Busting this Divorce - Separating

[Wonka]

25,

HP's other thread is now over 120 posts which will bring out the Lock Monster out of his cave to devour it so he was advised to start a new one (this one).

[GoatGal]

Arrrgggghhhh....

I just replied on your old thread...
Please read it since I *think* I was on a roll...

[GoatGal]

Here's something to brighten your day:

Re-reading through some of what Mrs. HP has been saying, much of it comes off as a frantic back-pedaling maneuver.

That is total mind-reading on my part.
But it kinda sounds like you called her bluff.

Which means the forecast could be partly sunny as far as you're concerned.
All the MORE reason to play your cards right the first time.

Nothing changes, just an awareness that, despite what she SAYS, she's not quite ready to be done---yet.

Just an impression. But she facing the reality of losing you and the life you've built, which may not have really hit home until now.

All the more reason to give HER space as well...to really think things through on her end.

Didn't you say OM was "successful and married"?

If so, one has to wonder if Mrs. HP really thinks a future will pan out for her.
Lots of obstacles there.
The stakes just got a whole lot higher for her.

My H was a young married woman's OM. He APPEARED to be wealthy and successful. He lied to her, used her, and never had any intention of replacing me with her. He got caught, things blew up all around...

But I have no doubt it would have ended anyway for countless reasons. Not the least of which was she wised up to the reality and dumped his a**.

So you are in the Catbird seat, my friend. Whether you know it or not.

You are a known quantity, you are the father of her child.
He is some would-be rescuer who is hardly free to spirit her away to the land of Forever in Luv....

There's a lot that has to happen on his end first.
Don't think W doesn't know this.


So the stakes in this game just got a whole lot higher.

---(G)GGG

[HPoirot]

Yes 25 this is my latest thread. My other thread kept growing as I started this new one. Crazy times.

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

Yes of course you are right MrBond. Through the last couple days I was more focused on W's reactions and my ploys than on becoming a better me. I do see, though, that I incidentally got in some work on myself... my surprise GAL adventure, my boundary setting attempts, trying to stay calm and not quitting after making a mistake, and better poise dealing with W face to face under stress. Small improvements and I am determined to do more building on myself and more understanding of W.

While it's true that OM is not the cause of the M breakdown, per se, introducing him into a troubled situation as a fix on her end hardly helped things.
And most women would not be walking away from their M unless Fantasy Man was there to cushion the fall.

So yeah. His presence IS significant and cannot be discounted by her.

Hello GG. Again thank you so much for your support in my crisis yesterday. I'm so tired now of OM watch but yes I agree his presence stops any movement of W in my direction. If I bring him up, she just say "he's not the issue" as she did the first day so it's not worth it to do again. Lesson learned. I need to get back to building better me now. I have not worked on my business, not caught up with work, and not got ahead of my financial situation. Being successful here will do more for my mental swagger than my GAL success so far. I must make these happen.

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

That is an excellent point. I see it would take a lot of confidence in myself and my future either way to simply think this way. That's what better me would think. I'm getting closer to that sometimes when my head is clear and I'm feeling successful. Yes, I can just feel successful more often and then I could just surrender to this idea.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

No need to apologize... I see very clearly how needy I become in reaction to W's actions and lack of affection. I see how all this has highlighted my need to not be alone again. I fact, I can honestly say now I'm grateful for this experience to work on this. I see for years I thought I was an independent person b/c I thought I didn't need anyone. But it was always my dependence on my W that I was leaning on. She got tired of carrying me and she won't have me again if I can't stand on my own. She even said she was afraid to leave me b/c she felt I would fall apart. So far I have struggled but not fallen apart completely . I can do much much better though... not just hiding my neediness but just not having it.

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy. One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

[Wonka]

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy. One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

^^ That is a dangerous path to walk on. Everyone compares themselves against other people and think they're not good enough. What you do in your line of work has a VALUE and isn't measured by one's bank account.

Get your mojo back, HP!

You're really neglecting your work and I would advise you to channel your focus on it. I know, I know. Easier said than done. In the early months after Ms. Wonka walked out, I had a very hard time focusing at work. Just wanted to pass this on to you so you can benefit from our experience.

