The Hen House

[cat04]

Last week we had a rather interesting thread started, The Man Cave. While that thread is no longer here because the content got controversial to say the least, I really liked the idea of it.

I want to encourage the women here, vets and new posters, to post their thoughts, feelings, and questions regarding men, home life, what women want, etc...

I am not saying guys can't post, I think that would be wrong, but I also would encourage one of them to start a thread for men.

These forums are a safe place to vent, talk, and learn. While sometimes people don't feel that is always possible because eventually they are encouraged to dig deeper instead of simply venting and defending themselves, the growth that comes from that and from the conversations that happen here can be amazing.

Lately I have been thinking about the topics of emasculating men and how we women can do that without even realizing it and how to stop doing it, because it definately doesn't get us any sort of end result that we want.

Any thoughts?

[susana4]

Interesting thread!

cat04, do you have any examples of how we might emasculate men? Like in what context? Is it something you think happens a lot?

Something I've been thinking a lot about lately is repressing feelings or not being in touch with them. H is like this to an extreme (he recently said he doesn't know his feelings or opinion on any topic), and a lot of my (female) friends have commented 'it's a guy thing'. It is stereotypical for guys to not talk about their feelings (IMO that's because they're socialised not to), is it really a guy thing to not know their feelings or opinions on any topics though? To what extent to most guy experience it? And do you think there's anything we women tend to do that exacerbates this? (I'd welcome responses from guys too actually!)

[Cadet]

Being a guy I have to be the first post.

I hope that we do not exclude anyone as I am totally against that.

However you can say anything you want here(within the TOS) and it wont bother me.
I have thick skin!

[RosaLinda]

Hey Cat, thanks so much for starting this thread. Hi gals, my name is Linda, I'm 62, Dbed for about 5 years, have moved on and am now happily divorced, in a new relationship and am loving my new life

Lately I have been thinking about the topics of emasculating men and how we women can do that without even realizing it and how to stop doing it, because it definately doesn't get us any sort of end result that we want.

This is sort of a sore spot with me too, as I feel that my own actions in my marriage may have totally emasculated my ex 20 years ago. He had lost his job and was depressed and vulnerable. I thought I was being supportive by taking on another job and paying all of the bills, while he became "Mr. Mom" but I think it made him feel even worse about himself. I thought it was supposed to a temporary arrangement, but he never held down a full time job ever again. He got more and more depressed, which I did not notice, and finally went into a full blown crisis years later.

Now, after all the reading I did in my quest to turn myself into a woman only a fool would leave (ex did turn out to be rather a fool LOL) I sort of think that men define themselves by their jobs a lot more than women do. It's not politically correct, but I think that men have totally different needs from women, and should be allowed to be men, not expected to be hairy women.

I have often cringed hearing the way some women speak to their husbands in the store, as if they were toddlers or idiots. I bet they would not speak so rudely to a stranger, yet humiliate the person they should love and support most in the world in public. I cannot imagine how they speak in private, bet it's not pretty.

Something I've been thinking a lot about lately is repressing feelings or not being in touch with them. H is like this to an extreme (he recently said he doesn't know his feelings or opinion on any topic), and a lot of my (female) friends have commented 'it's a guy thing'. It is stereotypical for guys to not talk about their feelings (IMO that's because they're socialised not to), is it really a guy thing to not know their feelings or opinions on any topics though? To what extent to most guy experience it? And do you think there's anything we women tend to do that exacerbates this? (I'd welcome responses from guys too actually!)

Susana, your husband might be confused and sort of an extreme case now, especially if he's in a MLC, but I think you are exactly right, and guys are NOT socialized to share their feelings like us women are. Have you read any books on the subject, like "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" by John Gray? That helped me a lot to understand how men are just wired differently from us, in the way they think and react. I never read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, but took the LL quiz online, and it was a revelation to me. As a "touch" person, I always thought that my ex did not love me because he did not like to be touched. Now I realize that he showed his love the best way he could, by doing stuff for me. I highly recommend you google the quiz online, and start showing your husband that you love him through your actions, in his love language.

