Life in a mess 2

[AndyK]

We are meeting later to discuss a concrete plan for the boys going forward.
We do already have a schedule but it needs some adjusting as it is very heavily weighted towards them being almost always with me ( her choice) and I feel that it needs to be adjusted to ensure they spend more time with her.
I am just concerned about the conversation itself, She had suggested that I come up with the plan and we could discuss it and I have created a schedule which I believe is fair but I also believe we should agree on our own personal interaction during handover times.
I am considering asking her to just drop them off and not to come into the house as I really want to avoid conversation as I find it difficult. This will probably annoy her as she seems to make a point of coming in and then starting conversations.
She rang me again last night out of the blue and was having general chat etc.I just don't know what to do for the best.
On the one hand she insists that time and space are necessary and then behaves as if everything is normal and wants to have a chat???

[Grocerykartman]

What is a typical "general chat" that she initiates?

[AndyK]

she phones me when there is really no need, she chats about what has happened that day in work etc and other small talk.
She got annoyed when she was with me on Thursday because I didn't appear to be full of joy to see her and because I was keeping my talk limited and only answering her etc.
I really don't know what she expects and I told her when she stormed off.
She can't expect me to be engaging happily with her when I feel so sad at the end of our marriage.
As much as I know I should be acting as if everything is ok she makes it very difficult as she seems to be seeking attention but giving absolutely nothing in return.
I just can't seem to get a balance no matter what I do.

[MrBond]

"We do already have a schedule but it needs some adjusting as it is very heavily weighted towards them being almost always with me ( her choice) and I feel that it needs to be adjusted to ensure they spend more time with her."

Why do you keep trying to control this? If she doesn't want to be with them, then you can't force it.

You're still trying to control things.

"She can't expect me to be engaging happily with her when I feel so sad at the end of our marriage."

She has a right to "expect". You just don't have to fill those expectations. Stop trying to control how she feels.

"As much as I know I should be acting as if everything is ok she makes it very difficult as she seems to be seeking attention but giving absolutely nothing in return."

Mindreading on your part. To me it seems like she's trying to stay friends with you for the sake of the kids. If you can't handle it, then move on, but don't try to control her actions.

[AndyK]

i do get what you are saying Mr Bond
I can see how it looks as if I am trying to control things, but the schedule was already in place and I just felt that it was unfair on me and the boys that she saw so little of them.
I asked her if she was happy to look at it and she agreed.
When we went out together on Easter Monday the following happened which frustrated me( I know I allowed myself to be frustrated).
I took the boys into the maze for a treasure hunt which they absolutely loved and we spent nearly an hour doing it, meanwhile she lay in the sun and declined the chance to join us.
Then I took them to crazy golf for over an hour, she did the same thing,lay in the sun.
I just found it strange that she would choose to miss out on those activities considering it was supposed to be about spending time as much as possible doing fun things with our boys.
I have raised this with her and for the first time she seemed to really accept what I was saying and has said it was wrong for her to do it.
I don't want to control her, I have no clue what she does when she isn't in my company, but I think it's sad that she is missing out on some lovely times with the boys and I worry that she doesn't realise it and it might be too late when she does.The boys are already seeming to come to terms with her rarely being there and thats sad considering how devoted she once was.
The bottom line is though that I know it is her choice and her loss, .
She also revealed to me tonight that she desperately wants to go on our holiday to my sisters abroad.
I thought she had accepted it couldn't happen but it appears not, she is trying to find a way that makes it possible but doesn't want the pressure cooker that might happen if we spend to much time together.
I don't think it would be possible, I would find it very difficult.

[Grocerykartman]

I took the boys into the maze for a treasure hunt which they absolutely loved and we spent nearly an hour doing it, meanwhile she lay in the sun and declined the chance to join us.
Then I took them to crazy golf for over an hour, she did the same thing,lay in the sun.
I just found it strange that she would choose to miss out on those activities considering it was supposed to be about spending time as much as possible doing fun things with our boys.
I have raised this with her and for the first time she seemed to really accept what I was saying and has said it was wrong for her to do it..

I went through a very similar circumstance the summer before my WAW moved out. Just reading this brought back some uncomfortable but important memories. I remember going to the beach one weekend and spending probably a couple hours with my 2.5 year old daughter at the time in the water and playing in the sand, and my ex wanted to do nothing but sit in the sun and be indifferent to everything. (I suppose that's what one does anyway at the beach, but I digress)

Not long after that, we spent time taking my daughter blueberry picking for the first time and it was another distant experience.

So yes, the intuitive thing to think seems to be "wow, I get that she's not wanting to be around ME now, but I just can't believe that she doesn't want to do things with her child." That's what I thought then too. But that's the reality of it.

I don't know if the WAW still agrees to do activities like this just because she feels guilty not being there in body even if not in mind, or maybe she actually is hoping that SOMETHING, ANYTHING will happen to make her want to change her mind about wanting to leave the marriage, or maybe they just feel they have no choice but to attend, or what. I won't pretend to know.

