So Joe, I'm very confused. What happened to the crazed woman who was constantly verbally abusive, threatening and beating doors down to get to you? I had to go back to read your old thread and make sure this was the same Joe.
What gives?
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
When she gets mad, she gets mad. Especially when I act like a jack@$$.
Things are calm if not good. She'll talk about future things that may include me. Still no talk of reconciling yet and she hasn't been super warm to me at all, but the ice may be melting.
This part is making me nutty, but I have to be patient and let her lead to some extent. If she keeps warming up but won't initiate R talk, I'll probably ask her on a date. See if I can drum up something more fun than just dinner. But that's at least a week out.
Hanging in.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
So you're OK with that behavior when she gets mad? It didn't seem that way at the start of this. Was what you described earlier out of the ordinary for her?
Really, I'm confused.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
The extreme anger, w/ attacking the door and throwing things? Yes, those are out of the ordinary. She does have a lot of anger in general and that is something I'd like her to work on. That will have to be something we talk about when/if we start piecing things together.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Usually I stay out of people’s business--but I know Joe is going to have a rough patch in the next few days. When that happens he is going to latch on to labug like you are a life raft.
Joe is going to say his wife is a crazed woman and she is verbally abusive and he was engaging in wishful thinking when he thought they could reunite.
So here is my question:
What the heck labug?
Why are you stirring the pot with Joe? What’s in it for you? You got a beef with him? You don’t want him to reconcile with his wife?
What’s up?
Let me give you my perspective.
Joe and his wife hit a rough patch in their marriage. When this happened Joe and his wife stopped being companions and started being adversaries.
His wife stopped being kind. So Joe stopped being kind. His wife started being combative so Joe started being combative. His wife started being aggressive. So Joe became aggressive. His wife started becoming verbally abusive…
And they kept escalating their bad behavior until they couldn’t stand each other anymore and Joe moved out.
Joe’s life turned into a nightmare that he couldn’t wake up from. He couldn’t do anything right because he didn’t know where the starting point was anymore. He wanted to make sense of his life. Why was this happening to him?
He wanted to blame her.
So he painted his wife in the most unflattering way possible on this chat board—because that is what you do on chat boards. Joe is not going to get on a chat board—while his life is spilling downhill and tell us how awesome his wife is and “Gosh, golly, me and the little woman are going to get a soda at the malt shop after this little spat blows over.”
I think most of us know Joe was venting about his wife.
Just like most of us know Joe is remembering all the wonderful things that he loves about his wife.
Which brings me back to you, labug.
Why are you making Joe defend the terrible things he said about his wife?
The only people I know who do that are people who stir the pot.
Bob, thanks for looking out for me, however, I think that's actually what labug is doing too. I think she just wants me to keep my eyes open and not have this go down an abusive and dangerous track.
I thank you both. I know I've got some rough patches ahead. My W has made that clear. **mind-reading alert: I think she actually does want to reconcile but is really smarting about the idiotic EA I got into after she dropped the bomb. **
She did say, for the first time tonight, "I don't know what I want. I have a lot to get over."
Biggest current issue S5 starts kindergarten soon at the same school as OW's son. My W is really not cool w/ that. I'm actually not either. Our other option is private school, but we should have made that call 3 months ago and saved some $$ by not paying to hold his daycare spot. Ugh. I've got to find a fix for this.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Sadly, I think this would be in a really good place right now if I hadn't been stupid enough to get into an EA. She's smarting from that and it's infinitely complicated by the fact that our kids will be starting kindergarten at the same school in less than a month.
My best option is to get him enrolled in the private school he did 4K at last year. We didn't save any money this summer by pulling him from daycare, which we would have done if we'd decided on this school earlier.
That leaves me to asking my parents for money. I just got a huge chunk from them for her bday present. She's not a huge fan of being so reliant on my family, so it's a tight rope walk right now.
I do know that if I want a prayer of saving my M, I can't have my kid at school w/ the OW's kid. If my W sees her at a school event, it'll be a fight, every time. Well, not a fight because I won't even try to defend that idiocy on my part, but it'll be a bad day.
I've come to realize, I may need to take a second job this year, I need to shift the finances of my family. Not sure what that'll be.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Usually I stay out of people’s business--but I know Joe is going to have a rough patch in the next few days. When that happens he is going to latch on to labug like you are a life raft.
Joe is going to say his wife is a crazed woman and she is verbally abusive and he was engaging in wishful thinking when he thought they could reunite.
So here is my question:
What the heck labug?
