Pre-piecing Thoughts

[JayMan]

Thanks Mimi - I do appreciate the support.

Lovethehub, these are kind of long answers, but they might not make sense without a little back story.

The first year it was probably my kids. I know everyone thinks their kids are perfect, but I could relate many stories of people coming to me and telling me how they had done some sweet thing. W insisted they were uncontrollable brats, and would lash out at them constantly, and tell me it was all my fault they were undisciplined and awful. Everyone of our friends told her she was wrong. We even did a 6 month experiment where I took over all discipline for four kids, and our family was GREAT, but W just couldn't stop herself from griping and started getting back into discipline. If she felt I didn't punish harshly enough, she'd not speak to me for a week. It's interesting fast-forwarding three years, and D10 (D7 at the time) is starting to act JUST like D13 (D10 at the time). Payback's a B!

She started going into depression year two - would spend a lot of time in bed, on her phone, on her laptop. She'd be in bed when I got home from work, get up for an hour and make dinner, and take her dinner back to her bed, and stay there all night. I would tuck in all four kids, but if they didn't come to our room to see her, they wouldn't see her. I even made deals with here where if she would get out of bed by 10:00am and stay out of bed until 8:00pm, we'd go somewhere nice. She finally got on medication, and that helped a little bit.

Year three, it was money, although she still spent most of her time in bed. Her XH stopped paying child support, and when he was going to pay the back money, she was mad at me, so told him to put it in an education fund for them just to spite me. She specifically told me she did it to spite me. I also caught her buying stuff online, and she would sit and scroll through shopping sites for hours - I would come home every day to delivered packages. Also, January 2013, the XW stopped paying child support again (I had asked W to set it up through bank withdrawals, and she refused). She wouldn't do anything about it, and of course, I'm not going to let my stepkids go without, so I paid for everything. I told her she didn't get any spending money until she corrected it. She was livid, and went around telling everyone that I was giving her no money - even though I was paying all the bills and she had a credit card.

I think those are the biggies. She wanted to not be bothered by the kids, to be able to spend whatever she wanted, and just lie in bed all day shopping or playing games.

[adinva]

That sounds like a very bad deal for your kids. Why did you get married to someone who was mean to your kids?

[lovethehub]

Those sound more like your complaints about the M. What did your wife need you to change?

[JayMan]

Advina - she faked being very sweet in the beginning.

LTH - I tried to recap what W had complained about. She literally wanted me to be harsher on the kids, let her spend whatever money she wanted, and allow her to lie in bed all day on her phone or laptop. I don't know what else to add?

[adinva]

So you didnt know her well enough, maybe didn't take enough time before marrying her. Where do your kids' needs fit into your life plans?

[mustardseed]

I have a feeling that all three of those situations you mentioned she would have viewed in a different way. Unless she truly is an awful person who hid her horridness until after marriage.

Here is an example of different perspectives from my sitch. One of the issues my husband mentioned during the conversation we had that led to our reconciliation was about how I pulled away. I tended to retreat to the bedroom when he would come home, but I thought I was responding to him. He never seemed happy to see me, everything I did seemed to annoy him, although he never said it, that was the vibe I would get from his body language. Rather than deal with that rejection I would remove myself. I felt he was pushing me away. He felt I was pulling away. It was a weird dance that drove us so far apart we became strangers. The more time we had together in the house, the more time we actively avoided each other--me hiding out in the bedroom and he monopolizing the main part of the house. When we talked about it I realized that his body language did in fact mean he needed space, but not that he didn't want me around. Two different perspectives of the same thing. I was very careful in that conversation to not jump in and said, "but I did that because you would roll your eyes whenever I would talk". I listened to him, validated what he said, then respond by saying something like, "so you thought that I was avoiding you, whereas I thought that you didn't want me near you."

I don't know your W at all, but here are some scenarios that might help you understand where her issues were, I am assuming a whole heck of a lot but the point is to try and get you to think about what her perception MIGHT be--a way to get you to try and see another perspective. I am an amateur at this but hopefully it might help a bit.

1) how you parented. You mentioned your kids are a bit older than hers so it makes sense that she might have had different expectations. However, is it possible you came across as arrogant in your parenting to her? Do you think you might have sent a non-verbal (or maybe verbal) message that you were more experienced so you know better? Also, I feel like dad's get more credit for good parenting for even minor things, whereas mom's are just expected to do it well. Is it possible that she resented being considered the "lesser" parent in general? This could lead to her being resentful and spiteful and (childlishly) putting your kids down to put you down and make her feel like less of a failure as a mother.

2) When you decided to take over, is it possible that she took this as a further indication that you did not appreciate the things that she had to offer in the family or the relationship. Men tend to want to protect their family and provide for their family, and since you had single dad experience you probably felt comfortable providing all of the roles in the household leaving her wondering where she fit in. Not only were you able to rise to the challenge, but has a male you probably got more kudos for doing it from outsiders than a woman would get for doing the same thing. This could lead her to wanting to retreat. Feeling useless and unappreciated and not sure where she belongs in this family. For women this brings out this fear of being left out (isolated). Talking (even fighting) is a way to reestablish some sort of connection (negative or positive doesn't matter as long as there is some connection). In the wild female pack animals are very vulnerable when they are isolated. They depend on the pack, and not having a role in the pack puts them in danger of being pushed out. A very scary feeling. Yes, we are evolved, but our base instincts are the same.

