was unlikely. But I thought it was unacceptable to kick me out and separate me from the kids and I told him "IF you kick me out without the kids I will call the police" and that's what I did. Then he angrily invited me back in but before I could process what he said he said never mind and slammed the door and went back in. I turned off my phone and used a friends phone so he couldn't see where I had gone. After the police incident I turned the phone back on and saw that he had texted that I should come home and that he was sleeping upstairs with the girls. OH I also threw water on the bed that he was going to sleep on that night - that threw him into a rage and had earlier ignored his time out. The next day he was sad and worried and respectful. Since then he has worked himself into a massive resentment. It think it has to do with the balance of power. He knows now that I want to get back together because I have all these suggestions about how to do that. So it's a push pull thing. The girls don't want to talk about any of this. They want ignorance.
Thanks Chippie. There is no question that you need to get some distance and let the dust start to settle. This is definitely over the top behavior. Whether it is possible for it to settle down into a normal relationship or not is to be determined. You don't have to figure that out now. But you have to give it a chance for things to calm down.
Obviously you can't calm him down. You have to calm yourself down when he's not being calm. That is where the detaching comes in, and why it is the #1 rule.
I like the direction you're going with your posts. It's time for you to take a journey without him. No need to make conclusions about where that journey is taking you, whether it will work with him or not, etc. It's ok to be in limbo. Just learn to live with the moment, with the good things in your life you do have, and being true to your best self. GAL. 180. Have some fun now and then. Journal and post. See your IC. Take a break from all of it now and then. Keep breathing. All good stuff.
Again, I'm sorry you're here. But you have good company. Hang in.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Hey team, I'm getting tired of all this family time and no affection. We all went tubing. We went to a party as a family. We made an offer on a house (???) I'm not sure of the thinking on that. And we live like roommates. I need a change. I'm feeling crabby. We've been doing this for awhile. I'm trying to follow the guidelines. No gifts, keeping my distance a little which is hard with all the family time and kid coordination and planning. The good thing is that on average he's been fairly pleasant today. He was pleased with the tubing on the river. Anything I can do to shake it up?