Why are you stirring the pot with Joe? What’s in it for you? You got a beef with him? You don’t want him to reconcile with his wife?
What’s up? Though LaBug hardly needs me speaking for her, I would like to address some of your questions and comments Bob.
She's using a form of the Socratic method of "self discovery" and self learning --she often does, and with wonderful results---so that by her asking Joe the harder questions, HE can look inside and see how HE frames things that do not help his situation.
It's a common method of teaching and of therapy.
Let me give you my perspective.
Joe and his wife hit a rough patch in their marriage. When this happened Joe and his wife stopped being companions and started being adversaries.
His wife stopped being kind. So Joe stopped being kind. His wife started being combative so Joe started being combative. His wife started being aggressive. So Joe became aggressive. His wife started becoming verbally abusive…
And they kept escalating their bad behavior until they couldn’t stand each other anymore and Joe moved out. While you have the right to your perspective, of course, I must say that ^^ is not how I saw Joe's marriage or his story here.
I saw & heard Joe pretty much admit to being a mediocre h, who so deeply frustrated his wife, and over such a long period of time, that she "went batchit crazy" on him...
and that is IF we are to believe his descriptions and IF we assume he left nothing out about his own role or his own behavior.
Most posters who describe such extremes, not all but most, omit important facts or give them out in a piece meal fashion. Sometimes they lie by omission, but later report never hearing those terms ("lying by omission") til getting here and being called out on it.
It can be painful to watch or experience but it DOES help to "Force" some more in-depth self searching and genuine growth.
Joe’s life turned into a nightmare that he couldn’t wake up from. He couldn’t do anything right because he didn’t know where the starting point was anymore. He wanted to make sense of his life. Why was this happening to him?
He wanted to blame her.
So he painted his wife in the most unflattering way possible on this chat board—because that is what you do on chat boards.
I strongly disagree. At first when I posted here, I wanted a simple "instruction manual" on how to change my h back into who he once was or who I thought he once was.
Then I got healthier and my DB coach helped me realize I only controlled ME and that meant, that when I posted here, I began to want to know what I could do to work on ME and that is sure as heck why I stayed and kept posting here.
In TIME, I learned that all I could do was work on ME and so I posted more and more honestly and in full, here on these chat boards.
Often we paint our spouses to be better than they are b/c we are mortified we may have married real jerks. A lot of times we paint ourselves as better, OR worse, than reality b/c either that is how we feel on a given day, and or b/c we want permission to quit--- or be a doormat --- or we have some agenda that colors our descriptions.
FWIW, Venting is only helpful if one feels BETTER afterwards and in some way learns.
When I see someone here who is bashing the heck out of their spouse, I first look to see how new their situation is-- b/c a total newbie is NOT ready to hear that they have no control over their spouse, and that they have to look within for the only person they may be able to change.
They are often reeling and our concern then, is to get them thru the hellish first weeks til they can see straight. Then we start on the "real" DB work.
But re venting...IMO, more often than not, venting keeps us spiraling in negativity and keeps us stuck in our victimhood. It's usually NOT productive.
The folks who mostly paint their spouses badly and inaccurately, usually get "caught" and then - IF ALL GOES WELL,--this is "revealed to them" by using Bug's techniques here.
Then we can hope their perspective starts to get a bit more fair and more realistic and they might just end the blame game. OR at least take on more responsibility for their choices.
Joe is not going to get on a chat board—while his life is spilling downhill and tell us how awesome his wife is and “Gosh, golly, me and the little woman are going to get a soda at the malt shop after this little spat blows over.”
I think most of us know Joe was venting about his wife.
Just like most of us know Joe is remembering all the wonderful things that he loves about his wife.
Which brings me back to you, labug. Why are you making Joe [b]defend the terrible things he said about his wife?
The only people I know who do that are people who stir the pot.[/b]
IMO, you have misread & misinterpreted her words and misjudged her intent. And that's unfortunate for all, b/c Labug is a huge resource here.
She is what's referred to as an "expert vet" who has dug very deeply inside and made huge internal changes in herself AND her marriage is being restored as we speak. She's a success story.
I wish you had politely asked her what she meant, rather than telling her she's "just stirring the pot" and "making Joe defend terrible things he said".
I don't think that is at all what was trying to achieve. As for "what's in it for" her, I'd say nothing. She gives this board her time, for free. As for whether she has a "beef with him", I can say with almost 100% certainty that she does NOT.
