Sex was great, then we married part 3

[GoatGal]

Ow-Vey! Grey!!!

All this above ^^^^^^.

This is what we mean about missing the point.

I'd write more but I'd be repeating myself.

I think it's like leading a horse to water.

You're only going to drink when you're really, really thirsty.

Your Pal,
---GG

[Grey]

Ow-Vey! Grey!!!

All this above ^^^^^^.

This is what we mean about missing the point.

I'd write more but I'd be repeating myself.

I think it's like leading a horse to water.

You're only going to drink when you're really, really thirsty.

Your Pal,
---GG

Not sure which part.

It's funny, nobody thought to ask. But yes, we had a great weekend. I'm working on me, not asking about sex, I don't know what anyone else wants from me now---it's like no matter what I'm doing it wrong, so I'm going to continue to stick with therapy instead. I don't get it?

[GoatGal]

Grey,

It's the "IF" part.
IF she was physically unable to have the type of sexual relationship you desire, would you stay with her?

You answered "yes". Good answer!

What if it's not a "physical inability"? What if it's just her?
What then?

Again, you're still focused on "helping" her "fix it".
1. You can't fix this for another person.
2. The solution is to change your thinking and perceptions about the problem.
This seems to be where you're getting stuck.

As for "fixing it"...
Who is that for, exactly?

Is she happy with the way things are?

If she is, why should she "fix" anything?

Just food for thought.

--GG

[Grey]

Grey,

It's the "IF" part.
IF she was physically unable to have the type of sexual relationship you desire, would you stay with her?

You answered "yes". Good answer!

What if it's not a "physical inability"? What if it's just her?
What then?

Again, you're still focused on "helping" her "fix it".
1. You can't fix this for another person.
2. The solution is to change your thinking and perceptions about the problem.
This seems to be where you're getting stuck.

As for "fixing it"...
Who is that for, exactly?

Is she happy with the way things are?

If she is, why should she "fix" anything?

Just food for thought.

--GG

I don’t think I’m stuck, even if I was before. I can’t seem to convince anyone of that, so I’m not going to argue about that anymore AND I’m going to continue therapy.

I’m not focused on helping her fix it----I just wouldn’t leave her stranded with ANY health problem. I don’t get it. Don’t put it that way. It’s like I can’t be seen as anything other than a sex maniac and can’t have an honest conversation about it.

For example, if she has migraines, would I be ok with her taking prescription medicine if it took away the pain?

But if she has low libido and a pill can help that, now I’m a jerk for encouraging it? For the record, I haven’t encouraged any pills for her libido, but the point is she’s my PARTNER----no matter what problem she has I’ll help her face it.

And yes, she’s happy with the way things are.

But isn’t the fundamental point of all of Michele’s books I’ve read that spouses have different needs and it’s up to both sides to compromise or face consequences?

So you’re exactly right----why should she “fix” anything for herself? She shouldn’t.

Why should she “fix” anything for her husband? Because of love. It’s the same way I’ve “fixed” things for her, things I was happy not doing, right? I don’t understand the difference except that I changed. Now I’m adapting better to her not “fixing” me not being as happy as she is with our life together (despite both of us, including me, being happy with it), but the shoe is only on one foot, right?

Again, say for example I went blind. I can’t drive. She was happy not driving me everywhere, right? I could get someone else to drive me everywhere, couldn’t I? Why would I want my wife to drive me anywhere, and why might she want to drive me anywhere? I say love. You’re saying I need to love a sexless marriage, or wait until everyone agrees it’s officially sexless, then love it?

Still, I don’t bring it up, I don’t talk to her about it, I don’t pressure her, I don’t take it personally when she’s tired, I meditate, I do all my other stuff including therapy, I work on the art show for September and I have a great time with my wife, including the entire 4th of July weekend. Tonight we’re having guests for dinner and I’m cooking-----lobster, clams and scallops----and I don’t expect (nor did I ever) anything for it.

[MrBond]

I notice you didn't have a counter-point to my previous posts.

"And if she had a problem, wouldn’t it only make sense for me to help her fix it?"

This sums it all up. This is not how people work. It's not your job to help her "fix" what's wrong with her if she doesn't want it or if she doesn't think she's "broken" in the first place.

"But isn’t the fundamental point of all of Michele’s books I’ve read that spouses have different needs and it’s up to both sides to compromise or face consequences? "

No that is not the fundamental point of her books. And besides, I thought you only read SSM. What you're describing is an adult-child relationship.

