No one is "right" about everything, but I believe Mach offers a lot of wisdom in his words. I also believe his bedside manner can be a bit rough at times. But that's ok, we have UR to cover that!
Truth is, you are stuck Matt. Nearly everyone here can see it. I think if you're honest with yourself, you can see it too.
"The most difficult times for many of us are the ones we give ourselves.” -Pema Chödrön
I hope you don't allow this last bit of inflammatory posts to drive you away, you're better than that. One day, you'll be a vet. One thing I'm sure of is that everyone here truly wants the best for you.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
If you are tired of posting to me cat, please feel free to not. You are off base in many of the things you are saying IMO but again, that's your right.
Why is it that MY protecting myself financially is "punishing"? Why is talking about the VALUE of something (no repairs to the house so it's worth less) making an excuse? It's NOT an "excuse", it's a statement of fact. The house is worth X. The "community assets" are worth Y. If Y exceeds the value of X, then it's in MY best interest to sell the house and split the assets. Whether or not my W or you or mach think I should just roll over and say "Oh, well. Since W is in crisis, I should just let her keep everything of value" and doing anything else is just me being "superior" and "punishing" I still have to protect myself.
All the feedback I got when I wasn't trying to protect myself was "Don't let her take advantage of you". Now when I decide to take action, I get Mach and now you cat, telling me I'm just being judgemental of my MLC W and the poor thing is just trying to stop her pain. Oh, how dare I want to keep anything of value that we both worked for. I should just let her scream and shout and run around like a child and get her way, literally? Or did you miss that post?
As for you saying "Matt thinks he was a perfect H and is just condescending" isn't even worth commenting on from someone who is being as condescending as you are in saying it. I have never said I was a perfect H and at this point it just doesn't matter if I was or wasn't! My post was about making sure I get a fair D settlement, nothing more. And the only reason I needed to get to this point was because I was trying so very hard to be more than fair to my W and in the process, behind the scenes, she was doing the opposite of what she was saying she would do.
Look back over the last several months cat, and you will see how I tried to do things YOUR way. I didn't fight my W on anything. I helped her pack and move. She wanted something, I was fine with it and let her take it. I validated her and the way she wanted to do things. Not my way but that's up to her. And what happened? Nothing except in the meantime I found out that far from her trying to be "fair" in the D settlement, she is trying to get everything she can and doesn't care at all about anything but herself. You can say that is fine as that is what people do and that is true. So, now I have decided to do the same but my doing it is some how "wrong"?
I don't attach any "value" to the things except the monetary. When you are talking about "things" that are worth, in many cases thousands of dollars, there is nothing "so-called" about their value. In fact I don't want to 'keep' the antiques she has taken, I in fact will most likely sell them since that is the "value" that they have.
So, I'm not detached? How can I explain this to you so you will see....I don't care at all what my W is or isn't doing as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on me or my D14. Problem is until this D is over, I have to care about what she is asking for in the D settlement especially when what she has agreed to and what she is now doing are very different. When I have to take actions that negatively affect my life because my W doesn't want to "put herself out" when, say, my D14 locks herself out of my W's house and she tells her to "call your father" instead of taking action of her own, I feel that is irresponsible and yes I don't like it. The only reason I even hope that my W will some day be able to have any sort of R with me is so we can get our D14 through the next few years with as little problems as possible. I have no "romantic" interest in my W at all. The person she has decided to be now is so different from who she was and not someone I would want in my life.
You know cat, everyone here is in pain. They are going through a very hard period in their lives, harder than almost anything else they will ever go through. It is hard for me to do things that I know my W will find "upsetting" since she is already in crisis and I still remember that at one time I vowed to love and honor her until death. If I was able, I would love to just say "Take it all. I just don't care." but I can't do that. Because of my W's actions, her crazy spending, her hiding money, her telling me that she had not a single thought of leaving the M and therefore cashing in MY retirement and just a few WEEKS later, her saying she wanted a D, I find myself in a position where I have to fight for a fair settlement. In order to do that I have to look at what got us to this point. Remind myself that this isn't my W anymore. This is a "business partner" and I need to get a fair settlement for all the work I put in in our 20 year "partnership". That's not "easy" when she still looks like the person I M.
