We'd already been together 4 years when we married, and lived together for 3 of those 4 years. We bought our first home together the same month we married (he moved in with me originally). Our S was born 4 years later after some troubles - (2 operations and a failed IVF cycle). During the pregnancy I became ill with OCD and then had PND too. H was supportive at first, then when S was 4 months old he said he wasn't sure he wanted to be with me anymore. I just carried on looking after S and a few weeks later he said he was sorry and had just been struggling with my illness. I thought things ticked along fine after this. Then, 2 days after S's 2nd birthday H came home from work late and told me he'd stayed at work to think and he was leaving me. He left the very next morning. I cried, begged, all the usual for 2 weeks, then discovered there was OW, a W he worked with. Bought DR and immediately went dark. 2 weeks later H asked me and S out for the day. He continued to do this every week or couple of weeks. Four months later he asked me out on a date. The next day he said he wanted to come home. The whole time he had insisted the OW was just someone to talk to. I believed him and after 3 months piecing things really started to look up. We were happier than ever. 8 months later I'm pregnant with D. 2 weeks after finding out I was pregnant I found a letter in H's wallet from the OW. The wording made it clear it had been PA. H denied it all and said she was crazy and had made it up to split us up. The letter was dated 2 months after he'd come back home. I was devastated but, as I say, pregnant. I struggled throughout the pregnancy with whether or not to believe what H was saying to me. I was so confused and almost ended the M myself at 8 months pregnant but H begged me not to make a decision whilst hormonal. I agreed and when D was born I was so blissfully happy that it all seemed unimportant. Things were pretty good except every time H was on his phone I felt uneasy. Most of the time I hid it but sometimes I'd ask if he was talking to her. He always said no.
When D was 3 I discovered a birthday card and Christmas card from OW when I was tidying our wardrobes out. They were with some envelopes that some of my Christmas gifts had been delivered in, stashed at the back of the wardrobe, so I knew they were from the Christmas just gone. I asked H if he had something he wanted to tell me. He blagged his way out of it saying he'd meant to put them in the bin and had didn't know when they were from. I pointed out the post marks and he changed it to he'd just forgotten they were there and they meant nothing. Two weeks later while H was at work I found several emails to OW - H sending pictures to her of love messages or photos of our S dressed in a dressing up outfit! This led me to hunt a little further and I found the most sickening thing of my whole life. A letter on the laptop written by H to OW, 3 pages long. It implied they'd been having a PA for years. When H got home he asked why I was crying. I handed him the laptop and told him I was spending the night at my parents' house. He looked like he would collapse as I walked out the door. I returned the next day to say I wasn't sure what I wanted to do but that I wanted us to still go on the holiday we had booked for 2 weeks later. We did and he spent the whole holiday trying to make me 'come round', sending cards, telling me the letter was made up when he was drunk one night. He bought me jewellery too to try to make it up to me, which I gave him back. I insisted we see a MC. We went twice together and then she wanted to see H alone. From that point on it was just me going on my own for weeks on end, talking about my childhood. I eventually asked when we were going to get to the actual reason I was here - ie H's letter and insisted she read it. She told me if her H had written it she would have filed for D on the spot. I didn't go again and just after that D was diagnosed with an incurable condition so once again my mind was taken up with something else.
H changed his phone no at my request when it first happened but didn't like me looking at his phone. We argued a lot about this at first because I felt he should be transparent given what had gone on. He felt it was an invasion of his privacy. The first year was bad. I cried and was angry a lot. Lots of little comments about H being a liar. H's idea of working on things seemed to be to just be as nice as possible to me and wait on my hand and foot. I told him that wasn't what I needed. Told him I needed some kind of proof that he hadn't had PA because his letter and her letter made it obvious they had. At the very least I wanted him to be tested for STDs but he refused, saying he didn't need to because he hadn't had a PA. After about a year of this he began to get angry with it all and if I was ever upset he would just yell at me to make my mind up, either to stay or go. I had felt things were getting slowly better as I was going longer and longer between the times I needed to bring it up for reassurance. Wasn't good enough for H though, he wanted it never mentioning again. When he tried to hug me I would just stand there motionless. In the beginning it was because it made me want to actually be sick when he so much as put a hand on my shoulder. All I could think of was him with her and the words in their letters. I felt H didn't really do anything to make me feel better except being nice, and that wasn't what I needed. I read books about forgiveness and getting over affairs, looked at sites. Tried to get H involved in that but he wasn't interested, said it was a load of rubbish and we just needed to be nice to each other.