[GoatGal]

HP,

Don't believe everything you read. My H's resume and job description make him sound like a "Master of the Universe."

Trust me, he is anything but.

Real men with integrity and who are secure in themselves don't need to sneak around and cheat on their wives with another man's wife!

Just sayin'

For example:
My H has been able to talk a good game to impressionable people with poor self-esteem themselves. Like his OW, his "landlady".... his employees. He puts on a mask of self-assurance. But underneath is a scared and damaged little boy. I've met him. He's a mess.

My H, Big Boss though he is, avoids people on his level or above.
Like me.
Like his old friends, like his superiors at work. He surrounds himself with underlings and sycophants. He is clearly uncomfortable in the presence of people who threaten him for whatever reason. If he has to be around them, he finds ways to put them down and diminish them. That is not an attractive quality either.

As for me--apparently I am all kinds of scary!!!
(Independent, smart, decisive, confident. He has said he "prefers" women who are beneath him, who are only fodder for a "shallow relationship". At least sexually. Well, good for them. Count me out!)

So==Don't endow OM with endowments he likely does not possess.

He's probably a messed up guy who is thriving on the thrill/attention of the affair, who may be bored, maybe having a MCL of his own.

He's nothing to write home about, because he is a cheater and a liar.

Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

--(G)GGG

[Wonka]

So==Don't endow OM with endowments he likely does not possess.

Don't know...but methinks that's one heckva Freudian slip right there, GGG!!

[HPoirot]

Here's something to brighten your day:

Re-reading through some of what Mrs. HP has been saying, much of it comes off as a frantic back-pedaling maneuver.

That is total mind-reading on my part.
But it kinda sounds like you called her bluff.

Which means the forecast could be partly sunny as far as you're concerned.
All the MORE reason to play your cards right the first time.

Nothing changes, just an awareness that, despite what she SAYS, she's not quite ready to be done---yet.

Just an impression. But she facing the reality of losing you and the life you've built, which may not have really hit home until now.

All the more reason to give HER space as well...to really think things through on her end.

Didn't you say OM was "successful and married"?

If so, one has to wonder if Mrs. HP really thinks a future will pan out for her.
Lots of obstacles there.
The stakes just got a whole lot higher for her.

My H was a young married woman's OM. He APPEARED to be wealthy and successful. He lied to her, used her, and never had any intention of replacing me with her. He got caught, things blew up all around...

But I have no doubt it would have ended anyway for countless reasons. Not the least of which was she wised up to the reality and dumped his a**.

So you are in the Catbird seat, my friend. Whether you know it or not.

You are a known quantity, you are the father of her child.
He is some would-be rescuer who is hardly free to spirit her away to the land of Forever in Luv....

There's a lot that has to happen on his end first.
Don't think W doesn't know this.


So the stakes in this game just got a whole lot higher.

---(G)GGG

I think you could be right here GG. Every time I have taken control in this sitch or agreed with her separation threats, she has backpedaled. She also mentioned, for what it's worth, that OM is not someone she would walk away from her M for. He "makes me feel good" and "puts me in touch with a life a could have" she says. She's really trying to "catch her dreams." Recently, folks in her family have died. She's starting to feel rushed to get somewhere and right now she believes she can't get there with me. She's angry we haven't "built anything." Mind reading.

She can be all over the place but she is committed to S11 who she feels is better with me than with her and she often expresses she doesn't feel like a great mother. She also said, when we were better together last week, that she was feeling like she was "getting sucked in again" and that she considers staying b/c our M was "not the worst thing in the world." More mind reading... but yes, if I can make significant personal improvements for myself while really detaching from her in the 6 or so months we have to live together, then things could get better here. I can see that thank you.

My problem now is, after these last 2 days, I'm treating her a more like the neighbor I only tolerate...

She called earlier. I did not answer. She texted me to have S11 call her. I did.

Now, she just texted me "how is S11?" I didn't answer immediately.

She texts "Can you please just let me know?"

I say ... "Good. Eating stew. Subdued but not sad."

She texts back a note about his meds and "Thanks for replying. I will not text again."

