For better or for worse, for richer or for PORES?

[Shining]

Thank you, daring, I have been reading your thread, too .

For anyone who has been here or knows others who have, I am wondering about the different schools of thought regarding ow discussion.


Ever since May, I have not brought topic of ow into any conversation. I pretty much removed her from my brain like a tumor. Ow is irrelevant. Unless......H wants to get sexy.

So, because have been told she is there everyday, but she isn't discussed between me and H, do I continue to act "as if" she doesn't exist and that I don't know anything?

IF H DOES TRY TO GET SEXY....then what?

Do I decline and just say we need to take things slowly, which could be taken as a rejection of him since he's soooooo sensitive?

Or, am I better off asking if ow is in the picture, then he may lie, then I know he's lying and that's not good either.

Or, do I tell H I know she's still in picture because of people who have told me...then he gets paranoid and wonders who all is telling me stuff and that's not good either.

Open for thoughts?

[AJM]

What's your gut say?
Personally? I think you should let him bring it up, if you can. Let the moment stand on its own without her in it, if you can manage.

AJ

[BrightFuture]

I am becoming the OW to the OW.

I love this!

I would act as if OW didn’t exist. Unless he tries to be intimate. I don’t have any solid advice on this. I would not know what to do myself. Maybe tell him that you are not ready this time, but kind of let him know that you might be open to it. See what he does. Will it give him some motivation to continue to pursue you? I’m so excited to read your updates.

[ForeverYoung]

He said I still "do it for him"...and he struggles to keep cool every time he sees me. That yesterday was especially hard and he didn't want to leave (the restaurant). He said it was all he could do not to kiss me. Then he said, "you still have the power". Strange comment I thought.... He feels I have power?

It doesn't seem strange to me at all. H is still (very!) turned on by you, so you do have much power.

My manly advice: Keep flirting but don't give in to his advances when he wants to take it farther. Not only because you don't want to be baking him any cakes, but because it will make him want you even more.

I envy the ladies here who have H's that are still hot for them. Not all the ladies are as fortunate. And it seems NONE of the H's here have W's in crisis that still fancy them in a physical way.

Just pay close attention and use your "power" accordingly.

[uRworthy]

Shining, you are a quick study....

Nice job with your get together.

So, just a couple of things, if I may. I believe in this process. The things that I always felt were most important were to take what you want from it and leave the rest and do what works.

Dbing isn't a one size fits all simply because different people, situations, and circumstances are involved.

So, the basic feeling is not to acknowledge the ow. That gives her importance she doesn't deserve. She is really a symptom and a bandaid and matters not in the grand scheme of things.

I would absolutely take this really, really slowly and think you should tell him that.

While this latest development is real positive, he is testing the waters. Trying to see if the changes are real. Trying to see if it could really work. He will be looking very closely.

If he thinks he sees anything at all that he isn't sure of, he can get spooked. I am keeping it real with you because I can see that's how you prefer it.

You have to continue to let him lead.

And yes, you do have power in this. Not necessarily the one he is talking about, although that can be true. The power you have is the ability to control you and who you are becoming.

Be real careful not to put any pressure here, S. He is nowhere near coming out of this.

Your job is to continue to work on you. But there isn't any reason you shouldn't also show him the possibilities, you know?

That's what my dear friend, Raine, was able to do.

[Raine]

I have got to believe that for most of the people who come back from an affair, whatever the reason or circumstance was, that they are not going to fully drop the rope to the OW until they know for sure that they have a tight grasp on the LBS, or more importantly, that the LBS has a tight grasp on them. I think my H dropping that rope to the OW before having any kind of guarantee with me is rare. For him the possibility of losing what little tie he still had left to me was enough to drop the other ropes.

Now saying all this, when he and I started to reconnect, we didn't talk about anything. He couldn't handle that and I'm sure it would be quite overwhelming for someone in his fragile state to be put into relationship talks and demands, to be interrogated, to have to face everything he has done and the pain he has caused.

I had a boundary of no ow if he was going to stay in the house. When we started being intimate, I would hand him a condom or ask him to grab one. There wasn't a discussion about it. This went on for several months. It was 2.5 months after we were intimate before he started being verbal about anything relationship wise. About a month later, at my request, he got the full std workup. I never denied him or rejected him, but I protected myself. Nothing was ever accusatory or negative. Just matter of fact. I did have to push him on getting the tests. There are somethings that you can't give to them on their timeline. When it involves your health and safety or that of the kids, there is a line, but you can do it without making a big deal about it or over explaining yourself. He knew why. I didn't need to ask or tell.