All the while, as well as this OW issue there has been the issue of how H is with S. It is not just me who thinks he isn't nice to him, my whole family do and friends that see how he is. I have bought books on this under the guise that "we" needed help parenting. He only read the first chapters. He would visibly try to be different on several occasions over the years but it would last a day or two then he'd be back to himself. He is over bearing and unrealistic with S. He doesn't treat him with respect - doesn't think children should be treat with respect. He just seems to have no clue whatsoever on how to be a dad. It has broken my heart to watch how he is with S. We went through so much to have him and I feel so betrayed, like H hid his true self. I have thought many times that if I'd known what sort of father H was going to be I wouldn't have had children with him. So, I have, in my H's words, gone on and on at him about this. I tried all manner of ways to get him to be softer and more involved, to no avail.
The last couple of years as S's hormones have started to kick in things have become increasingly strained. It has become more and more obvious to everyone (including S) that H treats S and D differently. She can do no wrong and S does everything wrong. This has been the main thing we have argued about. H's shifts are dreadful and he has become increasingly snappy and moody and almost impossible to live with when on night shifts. Everyone treads on eggshells.
I hadn't worked since having the children but got a job 2 years ago. I feel this sent our M spiralling too. Prior to me working we would go out for lunch or into town shopping when H had a day off in the week, while the children were at school. It was the only time we spent alone together. No-one will have children over night due to D's condition so we hardly ever went out. H now says that this is because he hasn't wanted to go out with me, because he doesn't like me and hasn't wanted to be with me for a long time. Me working has made me very stressed out. I am working full time, having the children on my own evenings and weekends a lot of the time due to H's shifts and trying to run the house too. I became snappy and irritable.
H did help with housework at first when I started working but then the help waned. His Mum died this time last year and from then on I think he has been depressed. He doesn't believe in depression though, thinks it's a load of rubbish and people should just pull themselves together. He hasn't slept properly since she died, stopped doing anything to help round the house and has pretty much worked, slept or sat in his chair looking at things on the internet. Several times I voiced that I was concerned and worried about him and that he seemed depressed. He said I was talking rubbish. Things seemed to improve in August when we went on holiday. We had a fabulous time and became much closer physically than we had been in a very long time. I was elated - I finally thought things were getting back on track. As soon as we got home, however and he started back on shift he became snappy again and so did I. About a month after the holiday he told me ILYBNILWY. In view of the holiday I was shocked rigid and very confused. He said he wanted to see if we could get on so he could decide whether to leave or not. A week later he had to go on a course for 4 weeks. I have never seen anyone so tired and drained at the end of each day as my H was on this course. I did all the wrong things in this time. I was like a rabbit in the headlights, panicking and asking for reassurances that H was going to stay. He said he couldn't promise anything and just wanted to see how we got on. We had a couple of lovely weekends during this time where we went out as a family and had a great time. H was hugging and kissing like nothing was wrong right up to the weekend before he left.
We had a huge row the weekend he left. I had wanted reassurance and when he refused I told him if he didn't love me I wanted him to leave. So he did. The next day he came back to tell the children he was leaving. He told me that I thought I was so clever telling him to leave and I'd got what I deserved. A couple of weeks after he left I came back on here so the rest is on here.
