Any differences between WAH's and WAW's? (2)

[Shrike]

Hi Julie! I have no idea what I'm doing here yet, but your last post especially really rang out to me. Lots of similarities to my thoughts right now. I haven't really laid my history/story out all that well as my mind skips all over the place and I write walls of text haha.

Any advice I give may not be good advice I kinda of just want to talk haha. Maybe bounce things back and forth for support!

Your first paragraph mirrors my story so well it's not even funny. She checked out of the relationship years ago. I tried, but didn't really listen to what she was saying. So many difficulties, so many arguments with finance and sickness and kids and moving. I felt like neither of us really wanted to deal with it. We were both trying to escape I see now. Each in our own way. Me pulling into myself becoming depressed. Her staying away from the house always with friends becoming angry and hopeless. But yes she left and is now living imo far easier than I. Says she "deserves" it. Sleeps in. Doesn't have to worry about bills. Only has to go to work and work on her "happiness"

Now about them being separated and seeing the 180's I don't believe they should be for them to see. They are for us. They don't want to see them anyway. They don't care if we change. Once we realize this I think it's easier to just move forward with ourselves instead of worrying if they know that we are doing all of this work.

I too worry about OM. . Actually it's one of my deepest fears right now. It's something I am going to have to really try to move past. Because it almost paralyzes me when I think about it. She has told me there is no one. And that she can't even start to think about someone else. Which I hope is true but am trying to have no expectations on that whole situation.

I really hate to say it, but something I was told is that once they've walked out the door they have made their first step, they have had it in their mind to do this for a while. They have already been preparing for divorce. I don't know the chances of you guys working it out. And I didn't read all your posts so I don't know your whole situation. But I don't think anyone will know the chances.

Your counselor was right. They don't have a reason to come back. But they didn't have a reason to stay in their minds either. Yes things are easier, yes they say they are happier. So what. We have no control over them. Never did.

As far as chances for reconciliation, from what I understand, it's better not worry about it. We truly have to let it all go. It's not something we can control, predict, plan for etc.. None of that. Easier said then done, I know I'm not there yet.

I'm sorry if I got to black and white straight forward. I've had a lot of anger today. And I'm typing on my phone >:( I really do have hope and trust in God that things will work out for the best. And that there will be light in the darkness that's surrounding everyone here. Again take anything I say with a grain of salt. And if any vets say things that have countered what I say, then I would heed their advice/input over mine.

Most important of all, don't lose hope in yourself!

[JulieH]

Hi hav hope

I guess a lot of our marital woes are pretty universal. I know a lot of our issues are described in numerous relationship books to the T. It's so frusturating. If only he would have read some of these books, or explored a different point of view on working through a marriage. But I can't control him.

Our situations are similar in that our spouses have not committed to a definitive answer. My husband has said he needs space, and does not want to make the wrong decision. Does not want to commit to reconciliation or things that would work torwards reconciliation like dates or marriage counseling partly because he does not want to mislead or send mixed messages to me or children (this makes no sense to me why wouldn't you try to do anything to prevent divorce...although we were both filled with anger and resenment so maybe he is right) but does not want to make any legal commitments (this could just be for financial reasons or maybe he truly is still attached on some level).

In a way this might be better because there might be hope that they are less committed to divorce? Or maybe it is worse, because we are left dangling...

In my case I am not collecting child support and not sure what steps to take. If I pursue it, he does not have to take that final step. I'm the one that will have made the decision and he goes guilt free. Telling everyone including himself that he wanted to try his wife filed. By not pursuing it, he lives easily getting to build up resources for himself. Does not really experience what divorce will truly be like. I am left in limbo and debating whether to do things that would be better for our relationship and finances and future but could potentially hurt me legally and financially as a single mom.

Yes you are right. They have been mentally divorced for a while. Nothing left to do but detach. There are so many ways I can analyze the situation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't depending on spouse. But that is all we have left. But a lot to consider. In my case, I'm gonna give it another few weeks of following the DB rules and then see how it is progressing.