I believe that they have to feel safe. That you can actually accept them and love them and forgive them. That they're not going to have to pay for their sins the rest of their life, although my H has said over and over again that he will and he deserves to. What is most important to me right now is helping him get to the place where he can forgive himself. I know he has to do that, but I will be there for any support he needs.

So in this long wind to answer your question, know what your limits and boundaries are now, and stick to them. Stick to them without discussion. Just enjoy it, without expectations or demands. Men work backwards from women. The physical comes first. He will get to the emotional later, on his timeline. Which is likely why you don't see men on here with wives who are "hot for them." It doesn't work that way for women. They will reconnection emotionally first. My H admits he was very attracted to and "hot" for me all through this, but that I was not obtainable and he thought that I deserved better.

[Mighty]

My H admits he was very attracted to and "hot" for me all through this, but that I was not obtainable and he thought that I deserved better.

Very interesting, Raine. I'm curious about the above quote from you. Did your h ever let on that he was "hot" for you? Many LBS's are told that it's no longer there, you know, the ILYBNILWY... (or in my case- IDLY), and that they aren't attracted to lbs anymore... yadda, yadda...

I just find it interesting that he was always checking you out. As they say, the MLCer is watching the lbs, even when lbs does not know it.

[Shining]

SO, SINCE "THE HUG FELT 'ROUND THE WORLD"....

Then the flip-flopping Wednesday about how and when to see me for a kiss....but can't Wednesday, so how about Thursday at 5:00?

There is a LOT to update..... Nothing that is real reconnecting, because it's still so early and, well, duh, this is MLC so we have a while, BUT....some VERY INSIGHTFUL STUFF. Also bizarre, flirty, alien but nice alien, and some just plain wtf.

To be clear, for anyone reading this positive stuff that is happening recently, let me preface this again by saying:
1. We are still S, H not even close to being out of tunnel, so I am no expert and can only give my experience which has yet to be proven successful. Although I already feel successful in my terms for how far I've come in who I am. Regardless .
2. This could all turn bad tomorrow, and it could be over and done. So as every other day, today stands on it's own.
3. But, great things are going on that I didn't expect, and it feels awesome just to have his attention again. If only for today.
4, 5, 6-1000000. He's very into me.... (Happy dance)

He is TESTING ME BIG TIME. I was always a good test taker, so let's see how this works out.

SO, WHAT DOES HE DO, YOU ASK?
Texting all day Wednesday during work.....
He reaches out and asks questions, then apologizes saying he doesn't have the right to ask. Just small stuff, too...like how's work, or where did you go for dinner...THEN....He's text-talking flirty and dirty, which we used to do all the time when we were in our own first- "infatuation" stage.

We kept texting all evening Wednesday...a lot. I know ow was there at the house. It's fun to imagine how it must have driven her nuts to see him texting ME so much! This will no doubt make her more needy and insecure.

Remember, we had planned to meet Thursday at 5:00..for the kiss...

Then at 8:30....he sends this:

H:Are you busy?

M:No. You?

H:I was wondering if maybe you want to come over and hug?

W:I would love to.

H:About 915? (Gives him time to make her leave)

M:I'm not dressy... But I'm hug-appropriate.

H:No worries. Me either

I got there, and first, the dog was really happy and going crazy to see me. Then H told dog to go on, and he gave me a wonderful hug. And a kiss..... I love that he kissed me. Not to pi$$ on anyone's picnic about this moment, tho, because I have prayed for months for it and I am nothing but grateful. But for anyone wondering, yeah, it was not the same as kissing my real H. Not sensual. Not bad in any way. Just.....hmmmm... Mechanical? I still enjoyed it and didn't want to stop. The passion would come much later and I'm happy with exactly this for now.

He walked me through the house, showing me all he has done to prepare for it to be sold. A few weeks ago, I hated hearing all "they" were doing to "my" house. That's different now... More, "indifferent".

My feelings inside? I wasn't super excited to see the house, but I wasn't bitter either. It didn't feel like my house anymore because I truly feel like I have buried that old, dead marriage.

On the outside? I complimented A LOT and mentioned how much work he has done, and how great it looks. I told him I was really impressed. <<<<<180. (H needed that more from me, to feel I admired him).

Lastly, H brought me into our MB....I had dreaded seeing it again, before that night. This was a place that became so tainted after I discovered ow.

Now, this may not make sense to many, because only months ago I, myself, wouldn't have understood. But, it didn't bother me one bit to go in there. Zero. I looked at the bed. My bed. The bed they were on and probably still are....Nothing. No negative feelings. No angry feelings toward either of them. She is irrelevant. I took my power back. I sat on the bed.