3) Spending money. The isolation, retreating to her room, avoiding any contact because the perceived rejection is too much to bare, leads to the need to fill the emptiness. Shopping is one way people fill this hole. Having access to the family money provided a lingering connection. By cutting her off from that she felt like she was left without a life boat. At this point she felt like she had no other way to fill the void. She was depressed, felt useless, alone, and now her one connection to the pack and to the outside world was cut off. She blamed you. You were trying to keep the family afloat, but you see, she was so far retreated at this point that she couldn't see past her own desperate need for connection.

This is when she realized she needed to go find another "pack" to join.

Now she is back. Make her feel valued. Stop focusing on how you can do things so much better than she can, and compliment her on the little things that she does do. Ignore the things that she does wrong for the time being. She needs to feel valued. Not just as your romantic partner, but as an essential contributor. She might be so far out of practice that maybe right now she is not doing much of anything in your mind, but find something. Anything, no matter how small it is, and focus on that. Not on her shortcomings. And whatever you do DO NOT hold her up to your standard. Also, for the short term, it is probably best of you leave disciplining of her children up to her, and your children should be your responsibility. But make sure that your children are respectful to her. Let her see that you will not allow your children to walk over her or disrespect her.

I hope this helps. I have been reading a lot of books on the difference between men and women lately and it really helps to be able to see the other side. I still have a hard time with the male perspective but I am slowly starting to understand my husband a little bit better.

[lovethehub]

We even did a 6 month experiment where I took over all discipline for four kids, and our family was GREAT, but W just couldn't stop herself from griping and started getting back into discipline. If she felt I didn't punish harshly enough, she'd not speak to me for a week. It's interesting fast-forwarding three years, and D10 (D7 at the time) is starting to act JUST like D13 (D10 at the time). Payback's a B!

She started going into depression year two - would spend a lot of time in bed, on her phone, on her laptop. She'd be in bed when I got home from work, get up for an hour and make dinner, and take her dinner back to her bed, and stay there all night. I would tuck in all four kids, but if they didn't come to our room to see her, they wouldn't see her. I even made deals with here where if she would get out of bed by 10:00am and stay out of bed until 8:00pm, we'd go somewhere nice. She finally got on medication, and that helped a little bit.

Year three, it was money, although she still spent most of her time in bed. Her XH stopped paying child support, and when he was going to pay the back money, she was mad at me, so told him to put it in an education fund for them just to spite me. She specifically told me she did it to spite me. I also caught her buying stuff online, and she would sit and scroll through shopping sites for hours - I would come home every day to delivered packages. Also, January 2013, the XW stopped paying child support again (I had asked W to set it up through bank withdrawals, and she refused). She wouldn't do anything about it, and of course, I'm not going to let my stepkids go without, so I paid for everything. I told her she didn't get any spending money until she corrected it. She was livid, and went around telling everyone that I was giving her no money - even though I was paying all the bills and she had a credit card.

None of these sound like complaints your wife had about YOU except for the discipline. What else did she need YOU to do differently during this time? These are summaries of her behavior, with your complaints about her behavior thrown into each one.

I have read all of your links and there is a continued pattern of you pointing out what your W did wrong, how you fixed it, how wonderful you are, etc. I am not trying to be rude, I am being honest. I don't see one instance where you have actually looked inside yourself to see what you could have done differently and where YOU NEED TO GROW. From the perspective you type, it is easy to understand why your W is continuing to pull away/come back/pull away/come back. If you want that cycle to stop, you really need to be willing to address your own issues and not just your W's. I know you will say you have because that is your reply to each piece of advice I have tried to give you as someone who WAS YOUR W in my own R.

[JayMan]

I honestly have not seen the responses from 1/25 until now, so I'll try to respond:

I have been insanely busy. I am working on my projects, fielding calls from other companies to come join them, balancing my two kids and my two step-kids, and W actually putting forth a bit of effort.

@Advina: my kids come first before everything except W. But when W is demeaning them, and ridiculing them, and treating them like sh!t, then the kids come first. I would stand behind W, and support her in every way, until she attacks children. Maybe she gets it from XH1 physical/verbal abuse, but I draw the line there. I will not debate this point.

@MustardSeed: Thank you so much for your input. I literally brow-beat my own children at one point to try to get W a place to stand. I got up and made lunches and breakfast because W wouldn't get out of bed. I went and sang songs to (then) S3 because W would be in bed playing games on her phone ignoring him. When you've been mother and father for so long, how do you step back and ask your W to be a W?

@LTH - I sincerely value your input, even if it seems like I'm opinionated and bullheaded. I know I am.

But W wanted me to let her spend money - I paid off $30k in debt she brought in, paid off her car, found out she hid $16k in child support while I paid for the step-kids, then she went $50k in debt during MLC ~ how do you find financial trust after that?

Her two kids still call me "Dad" even after she told them that I was "scum", and that I wasn't Dad, and to never speak to me again. What else do I do when I have loved them as my own?

At what point do you finally admit your W is just not worth it? No matter how much DBing you do?

[lovethehub]

Jon,

I think you should let your W go. Not because she isn't worth it, but because you refuse to recognize your place in the downfall of your M and no matter what she does, it won't ever be enough for you. She deserves better.

[NTX_Dad]

Hey John, how's it been going? Good I hope.