Things like that. Like writing to say how her OM lying is disrespectful and unacceptable (but still doing it). Like going to sleep on the couch yesterday while she has a very painful back injury (for which I saw she now takes prescription pain meds) after my OM boundary back and forth. Like the 20 texts and phone calls after I said we were no longer friends and I would divorce her.

I don't know what all that means and right now I to tired to think about her.

I am grateful to Wonka for his script to stop her calling. I think now she gets the message. actions. actions. actions.

Even so, I would like to get back to the place where I had her laughing and smiling. Filling her love bucket. But now I don't see how that's appropriate or acceptable with her A. So I'm just to be friendly to her but not friends to protect myself and my mental health right? Of course not to be punitive.

Well in any case... I'm thankful for the phone being quiet. Thank you everyone.

[25yearsmlc]

Yes 25 this is my latest thread. My other thread kept growing as I started this new one. Crazy times.

"Just have to trust the DB approach to ending it. "

There's one important thing you need to understand. There is no "DB approach". DBing means to do what works. Even if you didn't have the DB book, you should be doing that any way. DB is not a ploy. It's building yourself back up after the devastating news of your M potentially ending and learning how to understand your W and where she's coming from.

It still is up to YOU to determine what to do and when to do it.

Yes of course you are right MrBond. Through the last couple days I was more focused on W's reactions and my ploys than on becoming a better me. I do see, though, that I incidentally got in some work on myself... my surprise GAL adventure, my boundary setting attempts, trying to stay calm and not quitting after making a mistake, and better poise dealing with W face to face under stress. Small improvements and I am determined to do more building on myself and more understanding of W.

While it's true that OM is not the cause of the M breakdown, per se, introducing him into a troubled situation as a fix on her end hardly helped things.
And most women would not be walking away from their M unless Fantasy Man was there to cushion the fall.

So yeah. His presence IS significant and cannot be discounted by her.

Hello GG. Again thank you so much for your support in my crisis yesterday. I'm so tired now of OM watch but yes I agree his presence stops any movement of W in my direction.

I just read the same comments you read, and then you reached a conclusion that for ME, did Not follow.

IMO, GG did NOT say "his presence stops ANY movement of w in my direction".

IN fact, I read her previous comments a lot differently. Same for Wonka's....don't negate the positives!

Catch yourself being negative, b/c it's not serving you well OR your situation. I urge you to watch yourself for this trait popping up and giving you miscues often.

Don't want to beat a dead horse but this does trouble me b/c it's a pattern of yours that you either are not noticing and or you don't think needs any adjustment.


If I bring him up, she just say "he's not the issue" as she did the first day so it's not worth it to do again. Lesson learned. I need to get back to building better me now.

Even wonder if your wife is telling you what she thinks is true? And might she be right?

YES, While OM made her departure from your marriage, EASIER, (so would a million bucks)

it's NOT the same as being the cause of it AND it's NOT saying that she cannot or will not change her mind until if and when he leaves her. I have seen MANY adulterous spouses choose their spouse and then return. In fact, isn't that what YOU did after your affair?

Did your OW have to leave for you to return? Even if so, its' not fair to apply that to your wife, is it?

--

Neither of you put enough into THIS marriage or relationship, and in your case you had a previous affair with your "epic love".

Yet somehow you still want to be married to THIS woman. Right?

So why is it impossible for you to imagine her having the same experience/discovery on her end?

That is an excellent point. I see it would take a lot of confidence in myself and my future either way to simply think this way. That's what better me would think.

Start BEING the better you and STOP waiting to feel like it. "Externals" can create internals. Meaning, you can engage in new different behaviors that create the emotion you seek INSTEAD of waiting to feel it first. (That's a crap shoot).

Please watch the TED Talk videos on changing how we think/are. One is by Amy Cuddy on "Faking It til You Become It" and the other is something about Positive Psychology by shawn Achor.

Don't poo pooh these^^ b/c they are both profound and empirically supported with great data.

They only last 20 minutes and can be, literally the start of a life change.


I'm getting closer to that sometimes when my head is clear and I'm feeling successful. Yes, I can just feel successful more often and then I could just surrender to this idea.