HERE'S WHERE IT GETS REALLY GOOD....

Ok, so yeah....we got physical, but didn't ML. H is, hmmmm....behaving very into me and it was hot. It felt good to be wanted, even just physically. I already knew going in, this was not the same H as before, and this meant nothing toward our relationship. But we played a little. I made a point to not linger afterward, because I didn't want the environment to feel as if I expected anything more. I made a friendly, flirty exit.

I was there a total of 45 minutes.

Going into the house that had so many bad memories attached for me before, turned out to be a great exercise in moving on, and detaching.

After I got home, around 10:15, H sends this:

H:I just noticed that I did not shave this morning. I am embarrassed and I am sorry

M:You are sexy. I figured the shaving was a new look. (At 10:30 pm)

H: (At 2:10 am) Lol . I had a great time and want to see you again. This time I will shave!

M: (at 7:00am before work) You were awake at 2:10?

H: I just woke up for a minute (can you say, not sleeping much?)

So that was Wednesday night....

WHAT I DIDN'T DO:
Never, ever, ever, mentioned ow. Not once. Still don't even feel the need to. For me, this isn't a temptation for the sake of discussion, because I can see that trying to have a meaningful discussion with H right now would have the same result as showing a dog a card trick.
Didn't say I love you or anything emotional, but felt it.
Didn't make future plans for any other conversation or meeting.
Didn't talk as much as I used to. Listened.

WHAT I DID DO:
Acted super impressed and gave lots of affirmation
Acted happy and comfortable there, as I could tell H was reading my reactions closely for who knows...guessing possible resentment or something to throw in his face out of bitterness. Gave only positive happy vibes.
Still looked fabulous in shorts and little T:)
Went in glowing as if I felt fabulous, which I do...confidence is sexy to me

MAYBE NOT THE TERM "UN-DB-LIKE"..... LET'S CALL IT "WHAT MY GUT SAID TO DO"
Got physical. I wanted H to remember he wants me like that. I didn't let him ML. But played enough to remind him:)


THURSDAY WAS EVEN BETTER.... MORE SOON:).

Still NIC now on day 12. That stuff really worked!

[Shining]

THEN, THURSDAY:

Expectation: Zero. I figured H would pull back, so went on with my day. Morning text from H was back to business about the house. I still do not initiate contact (yay me).

Then 11:30 H sends a friendly, random, non-business text to me.... "There is a big snake that came out of the bathroom across the street in the other building. They did not catch it and everyone is panicking. LOL"

M:Omg I would be, too!! (Ok, so here we go, warming up, friendly...)

H: I have work to do on the house tonight after work so I won't be ready at 5pm. Light bulbs and wiping down doors and light switches, dusting. air vents. I have to be ready for showings this weekend as early as tomorrow evening! (House has been an excuse for weeks....it's been ready and I just saw it last night...ummmm. Yeah.)

Here's the thing....... it didn't matter what the excuse was. <<<< This is where I can't allow myself to get hung up.

What I heard between the lies, was that H needs time and space. I am DBing for this reason. So I am choosing to not get distracted by the tactics he feels he needs to use, pathetic and lame as they may seem.... This is the only way he is capable right now of communicating that for whatever reason, he isn't comfortable and needs to change the plan. Why would I want him to be uncomfortable? That doesn't help either of us right now. There will be a day that he will have to come to terms with the lies and behaviors. That day is not today.

So my response was: "Would you like help?" I pretty much knew the answer, but maybe not so I asked. Detached from the answer.

H: It's not your job to do but thanks

M: No problem. If you change your mind let me know.

Then after he was off the hook, texts came in rapid-fire! Yep! Flirty and dirty. This went on for hours. Then AGAIN, as if he didn't already cancel the 5:00 kiss date....

H: Idk when I'll be free tonight btw. Having problem with S20

M: Oh? I'm sorry you're having a problem with S20. Is he ok?

H: he will be. Attitude.

(Ok....REALLY???!??!! This was pure comedy. But as I'm watching this, it's becoming more interesting to me the timing and reasons and thoughts that change so quickly....and the fact that 1. H had already canceled but must have forgotten. 2. Since when does a person cancel anything because of an attitude of a 20 year old son? I can't even make this up.). .

M: No worries on my end about tonight. Take care of what you need to. I have plenty I can do:)

THEN after about an hour or so, I'm home from work. H begins rapid fire texting me again. Only THIS time..... Wait for it.... From the tanning bed. No- IN the tanning bed. Yeah. He sent a pic.