P.s. You give great advise, and I love hearing from the husband perspective. (My husband hates relationship talk, is a poor communicator, was very emotionally withdrawn)

[Shrike]

I guess a lot of our marital woes are pretty universal. I know a lot of our issues are described in numerous relationship books to the T. It's so frusturating. If only he would have read some of these books, or explored a different point of view on working through a marriage. But I can't control him.

Its actually pretty fascinating to me that we can all be in such similar situations, have similar feelings, that span age,sex,time etc. I am more frustrated at myself for not knowing about these books or trying to see it from her point of view before she left.

Our situations are similar in that our spouses have not committed to a definitive answer. My husband has said he needs space, and does not want to make the wrong decision. Does not want to commit to reconciliation or things that would work torwards reconciliation like dates or marriage counseling partly because he does not want to mislead or send mixed messages to me or children (this makes no sense to me why wouldn't you try to do anything to prevent divorce...although we were both filled with anger and resenment so maybe he is right) but does not want to make any legal commitments (this could just be for financial reasons or maybe he truly is still attached on some level).

In a way this might be better because there might be hope that they are less committed to divorce? Or maybe it is worse, because we are left dangling...

Couple nights ago she said in no specific way that its going to be a divorce she just doesn't know when. And I guess for me its easier that way, because I know where we are at. I would hate to wait around for her to make up her mind, never knowing where it was going. On the other hand, I have little hope in reconciliation before Divorce, I do know 2-3 couples that have re-married but it is definitely rare from what I've seen. And this kind of crushes me.

Take the following with great amounts of salt, I am not a mind reader haha, I only know what I have done/thought.
He sounds unsure of what he is doing from what you have been saying at least. He is probably scared. Has he had a hard time committing to anything in the past? This may be whats happening. I know I always took forever to make decisions, because I was scared I would make the wrong one. When I joined the military I was mortified that I had made a bad decision. But it wasn't, and while I hated it when I was in, in retrospect it made me a stronger person. This might be where he is at with all of this. And that may be no consolation, but hopefully insightful.

In my case I am not collecting child support and not sure what steps to take. If I pursue it, he does not have to take that final step. I'm the one that will have made the decision and he goes guilt free. Telling everyone including himself that he wanted to try his wife filed. By not pursuing it, he lives easily getting to build up resources for himself. Does not really experience what divorce will truly be like. I am left in limbo and debating whether to do things that would be better for our relationship and finances and future but could potentially hurt me legally and financially as a single mom.

I think that for this, you have to make the best decision for you and the kids. Looking at the picture now, not what may happen. You guy's are physically separated, he doesn't want to work towards reconciliation. He doesn't want to commit for potentially financial reasons. All red flags IMO.

I don't want to say give up. There is always HOPE in eyes. Definitely watch and listen. But I think if the time come's to make the hard decisions, then don't set yourself up for failure. You deserve to be happy, your kids deserve security and happiness as well.

He is still going to have guilt, but who cares if you make the first step. You will know the truth of it. Your conscience will know the truth. Your kids will know the truth. He can sit there and pretend he did nothing all day, but that's on him. If you get tired of waiting around for him, then I say do it. Not saying rush out and sign the papers first, but definitely do what you think is right for you and your kid's.

Yes you are right. They have been mentally divorced for a while. Nothing left to do but detach. There are so many ways I can analyze the situation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't depending on spouse. But that is all we have left. But a lot to consider. In my case, I'm gonna give it another few weeks of following the DB rules and then see how it is progressing.

I am right there with you. I have pretty much gone completely dark. I only respond to texts from her about bills, or my daughter. I am waiting and watching. No rush. Trying out patience. Working on myself (trying to make it for me not her, but difficult to do.)