So, I've struggled to forgive H's EA/PA and have punished H for the hurt he caused. I've criticized him because of his parenting. This is a tough one though because everyone who really knows us agrees that there is no way I could just let his parenting style go unchecked. I'm not sure what I could have done differently there. I've tried to model a better parenting style. I've tried books, and then when they haven't worked I've just said it. I've tried heartfelt letters telling him how upset it makes me to see him parent the way he does. I haven't been pleasant to live with, I can see that. I needed something, some reassurance. I don't even know. It has all just been such a mess for so long.
Took me a while to get back to this but I didn't want to treat it lightly.
I recently encouraged Ciluzen to read my last few posts on JulieH's threads. Very important, please check them out.
Before I say more let me be clear- affairs are not ok, they are incredibly destructive, hurtful, and are one of the only reasons I believe it's acceptable to walk away from a marriage. If WAH isn't willing to terminate the affairs and do everything in his power to reinvest in himself and the marriage to prevent this from EVER happening again, then I agree you should not subject yourself to this.
That all said, in reviewing your marital history it seemed clear that you cannot see past the affair. I reread it and highlighted things with this code: Green was comments you made owning your contributions to the breakdown of the marriage, Red were the comments you made criticizing H for the affair (and later for his parenting).
I get why you wouldn't be able to see past an affair when he is continuing in it. But it's no surprise that he felt he couldn't win with you. Obviously you have to stop the affair to win and he has to go first on that one...but it was a pretty bad cycle.
Right now you have some work to do to accepting that you can't change H. I posted on my new thread how hard this was for me, so I get it isn't easy. But if you knew that no matter what you did H wouldn't change, would you take him back? Knowing that he'd continue to cheat? This is an important question. If the answer is no (and I hope that it is) then your primary mission should be to work on yourself and move forward. Don't burn bridges...but don't think the solution to YOUR problems is H's behavior.
So...what is the solution? How do you work on you? And how do you stand for a marriage if it isn't about controlling WAH? Well, it all comes back to 180s from where you went wrong in the marriage. This is your roadmap to personal growth, and also, while you can't control WAH, it wouldn't hurt to give him a little incentive, a spouse that only a fool to leave so that when he compares it to his flings you look better and better. You can't make the horse drink, but you can lead it to water, and you do that by DBing hard.
The problem is according to this marital history you didn't contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. It sounds like you had a few cranky months due to pregnancy but other than that you were a wonderful wife, and the problems all started because H cheated, and then the only things you did wrong were in defense for his destructive choices in his affair and horrible parenting. If this is the case great news, you're perfect, dump this guy and look for a perfect man that equals you.
But if you're so perfect...why did H cheat in the first place? Of course it's his own decision, you're not responsible for his choices. Some guys do cheat in perfectly good marriages. But is that what he told you when you confronted him on his first affair? If I asked him about why he cheated and how you were as a wife, would his marital history look any different than yours?
I feel like I keep trying to put the focus back on you and it doesn't seem to work. Maybe you need a year of anger. Maybe you need to hit rock bottom and realize that walking around with this pain and anger in your heart isn't making you feel good. To be fair, it's hard to start healing when you're still being beaten, so please, do GAL and set firm boundaries so you are able to start detaching from this man. I want you to save your marriage, but not unconditionally. You don't deserve to be betrayed. And you don't deserve to live in pain of unmet needs so great you are willing to accept it in the hopes of having them met. But at some point you are going to work on your own garden if you want to feel better.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Took me a while to get back to this but I didn't want to treat it lightly.
Hi Zues, thank you for your reply, I really appreciate you taking the time to read through all that and leave such a thougtful response. I have read your posts on JulieH's threads and have them earmarked to read again as I'm not in a good place right now to take so much in. I feel like I'm spiralling out of control here.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
I get why you wouldn't be able to see past an affair when he is continuing in it. But it's no surprise that he felt he couldn't win with you. Obviously you have to stop the affair to win and he has to go first on that one...but it was a pretty bad cycle.
This part stumped me Zues. How so? (ie how is it no surprise he felt he couldn't win. In what way couldn't he win? I don't understand.)