Of all the people I have posted with on this site over the last several months, even those who called me out when I was spinning or not thinking straight, only you cat and mach seem to think it's OK to be insulting, to make broad judgements about my entire 20 year M or the part I played in my W's MLC. Only the 2 (Ok, there is also at least one other now that I think about it) of you seem to think that no matter what I do unless I say "I was an awful H and I am to blame for my W's actions" I'm somehow being judgemental or superior. That I am somehow "wrong" to want to protect my d14 from her mother's craziness or unless I see my W as a "victim" I'm playing the "victim". To me you seem to want to be an apologist for the MLC. That every person has a "right" to treat their S with disdain since I MUST have done or acted in a way that "caused" her to get there. I just don't agree with that line of thought. Do I wish my W ill? No. I do I want to punish her? Absolutely not. What I want is, if she no longer wishes to be m to me, so be it. But I will NOT let her keep taking advantage of me in the process. I will fight for what is as "fair" as possible. I always had/have a choice in the way I 'behaved" in my M and I tried my very best to do the "right" thing. Did I always succeed? He!! no! But I did try whether you choose the believe that or not. Maybe you just can't believe that anyone ever acts except in their own self interest, I don't know nor will I speculate as that would be wrong. Just because I disagree with what you think doesn't make me "wrong" nor does it make me superior or judgemental or any of the other things you want to ascribe to me. I have gotten so much great advice here from people like Heather, Wonka (although he has had to kick me in the butt many times), Georgia, pbetra, TL, GGG, brooklyn, the list goes on. Never once did I feel insulted by them, even when they were telling me how "wrong" I was being and why. Only a very few have done that, cat.
And lastly, the definition of insanity....is EXACTLY why I have decided to change the way I have been handling things in my D. I trusted that my W would keep her word and acted as such by giving up all the things of value, REAL value not sentimental, now, if she gets what she wants, I will have been taken once again by a person who is acting not only selfish, is going against the LAW in our state when it comes to "community property". So, you see, I am "changing".
Man, a lot going on while I was writing my last post....
First of all, thank you Heather you put my feelings into words better than I could. There is a way to get your point across that isn't insulting, doesn't make broad inferences about what did or didn't happen over the last 26 years or how someone acted or didn't act in their M. What bothered me most was I finally did listen to what everyone was saying about "allowing" my W to just take things, not stick to her word when it came to the D settlement, how things were going to work with our D14. I decided to take action (finally) to stop that. Because it's hard for me to think of my W as just some person who is taking advantage of me, I needed to remind MYSELF as to why I needed to just say NO. Hence the list of reasons why I felt I needed to put my foot down and take action.
Then, when I did, someone comes on and tells me I'm just "punishing" my W? Tells me that as the sage vet they can see that I just am acting out of pain or anger when I'm really just doing what I should have done from the start, protect myself. Not only that, I'm a hopeless cause that will never change into someone whose W isn't totally justified in acting out! The biggest pain I feel about my W is that in order to protect myself and my D's, I have to see my W as who she is now. Holding onto hope that she may someday come out of this and stop acting cra-cra wasn't helping.
As far as this "judgemental" theme running through some of these posts...man. I guess I am since I find that when the person I was with for 26 years has decided to become someone else and do her up most best to take me down since I must be to blame is something I find very 'wrong" of anyone to do! Just like you I'm certain I wasn't always the greatest S in the world whether I meant to be or not. But, honestly Heather, do you really think that Smokey was "justified" in his actions? Do you honestly think that he is a victim of you and your poor M skills or do you see that you and your actions have very little to do with how he is acting now?