As for whether she wants him to reconcile with his wife, my assumption is based on knowing her and reading her posts here for a few Years now, and I'd say her first goal is the same as mine here. Helping the person improve a marriage IF it's the type of marriage that can ever be healthy (in some cases, like with actual physical abuse, most of us will NOT say "go home and cope better". Most of us will say to get some professional help asap.)
DB is more about saving yourself and THEN hopefully saving your marriage.
You may not have been here long enough to know what we mean, but when a person's ego is so crushed from a toxic marriage, then that has to be addressed BEFORE we can support any type of reconciliation with the person who is doing the damage.
IF Joe's wife really is as physically abusive as he said and if this is typical at all for her, heck yes that would need some intervention.
((Imagine if Joe were "Josephine" and his wife were the husband, breaking down a door to get to her...
and just so you know, we've seen assaults on this board, and at least 2 suicides...so we take violent behavior seriously, but we also take mood swings and distorted perspectives seriously too.)))
I THINK, that La Bug wanted Joe to see how badly his negative views on things create more problems, and how unproductive such a poor self image, coupled with a victim based "woe is me" attitude, can be. UNLESS it was all true and accurate and in that case, we cannot sweep that under the rug.
HIS ATTITUDE changes daily, true. But Joe seems surprised that he can get better results when he's not bashing and blaming and assuming the worst. That is a lesson. It's NOT asking him to "defend" his comments [b]at all. [/b] I guess you'd have preferred she spell this all out to him, but a lot of us think it's much better learned when it's self discovered. Some can, some can't. But so you know,
it is asking him to SEE how his words and perspectives - change OUTCOMES...
AND OR
her questions could serve to remind him of what he wants to so quickly forget...at his peril - and at the risk it may pose to his children, (Ie her violent outbursts).
I hope you hear me on this Bob, b/c to me it sounded as if you just insulted a woman who deserves better, and who has so much to offer...
based on your misinterpretation of her posts & intent.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Sadly, I think this would be in a really good place right now if I hadn't been stupid enough to get into an EA. She's smarting from that and it's infinitely complicated by the fact that our kids will be starting kindergarten at the same school in less than a month. My best option is to get him enrolled in the private school he did 4K at last year. We didn't save any money this summer by pulling him from daycare, which we would have done if we'd decided on this school earlier.
That leaves me to asking my parents for money. I just got a huge chunk from them for her bday present. She's not a huge fan of being so reliant on my family, so it's a tight rope walk right now.
I do know that if I want a prayer of saving my M, I can't have my kid at school w/ the OW's kid. If my W sees her at a school event, it'll be a fight, every time. Well, not a fight because I won't even try to defend that idiocy on my part, but it'll be a bad day.
I've come to realize, I may need to take a second job this year, I need to shift the finances of my family. Not sure what that'll be.
A lot of families have at least one parent with an extra job. We do what we have to do. But to be clear, are you saying the school your son would be at, costs $4k or what? Why can't he go to public school there? I read an article recently that said "barring the unusual" (meaning the schools at the END of the spectrum, like the bottom 10-20%) statistic, most kids can do fine in a "good high school" no matter where they attended elementary school. That's b/c except for the bottom fifth, almost every elementary school will teach your child how to read and write and do some basic arithmetic AND most parents can help compensate for any problems b/c most of us can handle that level math and reading, etc. (I know once 8th grade hits, no one can ask ME for math help).
And why "must" you or your w run into OW? What if anything does her child know? And have you told OW that it's over, in a way your wife knows about?
Have you reassured your w of your fidelity in a way that she believes (even though I'm sure it still hurts her), have you at least gotten your w to see that it's NOT a likely repeat?
As for second jobs, would you tutoring be helpful? They charge $25-50 per hour around here, and you can mostly pick your own hours. Same for SAT prep tutoring work, which Kaplan, Princeton Review and others teach. (Our d17 is taking an SAT prep class now and we paid $1100!! She better do well on it!)
Just some ideas.
ALSO I'm glad the gift idea went over well. I think a 2nd job makes more sense than borrowing more from your parents unless you believe a raise is coming your way soon. Otherwise you are not changing the financial planning, just borrowing more.
I mean, is there something you can sell or something you can DO, or that you are expecting, so that you can most likely get out of debt and get onto the "saving something for FUN" plan?
The "funnest" savings we ever did was with a trip to Europe in mind. Every time we tossed in a $20 bill or more, we'd feel like we were slowly but truly doing it. It did NOT "hurt" at all, you know?
The saving and the planning were FUN, I swear.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