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Right now you have some work to do to accepting that you can't change H. I posted on my new thread how hard this was for me, so I get it isn't easy. But if you knew that no matter what you did H wouldn't change, would you take him back? Knowing that he'd continue to cheat? This is an important question. If the answer is no (and I hope that it is) then your primary mission should be to work on yourself and move forward. Don't burn bridges...but don't think the solution to YOUR problems is H's behavior.
This is the million dollar question isn't it!? The trouble with all of this, and this has been the trouble the whole way through this whole mess from the minute H walked out 9 years ago, is that H still denies to this day that he has had a PA with this OW. He swears it was always just EA and he only uses that term because of MC we had - he doesn't even think there is such a thing as an EA. "She was just someone to talk to about us." is his go to line. The fact that there were gifts and cards and letters by both of them implying there had been PA is irrelevant according to H. This is and was my struggle. If he is telling the truth then I have destroyed our M for nothing. It is a bitter pill to swallow. But I just don't see why anyone would write a letter about having had a PA if they hadn't. So you see, I am very torn. If he has had a PA with this OW on and off (or maybe even continually on) for years on end then as you say, why would I put myself through this for someone who has no respect for me and treats me badly. If, however, he is telling the truth and there has been no PA then it is worth fighting for.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
So...what is the solution? How do you work on you? And how do you stand for a marriage if it isn't about controlling WAH? Well, it all comes back to 180s from where you went wrong in the marriage. This is your roadmap to personal growth, and also, while you can't control WAH, it wouldn't hurt to give him a little incentive, a spouse that only a fool to leave so that when he compares it to his flings you look better and better. You can't make the horse drink, but you can lead it to water, and you do that by DBing hard.
The problem is according to this marital history you didn't contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. It sounds like you had a few cranky months due to pregnancy but other than that you were a wonderful wife, and the problems all started because H cheated, and then the only things you did wrong were in defense for his destructive choices in his affair and horrible parenting. If this is the case great news, you're perfect, dump this guy and look for a perfect man that equals you.
Hmmmm...OK...not really sure what to say here! I thought I had put the things I had contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. I do not feel that having a few cranky months due to pregnancy can be classed as a contribution to it though, that was just me explaining what led up to H leaving the first time round. I was ill and if it had been an illness other than that of the mental variety it would not be being blamed for contributing to the breakdown of the M at all. The things I did to contribute, as I see it, are: snappy and irritable, unable to trust again after EA/PA, couldn't let the EA/PA thing go. One thing I didn't mention actually is that I was never particularly good at houswork either. Not cooking, I'm a great cook and provide well in that area. I'm a bit lax with other stuff though because a) I don't have the energy due to problems with my neck that leave me feeling drained and b) I live by the motto that the children are only young once and the dust will still be there when they're all grown and left home, so I tend to get out and do things with the kids rather than doing housework. Obviously the essential duties are done - I'm not a slob or anything! I don't think these contributing factors mean I'm perfect at all, although I had to laugh when I read that you'd put it as it is something H says all the time. Clearly I am giving off some sort of message that I am unaware of that both you and H spot.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
But if you're so perfect...why did H cheat in the first place? Of course it's his own decision, you're not responsible for his choices. Some guys do cheat in perfectly good marriages. But is that what he told you when you confronted him on his first affair? If I asked him about why he cheated and how you were as a wife, would his marital history look any different than yours?
All I can tell you in answer to this is what H said when we had MC after the 2nd discovery of OW (it was the same OW by the way). As I already said, he denies emphatically having had PA with this W. His reason for leaving 9 years ago was that he just couldn't take how I was any more (ie: the OCD and depression). As for why he continued to have EA with her, his answer is always that he didn't see why he shouldn't have a female friend just because he's married and they only ever talked about us.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
I feel like I keep trying to put the focus back on you and it doesn't seem to work. Maybe you need a year of anger. Maybe you need to hit rock bottom and realize that walking around with this pain and anger in your heart isn't making you feel good. To be fair, it's hard to start healing when you're still being beaten, so please, do GAL and set firm boundaries so you are able to start detaching from this man. I want you to save your marriage, but not unconditionally. You don't deserve to be betrayed. And you don't deserve to live in pain of unmet needs so great you are willing to accept it in the hopes of having them met. But at some point you are going to work on your own garden if you want to feel better.
