WW, My Addiction, Patience is HARD

[sandi2]

Please listen to me, Trumpet. If she will not gladly agree to transparency, then she has not really cut it off with OM. She is leaving a back door open.

You will never have a close relationship as long as there is trust. You have made the right move in opening yourself by giving her your passwords. The fact that she "claims" she ended the EA means nothing if she refuses to open herself to you by giving you access to her email, etc. it's that simple.

Remember, the burden of proof is on her. Do not accept her back into your open arms until she is willing to do whatever it takes to save her M, b/c she's just putting up a smoke screen. She isn't doing anything to get over OM and work on the M.

As long as she refuses transparency, just mark what she says as lies.

[TxHubby]

I sound like a broken record on this site but here I go again. Your wife knows 100% that you're a guarantee for her. She can do whatever she wants and you'll still be her safety net to fall back on if she fails to find a suitable replacement for you.

She'll never respect you if you stay in this position. Don't be anyone's plan B, ever. You're better than that. Work on the things you need to work on about yourself. Make yourself a better, more attractive person, but detach, do some new GAL things, and start moving on. If she does truly love you it'll snap her right out of this crappy behavior. Honestly she's just a cliche at this point and everything she's doing is textbook so the textbook 180 response should work but you have to commit to it.

[Mowgli]

I see what Sandi2 is saying...

You really can't control anything in that regard, right?

so you demand access and she says "no." Now what? you've just put yourself in a corner and pissed her off.

You can't control her actions, only your own. That's great if you want to give her access to your phone, but you can't force her to do the same. You only get to decide what you will tolerate and what you will live with. Make sense?

Even if you do have access, you can't be sure that she's not using another device or scrubbing hers before she gets home. Transparency is important, but it can't be controlled or enforced.

"I was expecting her to do the same to show she's ready to move on. Would that not be a good idea? Trying to build trust."

That's silent contract talk. I realize saying you want the access makes it not, but you have to think about the thought process there.

you are making the mistaken assumption that if you do "X" W will reciprocate. That's not how people work.

I'm learning that, slowly I might add, as well. People are takers. If we are givers, we have to give from a place of strength, not from a place of bargaining or meeting in the middle. We give with no "expectations."

with WW and WAWs this is particularly true. My W cake ate her way to the point where I was doing everything in the home while she was treating me like garbage and carrying on a full blown romantic relationship! I seriously catered to her every whim and it made me look like an idiot.

I'm glad she's extending the olive branch. I think that's great and looks like progress, but please, please, Trumpet, protect yourself! Don't trust her until she gives you a reason to. Demanding a reason does no good; she'll resent you for it or worse.

[tl2]

Giving her your creds and showing you have nothing to hide is a strong move, trumpet. I agree with Sandi on that.

But don't expect miracles. Look at it like a good strong next step for you towards strength, growth, and moving forward, and keep that momentum going so that you can GAL and continue detaching.

Release yourself from any unhealthy attachments to her and keep walking in your own direction and strength. What are your next moves for you?

[trumpet]

TL2,

I'll be taking some time off in January - car sales are slow then. Going to work on the basement - new shelving, selling some things on ebay for some additional cash, going to take the kids skiing (when there is snow - this is the worst winter for skiing in the upper midwest - ever!), and I might be taking a small trip by myself somewhere - a couple days by myself to think. That would be a complete 180 from what I normally do.

[sandi2]

I want to make sure my post is understood the way I mean it. Btw, the reason I asked "why" earlier was responding to what you said about reminding her again that you needed access to messages.

As a former WW, I can honestly say transparency is key in getting the MR back on track. My H did not have the DB tools, but I did......so I volunteerarly left everything available for him to see. I wasn't thrilled about giving up my A, and I had zero interest in putting energy toward working a M I thought was dead. However, I had no problem keeping everything transparent. It helped me tremulously, b/c it was a way of giving account of my actions. Of course I could have found a way to hide things, but if a woman is honest about ending the A in order to save her M, then she should not cry about it being a technique of controlling. It is a technique to earn trust for the LBS and a means for helping the WS to give account.

Whenever a WW resists and resents the transparency, I believe it is big red flags waving in all that hot air she's giving you about ending the A.

There are other things that can be done on a transparency plan. Having her passwords is only one thing.

Trumpet, I am concerned that your WW wants to hold you at arms lengths, pretending that she just needs some time, and pretending she's "thinking" about the transparency plan. I think she plans to gradually ease back in.........and you will be so glad to have her back, that you'll stop all that nonsense about transparency. Furthermore, I think you will, too. You are already taking her to dinner and acting as if the M has been reconciled.

IMHO, you can't continue to "remind her" you need her passwords. Trust me, she hasn't forgotten.

If you want to really see if she is playing you........wait sometime when she's reading or texting and reach your hand out and ask for her phone right that minute. If she fights you about it, she's hiding something. If she says to wait till she's finished texting, then she's deleting. If she has nothing to hide, she should not have a problem in gladly handing her phone over to her H, so he can see what a good girl she has been!