"Why should she “fix” anything for her husband? Because of love."

Yet what if there was something she said you needed fixing, but you didn't see there's anything wrong? That's the whole point.

"You’re saying I need to love a sexless marriage, or wait until everyone agrees it’s officially sexless, then love it? "

You still don't get it. NO one said you had to do that. We've all been telling you that right now, your W is sick and just needs some patience from you. Period.

You keep insisting that your M is not about the sex, yet you constantly bring it up. Again, I don't see why you're arguing the point because everyone is basically saying the same thing.

[GoatGal]

My Dear Grey,

Here's the deal.

I feel like we're are all on one side of a thick plexiglass wall, yelling and waving our arms trying to communicate with you, but none of it is getting through to your side.

I don't know why that is, but I think almost everyone here would agree with me.

Maybe share these exchanges with your therapist, if you haven't already.
Maybe he/she can shed some light on it for you.

Glad you had a nice weekend on the 4th, it was good to see you get away from this board a bit.

Meanwhile, dinner sounds great! Lobster, clams, AND scallops?

What time do we eat?

--GG

[Grey]

None of it is getting through?

I don't get it. Really? Nobody is hearing the good things I've done, plus nobody thinks sex is important ENOUGH to take seriously.

Bond, you focus too much on the words and not enough on what they mean. I said "fix" and that's another no-no word for you it sounds like. I'm sorry. I never know when that's going to happen, but I do try to avoid it when I can.

Then you said my wife is sick? Again? She has diabetes, not cholera.

If you don't want to help with my problem, don't get mad at me following advice from the creator of the site we're writing on when it comes to talking about people's needs. I haven't mentioned anything about wanting it, you're inferring it but all I've been talking about is essentially how to talk about it here instead, and that's a separate problem. Yes, I bring up sex as the problem BECAUSE that's the problem--------my wife isn't blind, or dying, or unable to walk or any other hypothetical situation I've been asked about whether or not I would care for her.

Instead, my wife does have problems AND I help her deal with them. It's like you missed the part where I didn't bring up sex or worry about it the entire weekend we enjoyed together too, know what I mean?

GG, you go out to FEEL wanted, even if you don't think you do anything that crosses any boundaries yet. And that's good! I don't feel that though, and itsn't that what I've repeated is the trick? Like, if my wife couldn't have sex with me being different from her not WANTING to, which wasn't the question but that's the difference isn't it? You weren't having sex with those guys who helped make your weekend fun and exciting, right? I'm with you on that one---I think I'd much rather be wanted but without sex than have unwanted sex.

[claire7]

Grey, I think a little bit of humility might go a long way. If I was your wife I would probably stop trying to communicate my needs to you because I haven't once heard you say,"hmmm, I didn't realize I was coming across that way. I don't see it the same way/that wasn't my intention, but I will try to understand your perspective."

You remind me of my H. I would tell him I felt some need wasn't being met-- and instead of understanding I was met with defensiveness: "how can you say that; look at all the things I do to show you I love you; you are too sensitive; it pisses me off when you tell me that because I am trying so hard." It really made me question my version of reality and wonder if I was crazy or being manipulated.

Why are you working so hard to prove yourself to us? You are probably the most defensive poster I have seen on here. No one is out to get you yet you think that is the case.

Bottom line-- (and a question I have asked you at least twice with no answer): if you are not here to work on yourself, what are you hoping to get out of this? You are all you can control. Do you want permission to leave? You have mine-- I have no vested interest in saving your M or not. But if you want to be married to your W, feedback on YOU is what we can give you. It has helped me a lot. More than anything. I'm sorry you are not having the same kind of experience.

Good luck to you.

[Grey]

I'm working so hard to prove myself to you because the advice you gave is the advice I took. It's not that I care so much as I don't think we can actually have a conversation about it when we're not on the same page about understanding the facts regarding what's going on.

" if you are not here to work on yourself, what are you hoping to get out of this?"


See?

It's like the literal LIST of things I've mentioned I've changed haven't happened, including, of all things, therapy.

You're projecting onto me. Maybe I'm terrible at communicating. I WISH you could talk to my wife. I could tell you a billion times I haven't brought up sex or pressured her or anything at all having to do with sex in so long, but it doesn't matter-----you still think I don't listen to my wife. That part really bugs me.

