Any differences between WAH's and WAW's? (2)

[Zues126]

I am so unhappy and lonely. I hate my living situation. I'm not sure how much time to give it, and I don't know how to work on me to make myself happy.

Sorry you had a tough day. Don't be too hard on yourself. Anything that happens in the first 90 days that isn't absolutely irreversible is a job well done. I'm saying it again.

I'd like to know more about your beliefs on M and D. When do you believe D is justified?

I know you're hurt, scared, and lonely. It doesn't feel good. Hang in and keep posting.

[lonelee]

Julie, give yourself a break. We all feel like we've broken the rules from time to time. shake it off, move on and continue doing the DB, I think from you post that not all is lost. I recall feeling so desperate as well at the beginning and lonlee is my middle name. Try to look at the positives that came out of you conversation with him .

1- he is noticing that your being short on the phone and not calling.. thats good .. let him wonder what your doing...
2 - he says there is no other woman.. hopefully this is the truth.
3 - he is telling you not to play the victim ..be confidant be happy positive attitude smile.. all things that show you are not a victim and you will not be broken by his actions
4 - he has not made any decisions to end things at this point. don't ask let him work on things.. and you work on you
5 - you feel good about the conversation because you feel he is still connected to you. good use this bit of positivity to spark you to keep doing the DB and work on your goals . all is not lost at this point.

your living situation is Stinky i agree .. so is mine .. but you can do this. I have been in your shoes and it is /was not easy. it may take a long , really long time for the tides to change.

How badly do you want a R with your spouse? Remember, this is your chance to make the changes in your next relationship to be what you want it to be. You weren't happy before you were separated so work on getting the things you want, into your next R. The marriage you had is over. time to think about what you want from your next R with your spouse and work on what you need to do to make it better.

My H recently said to me "its like were dating, but as a couple" Ill take that as a positive sign that we have come along way since BD in April. I have DB to thank for it, and all the wonderful friends iv'e made here along the way. We are not ready to reconcile and move back together at this point in time. And I can honestly say that at this point its just as much about me and my feelings about our R as it is his. Your H doesn't have all the power in this. You carry a lot of weight being the other half of this R. think about it.

we are all rooting for you. take pleasure in the baby steps, notice the small things, they add up to be big things in the future.

[JulieH]

Thanks lonelee. I really look forward to reading your threads. I have been scared of having hope in the babysteps. I have read about others babysteps that unfortunately do not always lead to success and it can be demoralizing. I end up feeling like, who am I to think my situation is different? That my husband is not having affair with OW. That this babystep indicates something positive. I would be a fool to really truly have faith. So you have given me some hope back.

[JulieH]

Thank you as well Zeus

When do I believe divorce is justified?

When someone's life is endangered, or a child's life or well being is endangered. No brainer.


But I know this is a more complicated question. It's not fair to be miserable your whole life and deprived of a healthy relationship but it's not fair to break vows and commitments when your unhappiness is fixable either. I will reflect on this.

[Zues126]

I'll offer my two cents

I like your answer. I agree, if it's truly self defense of you or the children, agreed with getting out of dodge. I could also be on board with chronic adultery.

Beyond that I think we need to suck it up. Because what's next? Addiction? To what? Drugs? Alcohol? Pornography? Gambling? Caffeine? Shopping? Processed foods? Facebook? Where do we draw the line? Should we include emotional abuse? Arguing? Years of resentment? Loneliness? Neglect? Lack of appreciation? No sparks? Poor sex life?

Guess what...if we used those definitions approximately 100% of married people could build an iron clad case for divorce. I really believe that any married person could hold up their spouse's imperfections and their pain and suffering to a jury of friends and family and be given a 'green light' to get a D.

But what does that accomplish? We have 300 million people in this country with problems. If we partner up, have children, then D each other and tear those families apart, only to swap partners with someone else with problems...all that's happened is that we've caused a lot of suffering just to end up with different problems. From a purely common sense perspective it doesn't make much sense. Sure, some individuals might find someone who's problems are more bearable, but that's the dragon everyone is chasing. The lure is that new relationships feel good for 6 months but D leaves a lifetime of destruction.

So I am of the school that believes everyone should STFU and stick it out. Is your spouse neglectful? Tough. Are they an alcoholic? Tough. Maybe, just maybe, if we were all truly committed to M, we'd invest more energy into making it better instead of just thinking "they'd better fix this or I will cut bait at some point".

These are my beliefs. I was in a M that was absolutely sex starved which for me would be a deal breaker if I had one. I mean, it's the one thing I can't get outside of M and it's my deepest physical/emotional/spiritual need and it was just flat out denied to me for years at a time...I felt so lonely I felt I was a single man that could never date again that paid 100% of my income in child support with no word of thanks. But even still, I was never going to walk, because I figured maybe in 5 years we'd work through it. And I still think we would've, if we had truly known our only options were to be M and miserable or to be M and find a way to be happy. But when the D option is out there it's just too easy.