And thank you we all have to support each other. I was right where your husband was 3 weeks ago, but as a 180, I will no longer keep my feelings inside, and will communicate openly anything I desire ha ha. Relationship talk is the oil in the machine of marriage. If we avoid it, the marriage eventually breaks. (except with my wife at the moment, cause im detaching if she opens back up, then we will see if i have truly learned anything. )

[JulieH]

Havhope...

yes . husband is certainly not the impulsive type. He took 1 year to tell me he loved me, and a very long time to propose (I never pressured him on either decision as I was pretty content). He tends to take a long time doing things (something very frusturating for myself and others to deal with) and is very meticulous. I have to say that when he does something it's always done correctly. He is only capable of doing 1 thing at a time. I had such faith in him that this would never happen. He was so dependable and trustworthy and stable and loyal. I miss him.
That is why I know how serious this is. This was not an impulsive move. He was unhappy for a long time. Many of his friends are getting divorced, so despite coming from a family Where divorce just simply does not happen, I don't have much confidence that he will choose to work on things. i thought his unhappiness was due to finances and his job and our living arrangement but I guess it was me. We moved in to my families house for financial reasons and things deteriorated fast. He feels like I was always criticisizing him and took him for granted and that he tried to make me happy but I was always negative. And he's right. He was so detached this past year, and the stress was never ending. I actually feel like he was doing things to avoid reconnecting with me. I felt like I was set up to fail.

It's weird but a few days after I had my blow up at him (screaming about child support, and that he abandoned us, and wasn't being good father and other stuff I don't even remember.) we talked on the phone and he was ready to proceed. He told me "this ship has sailed we are just both afraid of change and that I really hurt him" I discussed all the reasons to stay married..our vows, there is still love, I can work on myself, the kids, reasons cited in DB book, etc. and he ended up saying he needs more space and that I shouldn't worry that he would not just file without tellin me. Afterwards he has been more interested in kids, waking up earlier to see them, and actually asked me to join them to dinner, but things were very distant and polite.

I have no idea what's going on. Hes away now and only texted 1x to ask about kids. I feel like No other contact clearly means he is not thinking of me and wants out. I want so badly to call him. I want to ask him if there is still chance for reconciliation or has ship sailed but I know that's the worst thing to do. I am terrified that when he returns he is going to say he wants to proceed with divorce. The writing is on the wall but I keep holding out for hope. I am dying to call right now as I write this and just ask him but it will ruin the 18 days of me being faithful to sandys rules. Plus he honestly might not know yet.

Honestly I think chances are slim and I'm just fooling myself.

[JulieH]

So I guess the real question is, what type of chance do sandys rules and 180s have when spouse had been checked out and actually doing everything possible to avoid connecting for about a year. Especially now that spouse has moved out.

[Zues126]

If he was distant it was because he was afraid of being hurt again. It wasn't because he didn't love you and stopped being attracted to you. Imagine a rose surrounded by thorns. Reach for the rose, be stung by the thorns.

Remove the thorns, let him see that he could be safe with you, and he might come back. You can't talk him into it, or make promises, or do anything you've done before. You must genuinely learn what was hurting him, validate it to the point that you change yourself, allow him to see those changes, and then trust it to work out as it was meant to.

The challenge is that usually we have our own fears. Our own insecurities. We weren't hurting our WAS's by choice. But validating their concerns would somehow force us to confront parts of us that frighten us, that we didn't think we could change. And by default we put our discomfort ahead of their needs or feelings. And they were hurt. So it's not an overnight process, 'ok, I get it now, c'mon back and it'll be fine'. It's more about understanding why we're so afraid of making those changes, addressing them from the roots, then gradually deciding to grow into a person that is stronger.

This is pretty touchy feely, but the point is that his biggest fear is that he will love you too much and return, only to be hurt again. Work on the thorns, and let him approach at a pace that is safe for him so you don't scare him off.

[JulieH]

Zues, thank you.

I want so much for what you say to be true. I am actually afraid to have hope that what you say could be true.

I have to reflect more on this, but I think he might feel like i could never accept him for who he was. He feels like I was never happy with him and always complaining. He felt like I never had patience. We are so different and I was trying to fit him into how I thought things should be. Also intimacy was neglected after kids and then he felt used when I wanted to conceive again (this is true after experiencing multiple miscarriages). I subconsciously blamed him for everything that went wrong as well and I don't know why.

If your analysis is correct would I still only initiate contact with him when pertaining to kids or would friendly non relationship conversation be appropriate? Should I invite him on family outing or wait for him to do so? We only see each other during drop offs and he does linger in my families home. Should I just proceed as is for now? I have to try to get coldness and anger out of my voice and will reread your message before I see him on Friday.