It's not that it bugs me because I'm "not working on myself" or it's only me I can control, but because it's so inaccurate. I feel like we're really not on the same page with who I am or how I treat my wife but BECAUSE I have to explain and defend it nobody hears me? It's just so strange. Everyone seems to think they know my wife better than I do and know me better than I'm willing to admit, but saying my wife is sick and I don't listen to her or ask about her needs, it's just, I dunno? How did we get to this point at all? It's not that I didn't write it, but is it all being deduced from the way I'm talking here instead?

It's not that I think anyone is out to get my explicitly--------I think people aren't REALLY listening. They don't believe me. They think I'm twisting it, or in many cases simply not reading or forgettting what I've written.


For example, you say I haven't changed because of what people say here. For one, I have (really? not once?), but the problem for me is it's not a two-way street. Have you tried to understand that I might actually be doing things right and listening and said the same thing about ","hmmm, I didn't realize I was coming across that way. I don't see it the same way/that wasn't my intention, but I will try to understand your perspective."?

I don't MEAN to be defensive, and just for the record again I'll say THANK YOU for talking, I do appreciate it, but it's like I wish I could start from square one because the information isn't getting across. I think people want me to write about everything else I do JUST so they'll be able to listen to the other parts. If I don't write about what I did this weekend people can't believe I didn't think about sex or had a good time with my wife, nevermind if she'd say the same thing (she would).

My wife DOES feel comfortable communicating her needs to me! I promise! Don't take my word for it though-----but if you assume it's true or if you can believe that's exactly what she would say (I've given specific examples here plenty), but why not me? I don't get the argument that I don't listen to my wife's needs but she SHOULDN'T listen to mine because they're mine and they're selfish rather than potentially mutually beneficial, regardless of me shutting up about it. Her needs ARE selfish sometimes, but I feel like here I'm being told I first don't meet them AND I'm selfish for having a need of my own (again, regardless of not bringing it up, not having it met, and still being good to my wife).

I don't think people believe we're truly happy.

That's so crazy to me. We're VERY happy, especially her.

If I had a dollar for every person that said or commented on us being their favorite couple I'd buy Michele a plane to meet every married couple on the eastern seaboard. That doesn't mean we can't be happier, or that one day I wouldn't like to have a sex life again. I dunno. Maybe I shot myself in the foot and gave everyone the wrong idea about us. It's too bad you can't talk to my wife. You'd love her. And she's happy.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

You're getting really wound up again...slow down a little, OK?


You say you're very happy.
She's happy. You're happy.
So what is the problem?

You're reacting in a very odd way... that is not a criticism, just an observation.
It concerns me.

Just a few points I'd like to make.

1. You are one person saying all of us don't understand what you're saying.
OK. Maybe that's true. What is it that you think we're missing here? And if you read back, do you see that in fact, we really DID miss this?


2. Most of us have tried to advise, explain, listen, reflect, redirect, and, in general, tried to help you. For no personal gain. That doesn't seem to be appreciated, at least not clearly by your words.

3. Most of your responses have been focused on defending your position, rather than trying to change your perspective. It's like you already have all the answers.

4. So far--(and yes, it's possible that I might have missed it)--I have not heard you say:

"Gee, that's interesting. Let me try that."

"I never thought about it that way."

"I'll try that and get back to you."


5. Basically what I'm saying is: YOU HAVE NOT BEEN VALIDATING US in our efforts to help you.

6. You have been talking over us, getting louder and louder to get your point across. You keep saying you're right to think/feel/do this or that.
Maybe you are.
But how is it working for you?

7. You are very self-focused, and I might add, hyper-focused on this issue.
If your marriage is great, you're both happy, and technically, you do NOT (yet) have a SSM, why all the discussion?

8. Mostly when we make a suggestion or comment, you spend a lot of energy explaining why we are wrong. It feels like you are trivializing our input.

The fact is--you came here for support and insight. And we've been trying to give that to you.

Yet it's like beating our heads against the wall.


No doubt you feel the same.

The question is: HOW CAN WE CHANGE THAT?

Do you have a suggestion how we can communicate better?

I, for one, would be willing to try that.


And I'm going out on a limb here, but I have to revert back to the Asperger's discussion.
I really hear that now, more than ever.
Take it or leave it.

It explains a LOT of why we keep getting our signals crossed.

-----------

Now before you go firing off some response defending yourself, maybe take the time to really think through and respond to what I stated above, point by point.

There is no need to defend yourself. I am not criticism or blaming you, just asking for some explanations.



That would be a start.

---GG