I just recently read "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard Harley and really recommend it, it will teach you a lot about how men's basic needs are different from ours. And also recommend it for anyone in a new relationship. The guy I am dating suggested it to me, and we read it together. But he is an exceptionally awesome guy

And LOL Cadet, you're a brave one

[susana4]

I have often cringed hearing the way some women speak to their husbands in the store, as if they were toddlers or idiots. I bet they would not speak so rudely to a stranger, yet humiliate the person they should love and support most in the world in public. I cannot imagine how they speak in private, bet it's not pretty.

Ugh, I hate that too. Although in general I hate when people are rude or critical to each other in public, or put each other down. I find it so demeaning!

Susana, your husband might be confused and sort of an extreme case now, especially if he's in a MLC, but I think you are exactly right, and guys are NOT socialized to share their feelings like us women are. Have you read any books on the subject, like "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" by John Gray? That helped me a lot to understand how men are just wired differently from us, in the way they think and react. I never read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, but took the LL quiz online, and it was a revelation to me. As a "touch" person, I always thought that my ex did not love me because he did not like to be touched. Now I realize that he showed his love the best way he could, by doing stuff for me. I highly recommend you google the quiz online, and start showing your husband that you love him through your actions, in his love language.

I just recently read "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Willard Harley and really recommend it, it will teach you a lot about how men's basic needs are different from ours. And also recommend it for anyone in a new relationship. The guy I am dating suggested it to me, and we read it together. But he is an exceptionally awesome guy

Thanks for the recommendations RosaLinda! I haven't read any of those, so some more things to add to my reading list (after I finish re-reading DR for the 3rd time!). I will pick up 5LL first because I've heard so much about it. I actually took the quiz a few years ago but had forgotten about the book. I just re-took it and I was pretty evenly split between words of affirmation, physical touch and quality time (maybe I'm too demanding!). I read through it and I'm not really sure what language H is, I think either acts of love or touch. But I saw a really good tip in one of the articles so I thought I'd share it here (it seems DB appropriate too!) - they recommended if you're not sure which language your spouse speaks, to spend a week trying each language out (and using that language on your spouse that week) and rotate each week, then evaluate at the end which one they responded to best.

Wow, he suggested reading it together? The guy you are dating sounds awesome! You're lucky!

[cat04]

Linda,

You know, I too emasculated my X in many ways.

I was always worried about his health and he had back issues so more often than not, I would suggest he ask a friend to help him do things that he could have done alone. I figured it would just make it easier for him and less likely that he would get hurt. It made him feel like I thought he wasn't capable of doing stuff (house projects etc...)

So honey, you aren't the only one guilty of that.

Susana,

When I look back at my M and I look at my current relationship, I can see where my core beliefs (in what a man should be able to do and want to do and how they should behave) are enough to cause me to have thoughts and feelings that could be emasculating to a man. And there are times that those thoughts and feelings, while not expressed verbally, just sort of ooze out in everything I do...sighs, eye rolls, tone of voice...

Correcting things that they do, questioning why they are doing something, criticizing how they do things, comparing them to other men are all examples of ways that women emasuclate men.

I think in this day and age it happens way too often.

And I think that women owe it to themselves and to men to work to NOT do that sort of thing.

Because it doesn't make for a good relationship in the long run.

Anyway, right now I am really tired (been fighting a cold for a few days) and I don't know if this is making much sense.

And yes, men generally have been taught historically not to talk about their feelings. Not in the way that we women talk about feelings.

Something my BF has told me, when I get antsy because he doesn't have an opinion on something...if it isn't important to him, he generally doesn't give it too much thought. Now if it is important to him and I am a good girlfriend (ie, use my listening skills, make eye contact, and keep my mouth shut instead of inserting my own thoughts over his), he will talk for hours. And it's really nice

[Train]

Another Train novella that includes A LOT of venting ... with (I think) a point:

I, too, liked the idea of the Man Cave and took some good stuff from it - and was left wanting more. I thought the original post unfortunately kicked the thread off in an exclusive, arrogant way. And clearly some of the male posters here agreed. And - on the topic of emasculating men - here's what struck me as super-interesting: I was turned off (I say that in as non-sexual a way as possible) by the "boys-will-be-boys" and "remember women, this is the MAN CAVE" posts. What "attracted" ME was the few who jumped in and said: "Um, no. This does NOT represent me." And - coincidentally - those were the men later called "girlie men" by the male-creator of the thread. But I didn't see that AT ALL. I think that took MORE courage, which made those posts the manliest of all!

