Four weeks in, hopeful but just starting!

[KGirl]

I have learned so much and become more hopeful through this board - thank you! I’ve decided to post my own story to help me organize my thoughts and hopefully get some advice/tips on how to proceed given what’s happened the last several weeks. I’m a pretty detail-oriented person so I apologize for the length.

Background: H and I are both 28. M for 2.5 years, no kids, started dating in high school and have been together for 10 years with a few “off” periods. Bought a house a year ago.

Dec. 14: H is particularly cranky/not very nice. Not responsive to my questions about going out to dinner, maybe going out and doing something fun, etc. I ask what his deal is - he replies he’s not happy with our marriage - that we’ve become more like roommates or good friends than H/W and that we’ve been taking our own separate paths. This isn’t necessarily surprising as I haven’t been super happy as of late either, but didn’t realize he felt similarly. I’m not too worried at this point. I ask him about reading a Gottman book that I’ve heard good things about. He agrees that we could read one chapter at a time and do the exercises afterwards. I download the ebook.

Dec. 15: I see H is reading the ebook. I ask him where he’s at and if we can schedule a time to do the exercises together. He says “We could try it but I don’t see any of this working. All of the examples in the book of people who eventually get divorced sound just like us. I don’t want to get your hopes up because this is just how we are and neither of us are going to change”

Of course, I do everything wrong after this and completely flip out. For the next week I cry, plead, mope around, beg, promise I’ll do anything, ask him what’s wrong, ask him how he can just give up so quickly, remind him about how hard we worked to buy our house and get to where we are. His responses continue to be along the lines of “I’m done. Nothing is going to change. There’s no point in telling you why I’m unhappy because you’ll just argue with me about it. You’re not respecting what I want regarding this.” However, he sees no problem with us living together until things are “finalized” because he thinks we can con’t to be good friends. I move all my stuff immediately to the guest room/guest bathroom. Everything I do makes it clear that I’m super depressed and that my life is over.

December 23: I send him an e-mail stating that it may be best if he goes somewhere else for awhile so we can have some time apart (probably also a mistake). Between Christmas Eve and NYE we alternate spending 1-2 days at a time away from the house by visiting our families. We see each other briefly in the mornings/evenings but I start cutting off my contact with me - any conversations we have are purely logistics/household stuff and I’m very cold/uncaring.

December 28 - I read DR and realize my errors! I also realize while we’re apart that trying to be cold and having no contact is just making me miserable and probably not helping things given that it’s just perpetuating what he’s stated has been going poorly. I make it a point to start instituting techniques - 180’s, GAL, some of the things from the LRT that I can do while still living together like not initiating R talk, being attentive and listening, not leaving the room if he enters it and I’m already there, not asking where he’s going/when he’ll be back, etc. In general, acting more like he’s a friend/good acquaintance than someone I’m angry at and want to avoid!

After reading DR I slip up a little (maybe? maybe not?) and initiate an R talk when we’re both done having our holiday travels where I calmly ask if he can tell me more about what he's unhappy with, and that I will not argue or try to fix it - it would just help me understand him better. I just want to listen to his thoughts. This seems to work as he talks to me for 1-2 hours about everything he’s thinking/feeling. Some of the reasons why he wants to leave:
-Lack of ML. His ideal frequency is 4-5 times a week (I had no idea!) - we’ve been more around 3-4 times a month for the past year or so.
-Lack of romantic connection/attraction to me now. He sees me as a really good friend and still wants me to be in his life.
-I bring up negative things from the past and can’t let them go (true)
-He doesn’t feel trusted and he feels like he always has to report back to me and can’t just go out and have fun if he’s out with friends/coworkers (true. There’ve been several times over the past 10 years that he’s done things that have disappointed me that I blow out of proportion and bring up constantly whenever he's in a similar situation)
-ultimatums/feeling pressured into decisions he didn’t want to make. He says he wasn’t really ready to get engaged when we did, but felt he had to because I gave him an ultimatum (kind of true, longer story to that). He’s not sure if marrying me was the right decision, though he says he did mean everything he said when we said our vows (?). It’s becoming clear that I’ve been attempting to control too much in many aspects of his life (his decisions/timeframe for making them, his activities like how much time he spends on fantasy sports, who he hangs out with, etc) and that I really need to work on this.

Throughout the conversation I just listened and validated, didn’t argue or try to point out what I could fix. Afterwards he said he felt a lot better about our situation and that I was willing to just listen/respect his feelings, but that it “didn’t change anything”.

From New Year’s Eve onwards (even after the slip up below) we’ve been in this strange holding pattern of going about our normal activities, but not bringing up anything about R, D, etc. I’ve tried to detach myself somewhat and follow the DB techniques but it’s hard to be mysterious/GAL when we live together and share a car (that he purchased, so I can’t exactly just take off and not let him know when I’ll be back because he has first dibs on it). It actually feels better than it has in a long time, but I’m not sure if it means my small changes/attitude shift is actually working or if he’s just checked out already so he’s happier in general. I’ve begun working on small goals like going to the gym regularly as one just opened nearby and looking into getting my own car so that we’re not so dependent on each other’s schedules.