I Was miserable past few days but after reading your post I have some hope again. I think i might actually be able to get some sleep now

[JulieH]

Right now I am feeling like my husband is being ridiculous and I just don't want to play these games anymore. I don't want to be worried and depressed anymore because he's being an [censored]. I'm sick of it. He is acting like a big [censored] baby and I'm acting like this lovesick puppy victim. I just want no part of it anymore. Time for me to detach. I will remain polite but I cant do this anymore.

I hope I feel like this tomorrow.

[JulieH]

So far I am doing great with holding back on pursuing behaviors. It's been 21 days without any. I'm feeling less paranoid and obsessed with other woman and I get the urge to confront him with my anxieties less and less. Not asking for reassurance is making me feel more powerful as well.

He did push my buttons on a topic that really bothered me. It involved my family. The call and topic was initiated by him. The good thing is I did not respond with nasty comments or anger. It did not result in a fight. And I did a little bit of validating. My bad reaction I is that it bothered me so much I called him twice to defend my family.

Had my 3rd session with DB coach. She feels like I need to focus more on being a friend to him. Right now it is hard for me to be anything but cold and polite. I am hurting. I feel like he abandoned us. I am angry that he is doing this. I am angry because he blames it on me. I am mistrustful and anxious that he might have legal/financial motives.

She told me I need to be more friendly and talk to him as I would a friend. That I need to act as if...And that good feelings are contagious, that positive energy is powerful.
She told me That it is good to go on family outings together for the kids. (Something I did not want to do because I don't want to be just a co parent. I don't want him to have his cake. I want him to realize That a divorce will not be amicable and wonderful with us all being friends)
She also said That it is ok to give him a compliment once in a while. That its ok to initiate a friendly call. Just no pursuing.

Any insight to this, as it seems to be opposite of what I read on the boards. Perhaps because I'm a female dealing with husband who left? Perhaps she could sense my negativity and feels like positivity would be the 180? Any ideas?

I'm not sure how to be anymore!!!!!!

[Zues126]

It's not easy.

We can't fall into the trap of thinking there's a right way to be to maximize your chances of getting him back. That's a covert contract, "I'll act this way and then you'll want me back". He won't do his part, then you'll be resentful, and that act will fade.

The only thing we can do is improve ourselves, using this crisis as a catalyst, and looking for the grain of truth in their spew in terms of holding ourselves accountable.

The big challenge is that you're hurting. When you're hurting it's really hard to see beyond yourself, and it's hard not to be angry at the person you feel is causing you that pain. But that's real life. I've realized that part of being in a mature relationship is behaving in accordance with your beliefs even when you don't feel like it.

That means standing by your M even when you are sick of it.
That means treating your H respectfully even when you don't feel he deserves it.

These are 180s. Because I'm guessing that during the M you didn't do these things. An H's biggest need is for the approval of their W, and often measure this by sex life. If you judged him and found him lacking and withheld his deepest emotional and physical needs because you were angry...maybe this is a good 180.

Don't judge him. Don't treat him disrespectfully. Draw boundaries to avoid getting mistreated, but grow up into a person that can recognize that his pain and his emotions are as important as yours when you're on a TEAM. Look at things through the TEAM lens. Realize that getting what you want and bulldozing him to get it makes the team lose, and that's kind of what happened here.

To recap, how should you act? Act in accordance with your core beliefs, and I hope those beliefs are about commitment, respect, and the ability to give validity to his needs and feelings to the same extent as yours.

This won't happen overnight, so no need to rush. But create some good checkpoints. How much of the time do you spend thinking of the pain you're in vs. thinking about the pain he's in? How much of the time do you think about where he's being unreasonable, vs. thinking about where you're unreasonable? What are some things you can do to get beyond yourself when you're blinded by pain and anger? These are things to consider.

In the midst of all of this just be your best self, relax, take things one day at a time, give him space without walling him off, let go, and work on yourself to become the best person you can be.

And so on...;)