It's not that I don't want to work on myself, I just don't know how, don't know what to do, don't know where to start. I think I'm doing OK with GAL although I might not go on about it much on here. I do so much with my children but it is not really anything new - I always have done a lot with them.
Firm boundaries - I am definitely struggling here. Don't know where to start, how to implement, any of it, I'd love help with this!
Detaching - I know some will just answer that detaching doesn't mean physically but mentally but I still don't see how I can detach from someone who is 'in my face' so much almost every day. Take today for example: I get out of bed at 7:10, 7:15 H has let himself in and sits in our family room nit picking at S while he eats his breakfast and gets ready for school, nit picks at things I'm doing because I should be doing this that or the other instead, then I leave for work at 8:15, feeling exasperated by his constant intrusion to our morning routine. He left! It has nothing to do with him! 5:30pm I finish work, get home and he is there again because he picked D up from school and the first thing he does when I walk in is shout at me for not answering his text message that I haven't even seen (I don't check my phone any more because he was the only person who ever text me on it and now I may as well be dead to him as he doesn't text). He stays until the children go to bed. He just sits on his phone not interacting with any of us unless it is to do a bit more nit picking at S. I am struggling to detach and I'm struggling to stay calm.
We had another mini argument tonight. I am exhausted from the constant lack of sleep due to the stress of this situation, this is making me snappy and irritable and he is pushing all the wrong buttons with his constant nit picking. Even my children are wishing he wouldn't come round because all he does is nit pick, sit on his phone and then leave. The last few days I have found myself questioning why I even want to R with this man. All he does is nit pick and suit himself - that is all he's done for at least the last year. Then I feel terrible for even thinking such a thing because he is the father of my beautiful children and we made a vow and it was supposed to be forever. I was supposed to go on cruises in my old age with this man. He wasn't supposed to break my heart.
Don't feel too hard on yourself. You are putting up with a lot more than I did. Can I give you few suggestions, I'm not saying that I'm right, maybe it can help.
Does H need to be in house in the morning so early, couldn't he come when you are about to leave? Since my STBXH has gone I'm no longer stress in the morning and kids are happier.
For the evening, could you pick up kids from where he is staying or agree with him to not stay too long?
I know it's hard, I have been there. Since I drop kids to their dad, I'm starting to feel better and don't resent him anymore when I have to see him!
Hi Inpain It's frustrating I know. Everyone suggesting you to GAL, Go dim, go dark, set up boundaries. Do 180's, DB'ing, move on, disconnect.. etc etc etc.
how can you do this while you are still grieving and confused. Not everyone can just put on a straight face and move on. We are all different.
What helped me is understanding my W's illness. I read everything I could on MLC and she still makes me bang my head on the wall trying to make sense of it all. What you need to read up is what you the LBS is going through.
Until you get through the stages of the left behind spouse, GAL is hard and setting boundaries are even harder to put in place because of the fear of upsetting H.
I read a link here on the stages of the LBS , I believe that Cadet started this discussion and its many LBS'rs talking about the stages they went through. Shock, begging, anger, withdrawal, anger again, acceptance and even forgiveness.
Some of the links in here don't work but you'll get that idea of what you are going through. Page 2 has a pretty good break down.
I'm sure there are other links maybe a bit more complete. Hopefully one of the vets can share them with you.
continue to educate yourself. I'm not saying you will feel sorry for your H because he is suffering inside and hes a broken version of himself. Its a constant battle for him. Nothing you can do to snap him out of it. Accept your own stages as they come.. the rest will follow as you get stronger to be able to deal with your MLC'r.
hugs
Irish
M51 XW43 (38 at bd) BD1 MAY 30 2015 BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text moved out Aug 2 2015 left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20) Her divorce Final July 26 2016 Last time she saw her kids Aug 2 2015
Don't feel too hard on yourself. You are putting up with a lot more than I did. Can I give you few suggestions, I'm not saying that I'm right, maybe it can help.