I digress. I'm just still playing all that over in my head. It was really an interesting - albeit brief - "social experiment" on the differences in men and women and a "litmus test" of sorts (for me at least) on what I, personally, find attractive in men.

Cat, I appreciate that you started a thread that is inclusive and then takes it a step further by asking your target-audience - women - to dig deep to figure out how we are contributing to emasculating men. I like it. And I like the accountability in it.

Incidentally, I've also been giving a lot of recent thought to this very subject and have even talked to some of my friends - and my D17 & 18 - about it.

I saw the other day, cat, where (if I'm remembering correctly) you stated that the feminist movement is primarily responsible for emasculating men. I think it played a part by starting a ball rolling to empower women. But I'd hate to think of this country if it hadn't experienced women's suffrage (and the feminist movement) and the civil-rights movement (even though the latter is erroneously blamed by some for things like looting and riots like the feminist movement is blamed for men being "feminized"). In the interest of full disclosure, my minor in college was Women's Studies; therefore, I studied the feminist movement (and other minority movements) quite extensively and don't shy away from calling myself a feminist. (Interestingly, it shocks people to know this considering I'm still with my H after his two As, but that's diving in a little deep this early in your thread. )

I think women ARE contributing to emasculating men. But I don't think it starts in Ms. I think it's starting at birth - with mothers and sons.

I have three daughters and one son. I have raised my daughters to be independent powerhouses. And I - admittedly - "baby" my son in comparison. I've always theorized that's because as a woman, I know what my girls are up against in this world. And I raise them to be prepared for their experiences. I've always looked to my H to do the same for my son. It's not that I love my son more. I raise him how to treat a woman lovingly and respectfully. I expect my H to teach him how to be a "man." And I HOPE I'm doing right in that ...

But, alas, H's mom babied HIM, too. She was the definition of the "perfect" 1950s wife and mother, and she and I have spoken about this very topic extensively. My H's father was the disciplinarian, who used his belt to punish when my H misbehaved. H still recalls his dad coming home from work and eating cheetos and smoking his pipe in his recliner while reading the newspaper ... while his mom scurried around the house, cooking dinner, cleaning, canning and raising her two sons.

My mom wasn't the 1950s W, per se; she wasn't even born until 1958. She was abused as a child and became a conflict-avoidant W and mother while my dad called the shots. But she has ALWAYS babied my little brother (the only boy of three kids). She still does. And she's finally acknowledged that her love for him was just "different" than her love for her daughters. (Which makes my stomach turn.)

Recently, my D17 had to deal with a "boy mom." She had broken up with her on-and-off-again boyfriend of four years several months ago. And as usual - as is typical for "young love" - they were getting back together. And this mom - who has supposedly loved my D17 since she was 13 and has taken her in as one of their own when D17 was dating her S18 - went ballistic. As in: psychotic. She literally started bullying and harassing my D17, texting her to tell her to leave her S18 alone. Forbidding them from dating because my D17, the last time she broke up with her S18, had "broken his heart." She went so far as to go to the cell-phone store to block D17's number from her S18's phone. She forged emails and sent them to D17 from her S18's email address. She called the high school guidance counselor to tell her to keep D17 away from her S18. It was shocking - and sad - for our family because we've known her S18 since he was 15 and consider him just another part of our family. The mom went so far as to call ME on a Saturday night and warned me to keep my D17 away from her son. I told her I wouldn't do that because I didn't want to turn them into a modern-day Romeo and Juliet. I encouraged her to let things ride. "The kids have been dating on-and-off for four years," I said. "Break-ups are natural and healthy. It's how they learn about relationships. Just let it ride. D17, so far, has been accepted into three out of the four colleges she applied to; we're waiting to hear from the fourth one. She's on her way to big things. Just let it fizzle out." And - I'm not even kidding - this mom laughed and said to me (over the phone): "So just leave him alone? Why? So he can turn out like YOUR daughter? You raised a WHORE! You have an 18-year-old daughter who is PREGNANT. You raise WHORES!" She went on to also call D17 (whose never been pregnant) a whore ... and ... (wait for it) ... ME a whore since I was pregnant at 18!