I find it rather strange that these women who wail that it is control and intruding on her privacy, etc...........are the ones who are lying and plenty to hide.

Oh, for clarification, following a transparency plan is nothing like snooping/spying. The S is suppose to agree to the transparency plan.

Have you talked to her about any other part of the transparency plan?

[trumpet]

Sandi,

Thanks for all the posts.

I have talked to her about that I need all her passwords, and access to her phone.

I got my new iPhone tonight. I'm still setting it up. While I had a break, she came downstairs for a minute. I asked her to come over and set up the fingerprint ID, so she could have access, and gave her my 6 digit access key. She flipped out, saying I was only doing it so that I could have access to all her info, and that she was NOT going to be doing that. I told her I still needed her to have access, so I would be accountable to her for my addiction. She reluctantly did put her fingerprint into my phone, but she then again reminded me I wasn't going to get any access to her stuff. Of course, I calmly said 'why? - do you have anything to hide?'... and she walked away and would not talk to me.

My spidey sense says something is still going on. It's really disappointing. Making strides, and then I have to now take a step back and figure out why she has to continue to hide something.

[TxHubby]

...of course she's hiding something. Then again, you already knew that and you already know what it is. We all do.

[tl2]

trumpet,

Several years ago, after first BD, here's what I went through:

- W confesses to multiple year cheating with one guy and agrees to NC, says she wants to stay in M and do the work

- A couple days later I find secret cellphone he gave her

- I put keystroke logger on home PC

- W agrees (again) to NC in MC as a part of rebuilding process

- Keystroke logger reveals she has been logging into his online accounts (mail, phone, victoria's secret, etc.)

- I start DB'ing...detach, leave her to her bulls--t, GAL, etc.

- I quit DB'ing gradually over time by not firmly enforcing my boundaries as we gradually enter into half-hearted reconciliation/reconnection that involves her lying and cheating multiple times (as soon as things calm down and I'm away from home more), and mainly faking being a contented W so that she can advance in her career until she is in a position where she's comfortable going out on her own. I participate in this cake-eating that goes on for 9 years.

- We're now divorced anyway.

Addicts are liars. She was also an alcoholic and lied to herself and others about that. She was addicted to her idealized relationships with other men, to the rush of endorphins, etc.

I'm not sorry I allowed her to stay because for the kids it gave them a more stable life and more opportunities and I would do that again. But I am sorry I clung to any sliver of false hope I could find because I couldn't fully let her go over the long haul.

You can't partially DB and be successful. As Yoda says, Do or do not. There is no try.

[trumpet]

I'm learning that, slowly I might add, as well. People are takers. If we are givers, we have to give from a place of strength, not from a place of bargaining or meeting in the middle. We give with no "expectations."

I appreciate the words, Mowgli. Like this quote alot.

So I did put a keylogger on her PC at home.

Got into her FB. No contact with OM, which is nice, but a conversation with her mom over the last month puts me in a bad light, and shows that MIL isn't really all that interested in her daughter continuing the marriage with me.

Wife hinted to mom that 'she's made a decision, and feel bad for trumpet'. Sounds like she plans to file the D after the holidays. She just wants to 'keep the peace' and feel better that she made a decision, and to stop trying.

Lots of other messages state that she's just 'confused' and 'doesn't know what to do'. She also stated that she is a guilty party, and is struggling with the guilt and shame from the affairs, and that she might not be worthy of being in the relationship, since what I'm asking isn't out of line, she just needs her privacy, and doesn't want to give it up. She gives me credit for the changes I've made - won't tell me in person, but is telling her mom.

I did reinforce last night that a marriage is built on trust, among other things. She agreed, but just can't give up her privacy, and esp. the phone, as there is no way to lock down the app she logs into work, which is client priviledged.

Any way to get around this, guys? I need transparency, and I don't really care about the work app, but her being up front with me would start the trust build. I need that to move forward. Otherwise, I feel like we're stuck in neutral.

In other news:
got my iPhone - YAY!
my achilles tendon has healed enough to get my half hour walk in this morning. Will be stretching it before and after, more than I was, and will be doing some exercises to keep the tendonitis from flaring up. Once you stop working out, and really need to, the stress level goes way up! I love working out now - never thought I'd say that.
I'm still heading to MIL/FIL. I will be on my best behavior. It will be a little weird, as I've lost a lot of respect for my MIL during the last couple months. My parents are supportive, and would love to see the W, but the MIL isn't really all that interested in seeing me married to her girl, so I'll need to pray and meditate a bit before I go... I need all the strength possible. I keep coming back that the kids want me there, and it's a very special time for them.

To all of you - Sandi, TL2, TxHubby, Mowgli, and anyone else I've missed - have a beautiful, Merry Christmas - I'll check in on the board every day.