In other news... I started reading "codependence no more" again. Also watched a couple videos about it. It was a little gut wrenching also. Did I do those things? The video kept using the term narcissist, over and over, like one has to be a narcissist and one a codependent. I didn't think that was a requirement, I thought there could be 2 codependent people.
The examples in the video talked about not allowing the other to do things. And when the codependent sets boundaries and says "I'm going to do it anyway", the narcissist goes crazy. Well, this thing happened. She told me last minute about the party I talk about in my first post. I told her I didn't like the idea, we had been arguing for days, the timing sucked. I went looking for her because I was suspicious.... Still am! She wasn't there. when she showed up, I told her we needed to get home. She says I screamed and called her names and kicked and punched my vehicle, that never happened, I stayed calm. I never did those things, ever. So, I played part of the role I guess, but she made the rest of my fitting the role up in her head... To a tee!
Self evaluation requires digging up skeletons... It [censored]! I'll continue on the path of self discovery no matter how painful it becomes.
Stupid question... Is there a such thing as loving yourself enough, respecting yourself enough, to not take back someone who didn't love you enough to not cause the devastation?
yes, there is such a thing. it is understanding that you are worth more than the abusive spouse treated you. it is not easy thing to do. it starts with acknowledging that you are worthy of more and willing to get it. seeing her actions for what they were and accepting that although you had faults, you did not deserve this treatment. I suggest once you are done with your current text you start.looking into other sources about getting out of these sorts of abusive relationships. she may not have ever struck you, but the scars are evident and you will carry marks for a long time.
I have a lengthy post for you...in response to your questions i will post it in the morning when I get to work...I ran out of time before I had to leave today, just needed a quick once over.
I understand how hard this is. In the beginning of my situation, I was consummed with the idea that there could be OP. It bothered me so much. And if I knew earlier, i think it would have made it so I didn't live in limbo quite so long. But now, i really don't care anymore. If that's the case, good for him. I know my value as a loyal person and if he cheated it devalues his character. It says nothing about me. I am now actually grateful that it was not thrown in my face.
My husband made up really bizarre lies as well. I don't know if he was lying to himself to justify his actions? But that no longer matters either because I know my truths. I also know my flaws.
it's so easy to diagnose our spouse as narcissistic, abusive, sociopathic, on the spectrum etc. We are looking for answers as to how they are capable of hurting us like this. It is also easy to use the abusive label. it is easy for them to use the abusive label on us. I think the truth is that everyone has some level of dysfunction and the nature of relationships just brings it out and intensifies it. None of us really go into our relationships truly prepared for how to recognize and deal with it when things start to go down hill.
Zues has a really good analogy regarding cards and abusive labels somewhere. I will try to find it and link it for you. Or maybe another poster knows where it is?
It can be so frusturating to hear the words " just work on you". What the hell does that mean? She's the one that left a path of destruction and destroyed a family and broke vows! But I think those words really just mean that no matter how angry you are, or unfair and irrational your spouse's actions are, you have no control over them. You do have control over yourself and how you will navigate through this though.
Zephyr, I'll keep reading in your post, but I wonder something.... Why is your W the WAS? Are you sure YOU aren't the WAS? You doing GAL is showing a lack of interest in her? You stepping back and letting her have her independence is showing a lack of interest in her? She has an expectation of your duties, and you are trying to back out of them? I don't know, maybe I'm still not understanding what a "healthy" relationship looks like. I understand codependency being bad. But having a life that is fully intertwined, and both partners liking it that way, I think CAN work. Withdrawing from that pattern without notice sounds cold?
ofp, Why am I here. I have spent a bit of time thinking about your questions and I have gone over a lot in my head. why is my wife the WAS / or whatever you want to call it...she is the one who has stopped sharing affection, intimacy, desire, passion and attention, she's the one asking for space, telling me she was not happy, that maybe she never loved me, that she didn't want to pretend anymore, that she doesn't know who she is, that she doesn't like who she has become, took her ring off...there are more things that I've heard over the last 5 years from her. her crisis to figure herself out continues. I understand it better now, but still all I can do is stop trying to fix her, show compassion and accept who she is and let her grind through it. That does not mean that I need to stop and wait for her to make that choice. I needed to start moving forward in my life, living how I want and need to in order to enjoy who I am, treating others the way I would like to be treated, and really to ‘become the man only a fool would leave’
I don't think that a life that is fully intertwined is necessarily healthy, even when both of us try to live that way. Look we have a HUGE, encompassing list of people on this board alone that are proof that, that kind of enmeshment just doesn't work long term - even leaving abusive childhoods out of the equation even (7 and 14 year marks are so common it is chilling). I read memes every day where love is all about being that close, and how wonderful and all that is - I love those sorts of meme's , but over a long time...I think that is how you lose you sense of self...and that is murder to a marriage.