THIS is how invested this mother was in her 18-year-old son's life.

She went on to tell her S18 - when he was on the phone with her and sitting beside my D17 - that D17 was trying to "get pregnant on purpose, just like her older sister" (which, fwiw, is NOT true; my oldest daughter IS pregnant and is DEVASTATED but made the tough decision to carry and take responsibility for the child she helped create ... which is more than I can say for the douchebag that knocked her up).

Instead of standing up to his mother - instead of standing up FOR my daughter, who he has dated for four years - this legal-adult boy tucked his tail between his legs and cowered to his mom, telling D17 that he thought it would be best if they would just "let it blow over" ... but keep seeing each other secretly.

Here's the thing: my daughters were raised differently. First, I was a single mom until D18 was 6 and D17 was 5. I raised my girls to be independent and strong because that's what they need to be in this world. Their dad had little-to-nothing to do with them. And when they were 8 and 9, their stepdad walked out on them, too. He walked out again on us last year. (I'll get to that in a minute.) They're a product of their past AND what they were taught by me, a single mom, through my words and my actions. They watched me go to college full-time - graduating when D18 just finished Kindergarten and D17 was headed INTO Kindergarten - while holding down a full-time job to provide for them. They saw a mom who was determined. Capable. Strong. And they've ended up the same way.

Meanwhile, their male counterparts have their mommas coddling them.

My D18 is pregnant. Baby Daddy's family knows. She's 25 weeks along now. She still texts Baby Daddy, even though he hasn't had the testicular fortitude to come over here and meet H and/or me. We've never met him. He told D18 earlier on that his mom stands behind HIM in wanting D18 to abort or put the baby up for adoption - basically, to "get rid of the problem." Another coddling boy-mom. Meanwhile, my D18 is over here, doing the heavy-lifting, watching her body change, her life change, her perspective change, her priorities change. Her EVERYTHING change. And Baby Daddy (age 20) just cops out. He says he's "scared." He wouldn't even tell his parents because - gasp! - they told him if he got a girl pregnant they would stop paying his car payment and college tuition.

As for my current H? My older daughters have been abandoned by him twice - once when they were 8 and 9 (when I was pregnant with S8) and then again last year (after we'd added another daughter, now 3, to our brood).

Did I play a part in an unhappy M? You betcha. Here's what's weird: H left in 2005, just 18 months after we were married, because - he said - essentially I was too independent and too mouthy. I was wildly successful in my career, even though I didn't make NEAR the amount of money H makes/was making. My success made me feel powerful and confident. By contrast, it made HIM feel "stupid" and "ignored." He has confided in me now that he had second-thoughts about marrying me *at the moment I was walking down the aisle*. I laughed and told him he wasn't the only one! (Neither of us knew the other had such doubts.) I put him second to my job. And he left me for OW1 when I was almost two months pregnant with our S8. He came back home four months later with an OW who was two months pregnant. I took him back and forgave him, realizing I needed to get off my high-horse and should drop some of my old built-up walls that I had created to "protect" myself.

H told me: "I'm torn between your independence and my mom's 'June-Cleaver' status. I need you to be my wife. I want the life where my wife adores me and takes care of the house and has a hot dinner waiting on me when I get home from work."

When I found out that one of his issues was my independence and my job, I resigned once S8 was born. I became a SAHM, just like his mom was. I thought that was the ticket; that would make him happy (and it would make me happy, too; I could take my job or leave it, for the most part, and I loved the idea of staying home with my son). I even started homeschooling my son when he started Kindergarten. And I started canning. And baking. And crafting and sewing again.

And guess what? H left again last year. Guess what he said? I had lost my "drive" and my "confidence". And those things, he said, made him fall in love with me. (When I landed a freelance gig while H was wayward in the same profession I had left because THAT had apparently made him unhappy 9 years ago, he was literally SEXUALLY aroused that I had people begging me to come work for them!!!)

(I mean, SERIOUSLY?!? OMG, the struggle is REAL!)

