still holding on - 4

[MrBond]

" It tends to go toward "see you will never get over this. "

When she throws this back at you, hold your hand up and stop her. Tell her that you are not her and that this is your way of processing what happened. That you have a right to your feelings and that she broke the trust the two of you had ... not you. Tell her that if she doesn't understand what an A does to a LBS, she can read "After the Affair" or another book but she needs to respect your decision to deal with it in this manner. This is your way of "getting over" the situation.

She says that to minimize her role and not confront the hurt she caused. It's he defensive mechanism. That HER affair is somehow YOUR problem that you can't get over.

[u-turn]

I usually have responded to this with "you do not know what I am capable of". I wish these conversations lasted longer at that time - she has tended to stomp off childishly. Hopefully she is in a better place to actually hear me and respond in some way.

She also has deferred things by saying "you have no idea what I've been going through for the last several months". I have responded with "you're right, I don't know, but I'm sure it has been stressful on you too".

I haven't offered any articles or books to her - I thought that would be touting myself as some kind of expert (clearly I'm not) or pushing her to see my point of view or guilt her (I don't want to do this). I also don't know what kind of reading she has done or advice she has received.

[MrBond]

"I usually have responded to this with "you do not know what I am capable of"."

That's not the same as what I suggested. The words you stated sound weak as if you have something to prove to her. My words state a FACT and you don't care if she believes it or not.

[PeterV2]

Well, U-turn, I can certainly empathize with your doubts. I too often feel like W is just playing me, setting me up, and keeping the OM in her back pocket until her plan is fully executed. But then she says things that seem genuine, like wanting me to come over and talk.
Things have improved in your sitch, as they have in mine. You could support her in going for that job change that would separate her from working with the OM. That's a step in the right direction.
If she wants to spend time with you, oblige. Is one of her LLs Quality Time? If so then meet that need. But don't wear your heart on your sleeve. Don't try to take the temperature of your relationship. Try to keep R talk to a minimum. Talk about other stuff: your business, the kids' schooling, her job, and some fun stuff, like vacation destinations, sports, etc. Just keep it light.
My W said to me the other day, "A few months ago I was convinced I would never like you again, but now I do like you." That's a breakthrough as far a I can see. She never believed that people fall in and out of love in marriages. But now there's a crack in her skepticism. I try to spend as much time as possible with her. In fact, in His Needs Her Needs, it says if you spend 15 hours a week of quality time together it is inevitable that you'll fall in love with each other. Time. That's what's needed.
But be careful that the time spent is positive and love-producing.

Don't ask about OM. You were asking how As fizzle. I don't quite know, but I think my W's A is over. She still won't share her phone with me but that could do more with her asserting her independence than hiding a secret A. When she was involved, I just knew - by the way she acted and talked and lied. But now she's not so defensive or anxious. Her A lasted about 15 months from EA through to PA to realizing that that R is fraught with just as many problems potentially. So I think it died a fairly natural death, although I think my speech that I will not talk about our R until the A is over helped precipitate its demise (thanks to Sandi's advice).
I seems your W is coming out of the woods. Remember that although the A may be over, she may still have some feelings for the OM and that will come and go in waves. Be patient with her as she grieve the loss of that friendship. I know that's a hard row to hoe but if you can be strong and positive (PMA) and spend a lot of time with her then you're working a winning formula.

The way I looked at it, the more time I spent with her, the less time she spent with the OM. So while I was filling her love bucket, he was treading water. More time = more love. It took a while but I think it worked.

I'm still not out of the woods yet, but each day provides more opportunity to keep filling the love bucket. It was bone dry 6 months ago. It may take another year to fill. Patience and staying the course is the only way. And trying not to backslide.

When she says "you have no idea what I've been going through" your could say, "no I really don't, but would you like to share that with me?" Then listen, empathize. Don't judge. If she opens up do nothing to thwart her. I may be very difficult and agonizing but if you can be her friend and just listen and validate her pain then you're further ahead.

You could also ask her if she wants to join you to see a MC. I would go first myself just to give the MC the back story. Then ask your W to come if she wants. But find a good SBT MC. It may be money well spent.

All in all, U-turn, I think you're doing great. I know it's a rollercoaster. Keep working on your self-awareness and self-improvement. Let her lead the way and set the pace. That way she'll feel like you're on her team. Don't pursue. Let her. But also don't deny her. Work with her at her pace.