you and I are givers, right? we give and give and give. our wives, well they are takers. over the years, our marriages have drained our self-worth, and our sense of who we are...and we not only allowed it, we embraced it as our sense of duty. That intertwined, enmeshment was not healthy. all it ever did was really created more resentment and anger. giving up that resentment is key to moving forward. giving up the expectations too and the anger should be goals to.
I know I keep hammering this home, but the gal is necessary for us to regain a foothold of who we are. some independence, who would not want a fairly independent woman who Chooses to spend her lives with us and us to share ours with them.
be careful with the concept of 'letting them'.... our wives are full grown women who have every right to choose. you don't get to say what they can chose and what they cannot. maybe that is something to work on, understanding that two grown adults can live together in matrimony and still free-willed individuals, who with respect each other’s choices and can still share lives and love through compromise and sharing. I would like for that in my life very much and really that is the blueprint for how I chose to live.
As for GAL (again) we use these activities to fill our lives with joy and excitement, with interpersonal relationships, with experiences outside our everyday grind. can these be shared with wife, he'll ya why not. if they want to, otherwise nothing wrong with going and doing your own thing and her doing her own thing...as long as your activities are not violating each other's boundaries than why not (obviously the full other end is to spend no time together which is just as disastrous). you bring energy and stories to revel about back to the home.
my grandmother told me 20 years ago...and although it has stuck with me...it didn't click till more recently, "you marry for better or worse, not breakfast lunch and dinner" it is more true to me now than when she said it.
as far as me doing this without notice. my wife and I have discussed being more active outside of the home...she has encouraged my activities, including roller derby, gaming groups, going out with my brothers more, guitar, fitness and the school board stuff. we have done many of these and other things together, too.
I believe there needs to be a healthy compromise. one author list 15 hours a week of couples time. is that too high, too low, idk...I have tried to use that as a target number at least...and it has been like that for well over a year now. I am her greatest cheerleader in all that she does. as for interest, I encourage her cultivating hobbies, schooling, activities, work, events, health-exercise, clubs, whatever. I sit and am attentive to her daily unload that she needs, put everything else aside and engage her during these talks, whether it is 10 minutes or longer, so be it. I remember a time...a long time where I could not stand that as soon as I came home from work (10-12 hour day) she wanted to spill all that crap on me and I couldn't handle it, because I was not getting the reciprocation. That was me, not meeting her basic needs (just one little example).
there are lots of books out there on the needs of our spouses...I've read a couple of them and really tried to focus on those things I know she needs. if anything, I have errored on the side of too much attention to her needs.
I also have continued to spend a ton of time with my kids one on one and as a family. Trying to keep a healthy compromise.
so back to the original question. am I the WAS at this time, hmmm...not sure. in a healthy relationship, continued detachment and moving further away emotionally and physically to the point of eradication of actual connection would certainly indicate that i were, but that is nowhere near my goal. I am giving my wife the time and the space to actually chose if she wants to stay as my wife. maybe that does not come through in my posts because I focus so much on me and my journey.
I am not going to pretend that maybe there isnt a bit of truth that I AM starting to figure a way out, trying to decide if I’ve had enough. I try not to let that dictate my path right now. I have certainly given my relationship my full attention for a long time. I have made changes to my behavior to my wife, my kids, myself and just in general. I live a more full life than I ever did...despite all of this, hope still fades of a mutually beneficial relationship, and there are things still missing, pieces of a healthy relationship that may never return. There are times that I simply want to be done with trying. The day before mother’s day, my wife railed on my son for over 5 minutes because of a bandage had come off of his hand. She asked what he was doing, he told her drawing (he was upstairs, it was later…basically bed time). She railed about wasting time instead of going to bed, about wasting money with the bandage coming off. So here is the deal…he was working on her mothers day card and when drawing the tegaderm bandage kept getting caught and rubbing off. I just wanted to pack my kids up and leave. I was not protecting them. Here is a little boy, 11 year old trying to make a card for his mother and she is railing on him, full out berating him and him standing there, crying, taking it. I spent the next ˝ hour putting him to sleep and then bawling my eyes out in anger over my impotence to do anything to help him while it went on. So ya, maybe there is confusion on my part too…and I’ve typed this quickly so i am sure I am all across the map.