I really like the 3 part series on "Marriage Expectations" by Andy Stanley. He talks a lot about what we should do when our spouse is failing our expectations. That comes in the later parts. About an hour all in. I'd love your take on it if you get time to view it.

I bring all of this up because I know your M stinks right now and you want more. I think it helps to know what you believe in, because emotions aren't always a good compass during times like this. And I always find it funny (or tragic) when a LBS no longer stands by their M because of their feelings when they get mad at the WAS for acting on THEIR feelings. I think we should follow our beliefs, not our feelings, and that we need to act with the character we wish our partners had. If we can't do it, it's not fair to expect them to.

Thanks for listening to my extremist ranting Julie

[JulieH]

Hi zues,

When do I believe divorce is justified?

I am afraid of committing to a definitive answer because I understand the irony and double standards that my answers will have. It's true. Often enough, I do not want to stand by my M because of my hurt feelings over my husband acting on his hurt feelings. thank you for reminding me not to rely on my emotions.

In my case, I can say that any physical affair would be grounds for divorce. This issue is Black and white and was clearly defined by both of us early in our relationship. It is a boundary neither of us would tolerate. As my husband would say, "you don't just accidently slip your..." You get my drift.

A lot of the other issues that have plagued our relationship are not so clear cut or easily defined. And we place different values on each of them, so it really would be a tragedy to tear a family apart when it's all due to lack of understanding, ignorance, effort and lack of simple tools. Too bad I never sought the tools until our family was torn apart.

That's why I do not think your views are extremist ranting. I think they are very rational and logical. People (that do not have severe mental illness) choose to have children and commit to raising them despite the difficulties. Why should you commit to marriage and then abandon it?

My husband and I both made each other unhappy for a long time. In my mind divorce simply wasn't an option. Instead I tried to fix it by trying to get him to see things my way. That was disadvantageous. I find that I am still doing this (at least in my mind cause relationship talk is very limited)

Will try to watch marriage expectations shortly

Julie

[JulieH]

After watching the first series I realize a better way of viewing it is committing to another person not marriage.

[Rouky]

I like your post Zurs126, and you are right when you say that our emotions get in a way, my only reserve is how can you carry on with our belief when your S clearly has his/ her own and there are the opposite of yours (you wanting the save your M, him/ her wanting out)?

[Vanilla]

Zues,

I love you dearly, but I can't agree. Some behaviours are so destructive, so selfish so damaging to an M, they require attention and other than 'sucking it up'. Gambling, smoking. Alcohol, porn, excess spending, religion etc when compulsive are very distructive. I could say a poor sexlife isn't a deal breaker, for you it is. No sex life is a deal breaker, if it's deliberate, what do you do if the spouse is ill, depressed etc.

It's a view, all sitches are different. Absolutely they are.

V

[Zues126]

Zues,

I love you dearly, but I can't agree. Some behaviours are so destructive, so selfish so damaging to an M, they require attention and other than 'sucking it up'. Gambling, smoking. Alcohol, porn, excess spending, religion etc when compulsive are very distructive. I could say a poor sexlife isn't a deal breaker, for you it is. No sex life is a deal breaker, if it's deliberate, what do you do if the spouse is ill, depressed etc.

It's a view, all sitches are different. Absolutely they are.

V

I didn't say no sex life was a deal breaker for me. I said it would be the most painful thing I'd have to endure. But I would endure it. I would not walk on a M.

You're right that 'sucking it up' isn't always the best option. There are many ways to handle these difficult situations, and they ARE all different.

My main point was that walking away from a marriage is not one of those ways.

Most people think they agree with that but then, when they aren't happy, their sitch becomes the exception that warrants D.

I only wish that these people would speak up at the onset. Instead of "for better for worse, richer or poorer, sickness or health, until death do we part" I wish they'd put an asterisk and mention "or unless you have any of the following 52 vices (list), 193 mental conditions (list), or you don't meet my following unvoiced expectations (list)". At least then I'd know to stay away from those people because I'd know my M would be doomed and it would just be a matter of timing.

Instead I'll have to be on the lookout. I think that these days the majority of people are following these 'adjusted' wedding vows. Even many of the members of this board. There's going to be a lot of empowered individuals that have multiple failed M's, torn up families, tons of pain in their heart, live singly with their own house/bank account and have a 5-10 year bf/gf that they get to know during their golden years to take walks with while they wonder what could have been...

For me, give me a miserable M that meets none of my needs and has me dealing with codependency and destructive compulsions. This is not what I'm hoping for or looking for, but if this is how it goes, which is all I've ever really seen in the real world, I'll be ready to navigate through it. And while everyone else is wondering why I put up with that, I'll be married and at times happily. I'm guessing 99% of the board is shaking their heads right not. Don't worry, odds are good next W will leave me again anyway, so I'll be able to enjoy the same empowered single lifestyle, and it will all be over soon enough.

In the meantime I still play a good game of pool. Somewhat compulsively at times...;)