The pain I feel most is for my D's, both of them. How it feels when my D19 tells me how she just can't trust her mother any more. The pain I feel when my D14 is no longer the outgoing, happy girl she was and is withdrawn and lonely. Just yesterday on the ride home from school my D14 was almost in tears. I brought out what the problem was and to be honest, if her mother hadn't "lost it" she wouldn't be there. She had a good cry, all goes back to OK and I get a nasty text about lunch money from W. It's hard not to get angry and think "Why do you worry about this so much when you D is in so much pain".
Either, as most "vets" say, we lbs's had little to do with their crisis, we didn't break them so we can't fix them OR we were awful S's who drove them to run away. Which is it?
Don't ever think that Smokey was "justified" in what he did. It may not sit well with some of the vets here but I'll be darned if I would ever say the things he has said and done, the way he has treated you and the kids has ANY justification!
I have much, much respect for you Heather. You have taken your life into your own hands and done what many couldn't have. You are starting over in a new place, you have broken the bonds that tied you to Smokey (which, since you were together for so long were strong). I would take your advice over almost anyone else since I have watched you process through this sitch that you never wanted, handled things with grace (mostly,LOL) and are starting over. You deserve high fives and kudos all around!
I won't just stop coming here. Anyone who gets upset with me or see's me as a "hopeless" cause has every right to feel that way. Seeing people like yourself who are picking themselves up from the wammy that they got from their S and making a better life for them self and their kids is inspiring and gives many others hope that they to can do the same!
Thanks FY, I am feeling a bit better now. To tell the truth, I was feeling good before and really started to think "I will get through this and I will get a fair D settlement". Then BAM!, I found myself getting hit with bombs. Thank you for the support.
Hey Matt. Here's the thing in all of this. We all want to see you come out the other side whole. We really do.
It wouldnt do you any good at all if we were to commiserate with you about all the things you say your wife is doing to you.
When I was going through all of this, my xh did some things...I had to pay half of a $60,000 debt I knew nothing about,he took money for over a year, invaded my retirement funds and sold my jewelry,he hid that he had a job in another state and moved 6 hours away from our only child. There's more, but, you get the idea.
Did it succk? hellz yea. Big time. But, those were his choices. He has to reconcile them with God. Not my job.
The thing I learned is that he took so much, I was not going to allow him to take anymore. I dont mean monetarily or physical things. I mean, I wasnt going to allow his actions to control me.
Do I wish he didnt do those things? Yea. But, he did what he did and that's on him. I could only control me. I was not going to live my life feeling like a victim because of someone else's actions.
Your wife feels how she does. No one person's feelings are more important than someone elses.
The thing is that you want her to act in a way that you think you would act. She isnt you. You arent her.
I wanted my xh to be happy. That was my wish for him. It still is.
So, I decided to live my life not feeling powerless. I lived it not feeling like a victim because I'm not one. I had power in all of it. I got to choose who I was and how I wanted to live. I got to decide how I wanted to act. I got to choose who I became. Not because of his actions....but, regardless of them.
Live your life. Show your children how to navigate through tough times with dignity and courage. Yes, protect yourself fairly. Remember she is the mother of your children. Please dont tell me, but look at what she is doing. Yes, protect yourself, but, dont react.
I wanted to honor my long term marriage. So, I chose to act in a way that did that.
It's time to stop trying to figure out why she is doing what she is. It's time to stop blaming. It doesnt serve you well. It weighs you down. It saps your energy. Energy better spent on you. Just live your life in the best way you know how. Do what you need to do to move forward, Matt.
You are stuck going round and round about your marriage and what you did for her. You were married. You loved her. You did what you do when you are in a relationship.
As someone who has suffered from a deep depression, it hurt to see what you wrote about it. It is very real. It is soul crushing and heartbreaking.
It is time to stop analyzing and start living. It is time to stop making excuses and to realize that you cant keept going like you have been. It isnt getting you anywhere. Enjoy your children. Find things that fill you up. Leave her to her choices and make yours.
Let it go, Matt. Accept what is and move forward in your life.
Matt, I think you have a lot of things to look at. I hope and pray that you do.
