A Voyage Into The MLCer Mind II

[Wonka]

Bright,

Thank you for your thoughts. I can see how you would view your XH.

Your story is different, because it seems that Ms. Wonka is open for communication. Still, she might not need the same kind of healing you do. Just my opinion.

If not, then why bother telling me that she never got "closure" from me with pain etched in her eyes. I thought I'd go this to give her that closure and heal in her own fashion. If she isn't interested, then I'd be happy to walk along on my own path.

I've done a lot of healing myself over the past 10 years. I just feel really bad for my MLC antics that impacted her and am trying to make things right. If she isn't interested nor wants that, it's perfectly okay with me. This doesn't change who I've become and how I relate to people these days.

[Whiterose]

I don't have any advice or thoughts to offer you Wonka....I'm glad, for you, that your wrote the letter and, in her way, that she was able to answer you. It's a step to, what I hope, is a healing place for you both

[ericmsant2]

Wonka,

Thank you for responding.

It has been 9 years (give or take) since you and Ms Wonka spent significant time together – right?


If so, then did she understand your boundary? Maybe she forgot? Maybe she changed?

As you probably can see by now, I am not a people pleaser

Understood.

Could you maybe have been a bit more….”empathetic”?

This is self-assurance.

Self assurance can sometimes come across as arrogant. I’m not calling you arrogant – I’m only saying that if you look at how your responses have been that many of the people looking in from the outside – see something a little different.

Nope. Just that I feel that Ms. Wonka doesn't have the balls to tell me this when I've heard from other people.

Can you respect that maybe that is just how she feels more at peace?

This comes with a condition: trust that my confidences will be honored in an authentic manner.

Did she know this? Did you even give Mr Wonka enough TIME to learn this about YOU?

Who wants friends who can break your trust nilly willy left and right?

I agree that personal boundaries are very important. I just think that if we do not communicate them…how are people suppose to know. It almost like we are setting them up to fail, which leads me to my next question. Deep down inside did you really want this to fail?

Friends just don't break your confidences.

Agreed – but maybe Ms Wonka was WORKING towards becoming YOUR friend – so maybe she wasn’t there yet. Consider this…..Ms Wonka is suppose to respect YOUR boundaries – yet – you seem to be stepping over hers by bringing up the marriage? Maybe Ms Wonka had a boundary that she did not want her M discussed. Guess what – you didn’t know though…so it would be impossible for you to know that you were not suppose to bring it up.

Friendships take time….the take communication….the take trust. I know you know this. Can you really say that this was your best attempt? If you can, then be at peace.

[Wonka]

Eric,

You are correct that Ms. Wonka moved out in 2004 so it has been 9 years since then.

If so, then did she understand your boundary? Maybe she forgot? Maybe she changed?

I don't think so. In the 10 years we were together, Ms. Wonka has heard and seen me in action in regard to this type of boundary. I cannot imagine why she would think otherwise given my consistent actions in this regard.


Could you maybe have been a bit more….”empathetic”?

You can be empathetic while not being a people pleaser at the same time. See the difference?

Self assurance can sometimes come across as arrogant. I’m not calling you arrogant – I’m only saying that if you look at how your responses have been that many of the people looking in from the outside – see something a little different.

This is a good way of looking at this. Thanks.


Can you respect that maybe that is just how she feels more at peace?

I do sincerely hope Ms. Wonka is at peace. That's what we all want for our friends and loved ones.


Quote:
This comes with a condition: trust that my confidences will be honored in an authentic manner.

Did she know this? Did you even give Mr Wonka enough TIME to learn this about YOU?

See above. My actions on this topic have been consistent..by actions, verbally, and interactions.

I agree that personal boundaries are very important. I just think that if we do not communicate them…how are people suppose to know. It almost like we are setting them up to fail, which leads me to my next question. Deep down inside did you really want this to fail?

Not really. I think it was important to restate this and reinforce it as a reminder. Communicating your boundaries from time to time helps clarify your position. This can be done in different ways. Through example, verbally, or facial expression. In my view, when boundaries are clearly understood, then communication follows. Seems to be logical to me.

Agreed – but maybe Ms Wonka was WORKING towards becoming YOUR friend – so maybe she wasn’t there yet. Consider this…..Ms Wonka is suppose to respect YOUR boundaries – yet – you seem to be stepping over hers by bringing up the marriage? Maybe Ms Wonka had a boundary that she did not want her M discussed.

I hadn't thought of it in this way. sigh Need to get back to being the rational, thoughtful Wonka now. Deep breath. Thanks for this, Eric.

You could say that I've Fort Knoxed Wonka with several tire spikes sprinkled on all roads here. This happens when I'm disappointed by someone's actions.

[ericmsant2]

Your welcome Wonka

You could say that I've Fort Knoxed Wonka with several tire spikes sprinkled on all roads here. This happens when I'm disappointed by someone's actions.