Then after a little while, more rapid fire flirty and dirty and again, around 7:30, H asks me to come over at 9:00. ????? What about the house and the son and.... Lol. Who cares. Again, I know ow is there. BUT.... I like that H makes her leave for me. I like knowing she isn't sleeping there for that night, anyway....2 in a row, but who's counting. This is so twisted. And it gets more twisted...

So H is cracking me up, and gets me to come over. I'm excited. I know this isn't a "real" building of our R. But I wanted to see H for several reasons. I also decided I wanted to ML, which would really be just sex. But I brought protection because I really wanted to.

Fully realizing this will likely introduce cake-eating. I'm aware, and I believe in my case, with my detachment level, I'm ok with giving him a bigger taste of cake. I will not allow this long term, tho. BUT I thought about it, and I really wanted to add to his current awareness of me (while it lasts, anyway), and give him more "good" and "positive" to associate with me, and to remember when I'm not there. I'm aware H is comparing. I'm confident about that, for some reason though. If H was sure he was done with me, truly happy in love and satisfied by ow, he wouldn't be having ow leave and wanting me back there. He's not thinking deeply about relationships or anything like that I'm sure. But he's definitely confused about what to do. I know in my gut he doesn't want ow. I believe he doesn't know how to undo this. Patience. It will die in time. He's figuring it out.

So then we (you know) without any mention of ow or anything. When I first took out the c, H said he had been tested and was ok. I said "Good! I'm glad. Here." And with no other discussion about it, he put it on.

Yeah. He misses me. I can tell you that

I can also tell you he's not ready for more. But he's cookin'.

SOOOOOOO this is the weirdest, twisted, I don't even know...
I'm at my house.....but it's not really my house.
I'm in my bed.......but it's not really my bed.
Laying next to my H........but he doesn't want to be my H.
We just (you know) and suddenly hear a sound from outside the MB.....
And we JUMPED like teenagers thinking our parents just came home lol!
Only it was fear of H ADULT KIDS CATCHING US. ...... In bed. Together. Our bed. We are married. In our house. And we're afraid of being caught together.

Wtfffffff???? How is this even a thing that happened.

----------Reflecting--------

THIS IS WHAT IS CHANGING IN ME:
Like my H, I find myself changing thoughts fast, too....I go from finding humor and confusion of his words on the surface, to feeling empathy and sadness for the pain and conflict his brain must be in. This is so complicated. I know he's in there. I'm backing off. I can do this.

Next post (or chapter?) is the big R text talk from Friday.... Very, very telling.

[Raine]

My H admits he was very attracted to and "hot" for me all through this, but that I was not obtainable and he thought that I deserved better.

Very interesting, Raine. I'm curious about the above quote from you. Did your h ever let on that he was "hot" for you? Many LBS's are told that it's no longer there, you know, the ILYBNILWY... (or in my case- IDLY), and that they aren't attracted to lbs anymore... yadda, yadda...

I just find it interesting that he was always checking you out. As they say, the MLCer is watching the lbs, even when lbs does not know it.

No, he didn't say anything like that, and I think a lot of that is more subconscious and in retrospect that he can see it now. He told me very early on, about a month or so into S that I was more beautiful now than I was when he married me. He would tell me I was amazing or talk about how amazing I was to other people, but there was nothing that I would call a flirtation. Even at the start of reconciliation, he never put himself out there like that.

But now that he is open about everything, yes, he will talk about times. We went to a concert together, and outdoor one, just as friends. He had moved back in, but we were only friends. He talks about how amazing I looked that night, how much fun I was. He loved that I was dancing and the dress I wore. He said it brought him an incredible amount of sadness that night, because he loved every moment, and he felt like moments like that were not his anymore.

He talks about how I used to lay in his bed at night and listen to a podcast and talk, again just as friends, but how he would long to just be close to me and hold me, but he would never make a move and risk anything. He was happy just to have that small time with me and what closeness that was, and he was too afraid of offending me and that I wouldn't come back.

So yes I feel like it was always there, but so was the fear of rejection. He didn't care about OW rejection, but he cared about mine. He didn't want me to find out about anything. He says he should have wanted me to, to make things easier to end where he didn't have to do the work, but he was always so afraid of me finding out.

I think he was always attracted to me, but there was for sure a long period of time where he didn't want to be married to me. He says it doesn't make logical sense to him now, but he knows the person he was then felt that way. He knows how he felt and how he justified everything to himself because of how he felt, but he can't explain it now.

And yes, he was always watching me. Always testing me throughout the entire time. Always hanging on everything I did and said. And even now he hangs on everything I say and looks to me and values everything I do and say. Just now he is very open about it.