I hope that gives a little more insight to me and my path. Sorry, I hate the "sermon"-ly feel for how these come off. I hate internet conversations...can't express sentiment the same as in person, overshare on one piece and not really explain what you are looking for on the others. some of my answers do come off as defensive (or even a little crazy) so I apologize for that, I need to reread them and let simmer in
I will start a new thread soon, things have been pretty busy for me.
Zephyr, J, I will get back to your posts in a bit here...
When I got done with work today, I was watching a video on youtube on codependency. I'm looking for ways to deal with it, grow, become a better person. But one video on the side caught my eye. Ross Rosenberg, "a codependent CANNOT be a Narcissist"
Obviously, the title is something that caught my eye because my W accused me of being a narcissist. Self doubt about if she was right, a little scared, a little shame, did I have some of the traits? This video blew me away. I finished watching it, and I have never felt such a sudden release of guilt/shame/fear all at once in my life.
First statement, how to know if you are the narcissist or the codependent.... If you are the one looking for self-help, you are NOT the narcissist!
It talks about some of the similarities of a codependent and a narcissist. Both can use manipulation to try to get their way. I did do some things that were manipulative, and was scared that meant I really was a narcissist. Apparently not. Phew, what a relief. But only one lacks empathy, the true narcissist. And this is the one that accuses the other of being a narcissist, OMG again, she did accuse me, still is!. This is also part of the gaslighting that I have seen others on this site refer to, a narcissist will try to get you to believe there is something wrong with you when there is not!
I highly suggest anyone feeling down about themselves in this position, afraid they had narcissistic traits, watch this video.
Another thing I wonder about, is how this stuff ties to other things in the world.
The advice on this forum is effective for maximizing the odds of a spouse returning, because the codependent becomes un-dependent, scares the narcissist, and they have to deal with their own stuff? Also why GAL works, it helps the codependent rebuild themselves? And most people that are on this site are codependent in these relationships?
OFP's... why are they always a year? The first video I watched talked about codependence taking a year to get over. Probably takes that long for a narcissist to get over their connection to the codependent also?
Unless, the nar finds new prey. My WW has a long history of overlapping men, and always have one or more on the back burner. Then in full force puts all her life effort into that, until the co-dependent is hooked.. Obviously I am not an expert, just an observer of her actions and what she has told me about relationships and how mine started and is now ending.
Ralph88 Me 40s W 30s, D5 D3 , M7 T9 2013 B drop 1, EA found 2016 B drop 2, EA/PA? 2/16 Physical Seperation 2/16 I filed for D 4/16 PA Confirmed
I like Ross Rosenberg, I studied his stuff on my counselling course. He is an expert on personality disorders in DSM IV. Not a marital therapist of any kind, in essence he trains counsellors.
Rock solid. And yes a codependent can't be a systematic. They can be an enabler in this way. I trust you have examined the abuse thread as there are many ideas which may help. The key is to set boundaries and one of these is that no childhood abuse is in any way a resonated or excuse for repeating the cycle. Big girl pants.
Unfortunately your W hasn't had the childhood models to understand her parenting role and the effects of her actions on your precious children. Your instincts are on the money. Get those children protected.
In every way, childhood sexual and other abuse is never the child's fault, not ever. Managing the adult path is the responsibility of the adult. You can't do that for her, it's her path.
You can provide an environment in which recovery no matter how slow is maintained. You can't do the work for her, it's your job to do that for yourself.
Know that damaged people damage people, don't let this be your children. Be authentic and say so. It's unacceptable to rag on a child at any time.
Next time follow your gut instinct, blame V.
Ithe is time for boundaries on the behaviour of WW that is acceptable to you. Time to state those boundaries clearly and the consequences of her actions.
Clearly and in simple straightforward language.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