I suspected as much and understand. I think the tire spikes are the reason you felt the need to communicate the boundary the way that you did. Yes, Ms Wonka has seen you operate this way – but that was 10 years ago – and maybe a lot has changed for Ms Wonka.

I can see the difference between being a people pleasure and empathetic.

So…I looked up Empathy on Wikipedia.

Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another sentient or fictional being. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion.

Further definition….
Empathy has many different definitions that encompass a broad range of emotional states, such as caring for other people and having a desire to help them; experiencing emotions that match another person's emotions; discerning what another person is thinking or feeling; and making less distinct the differences between the self and the other.

Since empathy involves understanding the emotional states of other people, the way it is characterized is derivative of the way emotions themselves are characterized. If, for example, emotions are taken to be centrally characterized by bodily feelings, then grasping the bodily feelings of ANOTHER will be central to empathy. On the other hand, if emotions are more centrally characterized by a combination of beliefs and desires, then grasping these beliefs and desires will be more essential to empathy. The ability to imagine oneself as another person is a sophisticated imaginative process. However, the basic capacity to recognize emotions is probably innate and may be achieved unconsciously. Yet it can be trained and achieved with various degrees of intensity or accuracy.

Empathy can be divided into two major components
• Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy:the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is supposed to be based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.

• Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state. The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.

So if you take a step back and look at the entire interaction….her response…your subsequent response – were you really being empathic to what/how she may be feeling. This by no means is to say that your boundary should have been crossed.

Consider this….what if you would have waited a bit longer, maybe once you guys started to really speak and heal, to express your boundary. Do you think that may have been a better approach. A better way to achieve YOUR goals.

I give you a lot of credit for even attempting this. Personally, I think you can still succeed. IMO, Your success will be based on how you start your interactions with Ms Wonka.

[Wonka]

Gineen,

Ms. Wonka made that "don't have closure" comment before she moved out of the house.

Eric,

I guess you felt that your own 2 x 4 wasn't sufficient. Like the guy that you are, you just had to roll out the massive Lord of the Rings slingshot here, heh?

Darling, I am pretty darn good at being empathetic. You joined here a bit later. If you've seen my posts around here going back to the Fall, my friends here will attest to this. At this moment, I was wading deep in my own disappointment that empathetic drowned. No worries. I went all Pam Anderson in my red suit and rescued empathetic from the bottom of the ocean floor. She's fine.

[ericmsant2]

Wonka,

It actually was not a 2 x 4. I was simply trying to highlight another way that you might have approach it. It was not a 2 x 4. It was an attempt to help. As I mentioned. I think you can do this and credit you for trying.

Like the guy that you are, you just had to roll out the massive Lord of the Rings slingshot here, heh?

I sense I upset you. That was not my intent. The guy I am, is someone that just tries to help - to give back. That is all. It was not meant to hurt you. I know you are hurting already and FWIW, I am sorry that you are disappointed and/or hurt.

[Wonka]

Nope....I am not hurt at all. Eric, I was teasing you as I know guys like to 'fix' things and pull out the biggies. Are you sure that I wasn't married to you?!

Dang, my Pammy Anderson dive was a massive FAIL to you. You didn't notice at all.

[Mach1]

I find it interesting that Ms. Wonka turned this convo around to be about "me" healing. Ummmm, Ms. Wonka got hurt as well. Isn't this interesting? It is her view and I cannot change it. I feel that I gave this my most sincere and genuine effort. Just disappointing to see the above response being written by someone else. I will continue onward in my own path and be the awesome Wonka with my hot girl, Cass!

Previously, when I received communications from Ms. Wonka that I know are NOT from her, I completely ignore them. When I do see Ms. Wonka communicating with me directly herself, I responded accordingly. I just don't like the fact that there's "someone" out there speaking for her. It rubs me the wrong way as being inauthentic and not being true to themselves.

So I am trying to understand this...




Are you CERTAIN that she didn't write the response ???

What changes if she DID write the response ???

Does that change the expectations that you placed on it ???

I asked you this a while back...

Specifically, what part of this helps YOU move forward with your life ?

What are hoping (expecting) to gain from this ???
(and I know that you said "nothing" before, although if your end result was truly "nothing", then there would be zero need for it).


I dunno Wonka...

It seems that you expected a different response from her, and when you didn't get the prescribed response, then you fell back to a boundary (which I don't fully understand or see), to allow yourself to push away angrily from her response.

What part of this interaction (that seems to have knocked you on your asss), either helps you to find peace, or keeps you from finding peace ???


Just curious here...

Cause it seems that you are looking for forgiveness, or to find her right where you left her 9 years ago.

It also seems that you are holding her accountable for your feelings about this.

[Wonka]

Mach,

Will get back to you later.