I have and I WILL take my licks for creating an unhappy marital environment. We're working HARD through our issues. And I'll completely agree that grown women are emasculating men. But at least from where I sit, and at least specific to the current, younger generation(s), they're castrating them at the same time they're being circumcised ... and not necessarily after they're marrying them. (But I'm absolutely certain that's happening, too.)

I've been guilty of it, too. BIG TIME! My H works two jobs so that I can stay home and raise our kids and cook meals and take care of our home. (Yep. Hardcore feminist, I am. ) He leaves the bills to me. And instead of getting behind him when he wanted to make a job-change because he was miserable, I hovered over him, nagging about our bills and how he CAN'T change jobs from the place making him so miserable because of how it would impact our bottom-line. I have nagged him silly. He wanted to spend money he earned on things that made him happy. I told him those things were too expensive.

Man, have I learned what a disservice I did to our M.

I mean, yes. My H has made some bad choices due to his unhappiness at work. Those bad choices left us at a point where we had to fight foreclosure of our home. (In other words, yes, when he made ONE bad choice, it created HUGE - and long-lasting - consequences for our entire family.) But that was ONCE in 10 years. And I chose to hold that over his head and treat him like another child to "keep him in line" because of that decision. When he left for the second time, I was forced to ask myself: Would I rather be WITH him and in risk of losing my house or WITHOUT him and CERTAIN of losing my house?

That was a huge eye-opener for me. And it's been one of my biggest - and, admittedly, HARDEST - 180s since he left most recently in March 2014.

And you know what? Surprise of all surprises: H recently started complaining about his job again. I started freaking out, internally. But, I remembered the question I asked myself when he was gone (above), and I told him: I don't want you to be miserable. Am I worried? Yes. You know that's my nature. But I believe in you, I know your family is your priority, and I know you will make the best choice to benefit all of us. I believe in you." All a sudden, he crunched his OWN numbers, he made his OWN choice not to leave his current place of employment (yet), and he has had a MUCH more positive attitude at work. And, he smiled at me and said: "You've really changed, Train. Thank you for believing in me."

I don't know what tomorrow will bring. But that was a great lesson for me.

I know I've been long-winded and have flipped around everywhere and gone around my a$s 18 times to get to my elbow.

But those are my observations.

In my particular case, I'm raising strong, opinionated, determined daughters. My oldest daughters have been abandoned by men. They watch me forgive. (They don't see that H has any reason to forgive, even though I know I've wronged him, too, but even though I talk to my daughters about it, they don't "hear" it.) They're tough. They almost expect to be abandoned these days. Meanwhile, the moms of 18 and 19 year old boys are threatening and bullying these girls ... and supporting their sons shirking their responsibilities, like babies they helped create.

That isn't a product of the feminist movement. That's a product of mothers raising weak, entitled sons that run from the hard stuff while girls take on the heavy-lifting, which, in turn, empowers them and makes them know they can do things alone. And those girls end up married. And then they treat their spouses like boys instead of men.

I'm wayyyyy over-generalizing. I'm just speaking from my little corner of the world. And, yeah, I had a lot to say. Like I said, this very subject has been weighing on me heavily the past while.

I just hope I'm raising my son to be attentive and sensitive but strong and honorable and chivalrous and resolved. I hope I'm raising him to be the kind of man that had the courage to show up in the "Man Cave" the other day and talk about chicken wings and beer ... but also felt man enough to tell another man: Uh, naw, bro. I won't get down like that. That's no way to treat women.

And I hope my son meets a woman that LETS him be that man. And loves and values and respects him for it.

[jim0987]

Hi, apologies if I've misunderstood the etiquette here, as I understand the idea of the thread but I felt I could contribute to what is a really interesting discussion.

I think you have to include the role of mass media in all of this. In the uk there's are many adverts for products that if they were advertised in the same disparaging way with the make/female roles reversed they would be decried and likely banned. These contribute to wider societal emasculation of men and we start to see it replicated in the home. (There are other issues in the way the media portray men and women as well I know)

I would also say that if you havent, read MAFM,WAFV. Personally I found its description of Martians quite accurate. I'd love to know what sort of proportion of women associate with the description of Venusians

To me expectations are a lot of the problems, and more specifically when they lead to resentment because they aren't met without reflection on how or if they were communicated and whether they are fundamentally reasonable. I think these expectations can really emasculate men, particularly as they increase in scope. Generally I think a lot of men (me included) have quite fragile egos and 'the pecking order' (had to use that one) is evolutionarily ingrained in us - we are very sensitive to perceived failure, and thus dropping down the order.