Does H need to be in house in the morning so early, couldn't he come when you are about to leave? Since my STBXH has gone I'm no longer stress in the morning and kids are happier.
For the evening, could you pick up kids from where he is staying or agree with him to not stay too long?
I know it's hard, I have been there. Since I drop kids to their dad, I'm starting to feel better and don't resent him anymore when I have to see him!
Hi Rouky, thank you for your help. I honestly am not really sure why H comes round so early on the days he is taking D to school. I haven't asked as I felt it was pursuing and I try to only communicate when he initiates. At first I thought it was so he saw S too on days that he wouldn't see them in the evening - but he even does it on days when he will see them in the evening and it is still a full 45 minutes before S has to leave for school!
I like both of your suggestions about before and after school. If he has brought D home from school he tends to just sit around like he is waiting for me to make the tea as he knows that S will always ask him if he's staying for tea and then he just kind of expects a plate of food! I've just been serving him a plate up to try to be the 'lighthouse' but I don't see it is having any effect. I am scared of doing these things in case it pushes him further away, but at the same time I think about doing them a lot and wonder if making our home less available to him would make him miss us/me and do some good. So tired of not knowing which way to turn.
Hi Inpain It's frustrating I know. Everyone suggesting you to GAL, Go dim, go dark, set up boundaries. Do 180's, DB'ing, move on, disconnect.. etc etc etc.
how can you do this while you are still grieving and confused. Not everyone can just put on a straight face and move on. We are all different.
Thank you so much for this Irish! Reading all that long list of confusion is exactly right - it makes my head spin!
Originally Posted By: IrishM
Until you get through the stages of the left behind spouse, GAL is hard and setting boundaries are even harder to put in place because of the fear of upsetting H.
This is exactly how I'm feeling right now! I really feel like I need to enforce some boundaries for my own sanity but, as you say, I'm terrified to do so for fear it will push him further away, make him angry and think, "Fine, I'll go to a solicitor then!"
Thank you for the link, I will make it my next 'homework' task!
Hi IP, I honestly think that your H hasn't felt the loss of his family as he still comes as it pleases him and he has food on the table. I know it's very hard, on the other hand what have you got to lose to put in place boundaries that will protect you emotionally. He has sacked you as his wife!
I'm sorry if I sound so harsh, it's only because I care for you and I have been in your situation. The best thing that happened to me was to limit my contact with him ( not his kids as you don't want him to use it against you). Honestly it is doing a world of good to me, even though if it isn't helping my M.
I'm feeling stronger and better by the day. Like you I was scared of him filing for D, unfortunately if he wants to do it I can't stop him. YOU are your priority, YOU need to look after yourself, rebuil yourself emotionally so you become a stronger woman when and if your H comes round and you'll be a me to support him as you'd have dealt with your issues.
You'll become a woman only a fool would leave :-).
I'll all the way be there with you as I'm few steps ahead of you :-)
Hi Rouky, I do think you're right. H is definitely cake eating right now, coming and going when he pleases. Enjoying meals here when he likes, easing his conscience by sitting with the kids for hours (but not interacting) and then leaving when he's had enough. I am afraid to put some boundaries in place in case it is the wrong DBing thing to do and he takes it badly. I do think he needs to feel the loss though, as you say. How did you set your boundaries with your H? How did you approach him with them? Thanks for walking this awful walk with me!
I didn't tell him anything I put them in place. I started by putting his shoes outside in the porch, then looked the door so he couldn't go as it pleased him (in case he'd want to challenge I'd have said to him that he has his own house keys, but never got to that), then after my horrible fight I needed to protect myself emotionally so I texted him saying that I'd drop the kids to him. When I did that I didn't think if it was bringing me closer to my goal as I felt an urge to really look after myself as I was constantly depressed.
I'm not saying I'm doing it right because no sign from STBXH, on the other hand I'm feeling so much better than I should have done that a long time ago.