Consider this..... Change is not easy, it takes a lot of work. The hardest thing to do is to be really honest with yourself.
I would also just say that sometimes we cannot see things in ourselves that others can. Imo, as long as you are doing your best and NOT shying away from the real tough stuff... that is all you can ask.
I do not post often...but I still read and watch quite a few of you. That said... read what others are posting in an objective manner. You may find that people are just trying to help (based on how they see things)...and sometimes we can misintrept things.
One other thought ...... in my experience and ftr, I am not a therapist, if you are always defending something - then you do not believe it.
God Bless
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
Whoa! A lot happening in this thread. We need to slow down and step back a bit here.
I was pretty much absent due to the "insanity purge" by the DB It contractors that froze out everyone for several days and then dealing with a bunch of stuff IRL.
Seeing some of your recent posts makes me want to present some thoughts and insights from the other side of the coin as a former MLCer. This is tough stuff...indeed!
A few comments first.
Originally Posted By: Matt
I'm tired of having to be the one who has to be there for my D14 when she is with me and also when she is with her mother. I'm tired of having to take my time and energy and devote it to fighting for what any rational person would see as reasonable for me to get after so many years of working so hard, of taking care of someone who was "sick", of being the sole "bread winner" for most of our M, especially since I wasn't the one who ended the M.
Whaa? What??!! Did you just say that you're tired of being the sane parent for D14??! What choice do you have here, Matt? Isn't what you are really fighting for, right?
-What is rational? -What is reasonable?
Who gets to define them here, Matt?
Originally Posted By: Matt
I see my W looking like she hasn't slept, being way too thin and gaunt. Every time I have seen her even when she was out with her relatives early after she left and she was still inviting me to family events, I never see her smile. How is it she still thinks I'm the cause of her unhappiness? She sure doesn't look any happier than before she left! I don't want her to see this so she changes her mind about our M. I really believe that boat has sailed. I would just like for her to maybe see this so that we could maybe be able to actually co-parent our D's in a way that is healthy and where we could maybe work together for their good at least.
Why is it so IMPORTANT to you that W see this? See through which filter? See what? It seems to me that you want W to behave a certain way that gets your "approval." Your approval for what reason/purpose?
Originally Posted By: Matt
Yes, I deserve the 2x4's. Yes, this is stuff I've been through before but now I have to go see my lawyer and take time off work and out of my life. I have to answer her demands from her lawyer.
There's a reason for v between parties. And I am sure you have your own "demands" too. It is a matter of perspective. John has his "demands" and Jane has her "demands." Does that mean that John's "demands" are more important than Jane's??
It's not all cotton candy and popsicles for sure!
Originally Posted By: Matt
And at the same time I can't trust my W, even when she seems to be being reasonable.
'Reasonable' by what kind of standard? Who gets to define reasonable? She is probably thinking that you're not being reasonable either!
Originally Posted By: Matt
Not only doesn't it make sense, it goes against the law. I do get that what you are saying is that this is the way she see's things, I just don't think any "rational" person would. (And I know she's not rational but isn't her lawyer at least rational enough to tell her that she is out of line?)
Lawyers are EMPLOYEES of their clients irrespective of their private thoughts. S/he can think that you are an obnoxious jerk and think you're way off base about a lot of things, but following your 'orders.' They get paid to do this. This has absolutely nothing to do with the lawyers being "rational."
Originally Posted By: Matt
I guess what it boils down to is I don't want to be a victim. If I let her have her way like this I will be. I will have NOTHING to show for the last 20 years of work and sacrifice (except a good relationship with my Daughters). It just sticks in my crawl when she complains about how hard it is. I had to keep everything going while I was the only one working and making a lot less than she is now. Not only that I had just as many bills AND two kids in private school. She never understood how hard that was and now that she is on her own she is feeling the same stress I felt for 15 years, half of that time with her so "depressed" she didn't help out much at all in any way. I'm really losing any feelings of concern or empathy towards my W seeing what she is pushing in the D settlement.