Also, work on your tendency to radiate neediness. Forgive me if that stings, but at times you simply reek of being needy. Like you have to have someone, (maybe anyone), on your arm, and or paying attention to you

or you can't/won't feel good about yourself. Like your self esteem comes from others and not yourself.

No need to apologize... I see very clearly how needy I become in reaction to W's actions and lack of affection.

If I got this right, this^^ is you blaming her for YOUR self esteem issues and Your neediness. Catch yourself pretending to own something (while in reality you don't.)

I think your wife could have been excellent to you, & you might still have wandered with your OW from your past. Check the double standards at the door.

On one hand, your wife "caused" your low self esteem which indirectly places the blame for your prior affair, on HER as well. However, for HER affair, you played no role and it's all or mostly on her...and the role you may have played is explainable and defensible b/c of other things she did "TO" you, correct?

HP, you can't have it both ways, even though you sure are trying to.
You SEEM to be saying she is to blame for your neediness AND she is to blame for your prior affair, AND she's also to blame for her affair...

What do you believe you are solely responsible for in the m, that isn't good?

I hope you see my point.



I see how all this has highlighted my need to not be alone again. I fact, I can honestly say now I'm grateful for this experience to work on this. I see for years I thought I was an independent person b/c I thought I didn't need anyone. But it was always my dependence on my W that I was leaning on. She got tired of carrying me and she won't have me again if I can't stand on my own. She even said she was afraid to leave me b/c she felt I would fall apart. So far I have struggled but not fallen apart completely . I can do much much better though... not just hiding my neediness but just not having it.

IF you believe she will not choose you or your marriage over OM, can you tell us why that is so?

I know why... because I believe he is solid in his confidence. I've seen his profile on line... I know who he is. He is successful in his mind and so he is internally happy.

Again you are following the belief that if certain External conditions are met in your world, THEN you can be happy. But that's not how life works. Otherwise the poor would be miserable and the wealthier would be happy but that's not the case often.

Let's invert that^^ sentence to read "He's internally happy, so he is successful in his mind". B/C I think that's 1) more likely AND 2) in his control.

If you are counting on external validation ("Success") to validate you "SO" that you can be happy, you are mistaken.

^^^THIS means you are powerless...b/c storms or economic factors or wars or politics will "STOP" you from being happy -- IF you are depending on those other "Conditions precedent" to be happy.

Just BE HAPPY, and you will be. Why? How? B/c you are going to remind yourself that you are healthy and free and a father with healthy children, who is employed and in our freedom loving nation. And those factors just placed YOU in the top 10% of men, globally.




One of his first emails to W was his resume. It is impressive. He has a high visibility job. He sent W a recording of a (confidential) financial conference he did to impress her. He knows to show her his belief in his ability and how that shows up in the world. He likely likes himself and believes in what he does. While my resume is impressive and my work affects millions and enables millions for the company I work for, I have not believed in my work. I am not impressed or excited by the results of my work. I do not believe in or am engaged with in the company I work for. Before now, I would work all day lazily in my bathrobe. W said a couple weeks ago, when I was a consultant with my own business (when she met me), I was energetic, interesting, and impactful. She's all about impactful. OM is a Who's Who board member type. A social person. And he's older. W likes men who can be father figure like. She used to call me Daddy when we really ML (I never liked that btw). That's where I must to get back to... for my own mental health. Just being impactful in my thoughts, attitude, appearance, and life. It starts by me making choices to be happy.

You did a TON of mind reading, and often you threw yourself under the bus here^^^, but you finished strong, with a simple TRUE statement.

Make the choice to be happy. Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knew that we have to make it happen. Happiness AND LOVE do not land in our laps. We must choose to create both in our lives.

[Vanilla]

HP
Sending the "game changer text" required a lot of courage and faith. This seemed to turn a corner for you. Whilst analysis is very important and for the immediate future working on yourself is absolutely vital for yourself this now shows that you are open for change and if you want it this can happen with more ease.

Breathe.

You made a big major shift by sending that text. In 12 steps we call this acceptance of change. A desire to move forward. Crucial to repair and recovery.

A time when HP can feel proud of HP.

Reflections
Vanilla