Generalisations of course and like everything just my take.

Have a good day

[gan]

Hi All,

First, having raised objections about the Man Cave I feel a need to clarify why I am posting here. (1) Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell, Cat has not been in a cat fight (sorry, couldn't resist) with another male poster and so this is not a trap to get female posters to rally around her perspectives. Her attempt to make this about female perspectives is sincere and I'd support something similar for the men out there. I am happy for men to read along and contribute here if they want to. Let's all learn something about each other together, eh? (2) My friend Jim has raised some points and asked a question that I want to respond to. I could do it on his thread but figured it might be more useful here.

Jim - very interested to hear you say that MAFM/WAFV is accurate from your perspective. I was reading it in the weeks prior to BD and indeed I found it enlightening. Certainly I could identify times when I got roasted by the dragon because I entered the cave thinking that was what I should do. Actually, MAFM/WAFM is one of the reasons I am now leaving H be, to figure out his own $h1t. It feels completely odd as it is not at all how I would usually deal with things but that is what I am doing. I hope it was the right choice!

As for the Venusians perspective of MAFM/WAFV, there was a lot that resonated. In particular, for the first time I realised I was probably not alone in feeling a need to be comforted by H when there was conflict, even though he was the source of my pain. Sometimes I would retire to the bedroom or whatever to cry it out after a fight...and expect him to follow me and console me. Except he wouldn't and then I'd feel more hurt. And I get that now for 2 reasons. (1) Men aren't wired to do that. Martians work through their problems themselves and only after they've exhaused that will they reach out to others (if MAFM is to be believed). (2) He didn't know that is what I needed...and why would he? I mean its pretty confusing right, that the very person who inflicts the pain would be comforting. Once I figured this dynamic out I actually expressed this need to my H and I can tell you that I never felt more loved than when he came and gave be a hug after we had a fight over something or other. I could see it was a stretch for him and it made me love him even more.

But...

I also found a lot of MAFM/WAFV difficult to digest because of the subservient way in which women are portrayed. Much as I wanted to heed the advice, there's a lot in there that just doesn't seem in keeping with women's roles today (at least not mine) and I found that hard to reconcile against my view of myself. I think this comes back to Train's post about feminism. I've often wondered - now that women are educated, have high paying jobs etc - where does that leave men? I'm asking that in an empathizing way, not in a we don't need you kind of way! I question what this turn of events has done to the MAFM/WAFV dynamic. Sometimes I feel like we've just retrofitted this new social paradigm over our old biological programming and now the whole thing has had some unpredictable consequences. Like in the bedroom for example...but that is probably something to address later in the thread!

So to return to your question, Jim, I would say that yes MAFM/WAFM does offer some insights into how women think and feel about things. For me personally though, it didn't motivate me to want to respond in kind to the male perspective - largely because it felt like it contradicted my more modern social programming. HTIYMWTAI, on the other hand, had me in tears regretting a lot of the things I had said and done to H. Somehow that book did a better job at explaining the male-female dynamic while not triggering this other response in me - and made me feel much more inclined to change my ways as a result. I still can't pick it up as it makes me too sad, but I will if and when I am next in an R.

[Lifes Twists]

I will say that I feel it is a good thing to have these conversations between members of one gender where the other has the opportunity to read and get a better perspective of how the other perceives things and responds. As a man, I was insulted by how the man cave was started and how the originator continued to thump his chest and label and belittle those who disagreed with him.

On the subject of emasculating men. Society tends to force gender specific roles whether we want it too or not. Men are raised to to support their families. So they tend to identify themselves with work. Women are raised to have babies and take care of them. So they identify themselves more with their children and families. So when a man is unable to provide he gets lost and has nothing anchoring him till he finds a new means to support his family. I don't know if its the woman or society that emasculates the man, it just happens.