But, I think you can be darn sure that things like mini golf and kids mazes are not going to be enjoyable for someone who wants out of a marriage. It's another form of pressure and guilt. My guess is that these things probably seem either really boring and trivial compared to the anguish she has going on her head, or she may be afraid that getting close to the boys will keep her tied to you tighter when she wants to run. Again, I don't really know (being just a clueless dude and all) but that's my guess.

My WAW did ultimately snap out of the aloofness, and hopefully yours will too. But expect this to continue for a while. Make the best of it.

I don't want to control her, I have no clue what she does when she isn't in my company, but I think it's sad that she is missing out on some lovely times with the boys and I worry that she doesn't realise it and it might be too late when she does.
.

That's for her to figure out on her own.

[MrBond]

"I can see how it looks as if I am trying to control things, but the schedule was already in place and I just felt that it was unfair on me and the boys that she saw so little of them."

So? Again, she has to WANT to see them. You can't say that she doesn't see them enough or whatever. It's not up to you to judge.

[AndyK]

i totally agree, I suggested a change to her to see if she was interested, she agreed, had she not it would have remained the same. I was trying to get a bit more time off as I am exhausted but had she refused I wouldn't have pushed it.
As it was she was happy to agree so at least it gives me a little more free time as I am beginning to struggle on my own but didn't want to say that to her as I don't want her to agree just because she feels compelled to.
The issue of our holiday is a difficult one, I don't see how it would be possible for her to go but I know the boys would love to have her there and she really wants to find a way of making it possible.

[melissag]

I can't see how it is possibly a good idea for your W to go on the vacation with you. I just read your thoughts after the weekend with her, and that was just a weekend. As far as doing things as a family sometimes, I think it is OK on occasion and nice for the kids, but it seems to me that a whole week would not only be difficult for you, but would trigger reconciliation fantasies for your boys which would only create further disappointment from them.

It sounds to me like she wants the good parts of the R with you but not the parts that require any work. My H did the same thing - he was happy to have family time and have sex with me the first three months of our S - and I played into it because I thought maybe he was coming around. Ummm, no. If she is not saying that she is interested in R or willing to work on the M, she is not coming around - she is eating cake. The longer you serve it to her, the longer you are going to stay attached to her and feeling awful.

As far as interactions with kid exchanges - I decided one day I was going to have the kids ready at the door when H arrived - so as soon as he pulled up, they were halfway down the walk. It would have been weird for him to try to come in then. When he drops them off, I watch for him and I go outside as soon as I see him pull up, and greet the kids outside. It worked. If your W throws another fit about you snubbing her, just let her go next time. Let her live with the consequence of her actions.

This is going to sound harsh, because I know you are desperately searching for a sign that your W may be coming around - but you need to accept the truth right now. Right now, she does not want to be your W. She does not want the kind of R you want with her. When you read into the things she does, you are creating expectations that will almost surely be disappointed. Trust in the fact that if your W wants to come back to you, she knows how to say so. Since she hasn't said so, you need to focus on you and live your life as though she is never coming back.

I remember when someone said something similar to me and I was crushed. But I have found that it is true. I did not start to believe in myself until I started to live as though H was not coming back, and started to accept that he is never coming back.

Hope the parenting time convo goes well - I agree with the others that if your W is not spending much time with the kids, that's her issue to deal with, not yours. You worry about yourself and the kids. Not her.

[AndyK]

thank you Melissa
I agree that most of how I view what she says and does is my way of trying to believe, foolishly, that she might be changing her mind about leaving.
I should explain that throughout our life as a couple my W has always had problems saying sorry to me, she is very very stubborn and single minded. Even for the most trivial of things she never apologised. I actually used to make light of the fact with her and used to just make a joke about it but it really did hurt me that she felt unable to apologise.
So part of me thinks that even if she did start to have second thoughts that this side of her personality would make it difficult for her to come and say to me.
I can tell she isn't happy right now as she looks very tired and drawn and I rarely see her smile.
But I have now fully accepted that she is gone and almost certainly never coming back.
It is the most difficult thing I have ever had to deal with in my life as I never imagined life without her but I know its a fact now so i am just going to have to get on with my life.
Strangely this realisation has begun to make things a little bit easier as its true that hanging on to false hope is very difficult and painful. So letting go completely has had a interesting effect on me.
As for her relationship with the boys, well I know it is no longer my concern whether or not she maintains a relationship with them. I hope she does for their sake, but I know that all I can control is how I am with them and I just want to spend as much time as possible and try and be the best dad that I can be.
I also realise that it would be impossible for her to come on hoilday with us as it would be two weeks of strain and worry. Also my sister knows everything that has happened and although she is very calm and level headed she loves me and would find it difficult to accept my W coming after everything that has happened.