[u-turn]

Thanks MrBond

That's not the same as what I suggested. The words you stated sound weak as if you have something to prove to her. My words state a FACT and you don't care if she believes it or not.

I wasn't saying that they were the same. This is how I have addressed it in the past and I know that has been ineffective. It only addresses her assumptions of me and not stating what I want to work through this.

Your suggestion does state what I want - I have avoided saying much about what I want and need.

She is asking for more from me - for me to open up, so your suggestion really does help with that. I have become used to her not staying long to listen or responding to what I have said. Nor do I expect her to and am not really affected by that any more.

I usually keep my part of any conversation like this very short and to the point so I have the time to say what I want to. In many cases it is too abbreviated and doesn't actually get to the real point. Again, I am hoping she gets to a point where we can actually have a 2 way conversation that is not about her work only.

Thank you.

[u-turn]

Thank you Peter!


You could support her in going for that job change that would separate her from working with the OM. That's a step in the right direction.

I have definitely supported this job change - it may be a long process, but I am encouraged by it being out there. I don't think it is, in her mind, to remove herself from the OM, but maybe it is part of it. I'm sure she knows what I am thinking though.

I seems your W is coming out of the woods. Remember that although the A may be over, she may still have some feelings for the OM and that will come and go in waves. Be patient with her as she grieve the loss of that friendship.

I have not approached the subject of handing over the phones and e-mail. I do believe that she will think that is a power move against her independence too. I also don't think it will be completely valuable either (more symbolic than anything - anything can still be hidden and it's been mostly from her work phones and accounts).I do worry that she will have no intention to end the friendship even if the affair has ended. She would really have to know how this friendship is working against us and maybe always will. I don't know how I handle this.

It seems impossible for her to imagine if all of these roles were reversed and we all wore each other's shoes. That drives my compassion right now, but I don't think she can see what she has done.

I do feel like I am giving her what she is asking for right now. I don't know if she is asking for it for her or for me. But things are changing. I've asked for movement and I seem to be getting it, I wonder if I am always going to be doubtful.

Thanks for spending time with me Peter. I value your input.

[Old Dog]

Great post PeterV2. Very inspirational.

His Needs Her Needs. That's another book I'll have to get now.

[MrBond]

"She is asking for more from me - for me to open up, so your suggestion really does help with that."

Tell her that if she keeps shutting you down by saying "you will never get over this" she is showing you that you can't be honest and open with her which she keeps asking you to be.

[u-turn]

She hasn't shut me down this way since asking me to open up, but we haven't had the opportunity to talk much either. I hope it will go differently and she can actually hear me being open and honest.

And of course I would want the same from her, but I know I can't expect it.

She is avoiding conversations again (except about her work). I try to let her take the lead initiating conversations, which means it almost never happens (except about her work). It's confusing when she says wants to talk about things and then later in the day she doesn't even acknowledge it - the moment just goes away.

Though now I do feel like I've been given an invitation. I just don't want to get too heavy too fast and scare her off. I wouldn't mind the friction a good discovery conversation (current status of each of us) may bring, but I want it to be productive.

Or I ignore the whole thing and back to patience.

I feel good about being able to see all of this now and not just react to emotions.

Thanks!

[PeterV2]

I hear you, U-turn. It's tempting just to open it up and say what you think and deal with the backlash as it happens.

In fact I've even done that a few times and it has gotten pretty intense. Afterwards I've admitted that I don't really care that much for conflict, and my W says it's sometimes necessary to resolve issues and deal with problems head on.

Sometimes it has lead to an improvement in my sitch and other times it lead to a degradation. I've done post-game analysis and figured out that if I don't validate her emotions during the fray then the results are inevitably negative. I have to be careful though, as she's said, don't patronize me with phrases such as "I can see how that can be difficult", etc.

She's very intelligent, quick and aware and when we have heated discussions I'm often at a loss for quick logical comebacks. Of course two hours later I say to myself "I should have said..."

Like you say, a good discovery convo could be fruitful, but I think proper preparation would help, i.e. knowing what territory you will stay away from (OM, A, etc.) and having some well thought out position statements, like about boundaries. And also gleaning your skills at reflective conversation so it doesn't degrade into a verbal cage match.

Throughout it all though you'll have to be disciplined enough to remain detached and be vigilant that your emotions don't suddenly overtake you and stick your foot in your mouth.

I really need to read and heed my own advice. I would do better if I did.