Sounds like someone is harboring a lot of resentment here and keeping a long scorecard against W. Hmmmmmmm...how's that helping you get unstuck and moving forward, Matt?
You lose empathy for W when she presses onward for D. Because you don't want a D. Hmmmmm...
Yet you show some empathy when W shows up gaunt, tired, exhausted and wan. Her father is dying of cancer. Because you see a fellow human being in pain.
Then you might want to develop some global empathy for W overall...not cherry picking times when and how to show empathy. By showing a global, generalized empathy for W will help you get out of the "victim mentality" faster.
Originally Posted By: Matt
I, for one, plan on making a better life away from a depressive S who thinks throwing away the last 26 years is the key to a life of happiness and "joy".
Oh my! You make it sound as if W is doing this with malicious intent. She's not doing this on "purpose" just to get back at you or hurt you. She is RUNNING AWAY because the pressure is TOO MUCH to handle.
Didja know that I did contemplate moving out of my marital house and renting an apartment? That was how stressed I felt and my coping mechanisms broke down imperceptibly over time. On top of this is the fact that her father is dying. Whatever his past transgressions, he is still her father. This very stress is EXACTLY what your W is going through and it is starting to manifest outwardly by her gaunt appearance.
Have some empathy...please. 'K??
Now on to the MCLer perspective. (yeah...held off right to the end just to annoy you, Matt! Nah..just kidding)
As usual, whenever I pop by so much has happened! I noted that one of my replies to you disappeared & I was unable to post at the time. Apparently, there were some technical problems not too long ago as some members wrote about.
As a newbie, I am not in a postion to give you sound advice - I can only offer support . However, I am happy to read that you are moving on with what you can for yourself and Ds. This has been such a long haul - the duration of your M, the issues (W depression & MLC), trying with Ds 'within the MLC dynamic' of which you are part (with no experience like the rest of us!!! ). All this as well as recent financial woes to add to the sitch. There has been frustration & anger as it is all so hurtful. It has been too long for you.
We all come from diverse backgrounds and experiences. Different families and impressions along the way - good, bad, 'eventful' ... traumatic ... all shaping us re: socialization (many events are coming back to me during this experience - & I will admit, I don't feel as though I have the confidence to deal w, but MUST try ). This level of diversity translates vastly different for each & everyone of us. Find your translation. You know yourself better than anyone - HOW YOU FEEL, who you are - make this work for you. Many replies/posts offer direction and advice. Pull from it what you can for YOU, apply to your unique 'profile' and then 'begin' ...
I will be thinking of you and you set off on this new part of your life after all you have been through. The uncertainty of this new life - one not anticipated or planned for, but one handed to you, yet another (!!) LBS, through fate & one that must be taken. It's a hell of a thing!
I am attending a nice event this weekend, my $$ is steadily declining. This is depressing at times. I hope that something works out for me soon/$ but I am going anyway!! I intend to have a GOOD time . I intend to input as much as possible until I FORGET much of what I recall too much. There has been too much 'output' with the stress of this experience. I need to 'put back into myself' - and so do YOU. Plan a nice Holiday Season w/your Ds - but 'protect yourself', think that anything can happen. Don't let W surprise you, insulate yourself moving forward by planning carefully. Above all, think about how beautiful your Ds are as you look to your future with them.
I look forward to reading your vents, 'repeated' or not, as it is my understanding that we can journal our thoughts anyway.
Take care ((( Matt ))) pb
ps wow! a few replies turned up since I started this! (hope it makes sense) anyway, point it, we care 'far ya!!'
Last edited by pbetra; 09/26/1402:36 AM. Reason: always typos
pbetra ---- M: 15 yrs (in 2014) BD: 6/03/2014 Infidelity ('known' from July 2014) Denied PA Feb 2015 2 leave Mar 2015 (left early Summer). Some contact. Back briefly 2017 (after family death) Separated 2017
Nah..just kidding)
. However, I am happy to read that you are moving on 
). 
. I intend to