January 2: I slip up again - grr! I went out to dinner w/ a friend who said there must be someone else he’s interested in or else he wouldn’t just say he’s done without going to counseling or making attempts to repair things. During my flipout phase I asked him multiple times if there was someone else and he said no - I believed him. I got really fixated on this and when I get home ask:
Me: I’ve been thinking more about what’s happening, and it’s hard for me to make sense of it all. It’s very confusing that you’re not interested in working on things. I have to wonder if maybe there’s something else going on that’s factoring into this. Maybe someone else you’ve been talking to or even the idea of someone else?
H: *long pause* I’m not seeing anyone or having an affair..
Me: Maybe it’s not even that. Some people have emotional affairs where they confide a lot and get attached to someone else, like they would with their spouse.
H: *another long pause* Well… there’s kind of something. It’s really messed up though.
Me: Sounds like it’s been hard for you. Do you want to talk about it? I’d be happy to listen if that would help.
H proceeds to talk to me for 2-3 hours about the following situation. I’ll try and summarize through his viewpoint: Over the past few months he’s been talking with a woman at work (26, married, pregnant w/ 3rd child) about their marriages and things they’ve been unhappy with - complaining basically. He’s developed a friendship with her, finds her attractive, and says they are very “compatible” and have similar interests. And yet, he says she reminds him a lot of me in terms of what she’s like and her interests (but we don’t have similar interests? Curious.)

Talking to her has “helped him realize” that there are other people out there that he could be happier with than me, even if it’s not necessarily her. He sees potential with this woman for something more than friends, but realizes that would be a bad idea for a number of reasons. But, just the idea of is enough for him to take the chance to leave me and explore these “other people” who may or may not exist. He fears if we stay married that he’ll have to have an affair at some point just to see what it'd be like with someone else, and he doesn’t want to be a cheater. He mentioned that who knows what may happen in the future, maybe some time after getting a D he’ll find that it was a mistake to D and we could very well get back together (??), but that “nothing changes unless there’s a change” and he needs this change to find out. One of his coworkers has been egging him on to see how far he can take it with this woman (grr!).

It sounds like he hasn’t done any actual research into the process of getting a D or investigated options, beyond a friend handing him a business card for a family lawyer. That makes me hopeful that I’ll have time and that he’s not eager to take initiate action (but who knows? I need to stop mind-reading!) After all this talk he says again that he feels much closer to me, especially since I didn’t “go crazy”, but he still just thinks of me as a really good friend.

So, here are some specific questions I’m wondering about, but general advice is also welcome:

1) ML. He’s identified this as an issue. I’m certainly interested. Should I try to initiate and see what happens, or is that considered pursuing? Maybe there’s a way to do so w/out “pursuing”? Rebuilding that aspect may help him see whether or not I’m truly “just” a friend. And this wouldn’t be just for him, it would also be for me, as I now see that I was terrible at initiating things or making it clear that I was interested.

2) How should I approach living together in terms of day-to-day logistics? For example, I was going to the grocery store the other day and he asked if he could come with to pick out some food for himself (at least he knew he shouldn’t ask me to get things for him!) I wasn’t sure if I should say yes, or say no and try and separate our activities more. There are a lot of things like that that I’m not sure how to address and if being friendly/following his lead is best, or if I should try to go more “gray” and not do things like watch TV in the same room, go on errands together, etc. I think living together is what needs to happen for now because I’ve read that I shouldn’t be the first to leave, and he’s not leaving either (he thinks he may be able to refi and buy me out of the house - I have no interest in fighting for it because I can’t afford it on my own.). Eventually if he does start the paperwork, I guess I’ll have to think about whether it’s in my best interest to get out and rent an apt. sooner rather than later. I feel torn on this because part of me feels like he needs to see what it’s like to not have me around at all, as I’m not really interested in being friends with him/letting him have it “all” if we do D, but I also fear that if I’m the one walking out it will validate all his thoughts and push him further to take action.

3) How should I approach questions/statements about logistics of D/life after D? For example, the other day he mentioned something about how maybe we could continue to have a joint cell phone plan and he’d just send me money every month. I said I didn’t think that would work because the point is that we’d be separating all parts of our lives, including finances. He said it’d be expensive to have individual plans, maybe he could get added back to his parent’s family plan, etc. I ended the conversation by saying “I don’t know that I can really talk or think about this unless it becomes necessary.” He’s also mentioned things about selling vs. keeping the house and I’m just not sure how cooperative to be. I certainly won’t provide him suggestions on what to do!

Phew, those were a lot of thoughts. Thanks for reading if you got this far!

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[KGirl]

Thanks, Cadet. I feel like I know what I need to do after re-reading DR so many times.. but actually doing it is so hard! It's probably not detaching if I'm wondering every day if today's the day I'll come home and he says he has an L appointment, or what it means that he hasn't mentioned anything about our R/D in a week now. But, hard to keep those thoughts out of my head. Guess I have to get busier (which should be easier to do now that it doesn't feel like -50 degrees outside!)

[AnotherStander]

You mentioned reading DR, so hopefully you have a good handle on how to act around him now. Also read Sandi2's 37 Rules and live those tips! Much of what you wrote actually sounds pretty typical of stories around here. The bottom line is neither of you worked on the M. Neither of you made an effort to fill the other's love tank. If he hadn't BD'd you, you probably would have BD'd him somewhere down the road. Read the 5 Love Languages, it'll help you understand how your M got here.

1) ML. He’s identified this as an issue. I’m certainly interested. Should I try to initiate and see what happens, or is that considered pursuing?

Initiating it is definitely pursuit. One of the problems in DB'ing is that we want to "fix" all the previous problems, so if infrequent ML was an issue then we think we need to double or triple up on that. The problem is once a spouse is a WAS, they don't want that AT ALL. So there are some things that you can't really do a 180 on and this is one of them.

2) How should I approach living together in terms of day-to-day logistics? For example, I was going to the grocery store the other day and he asked if he could come with to pick out some food for himself (at least he knew he shouldn’t ask me to get things for him!) I wasn’t sure if I should say yes, or say no and try and separate our activities more.

This is kind of a gray area, but personally before W moved out I tried to show her as much as I could what life would be like if she decided to stay. So I was the best husband and father I could be during that time. She still left and is still gone, so I don't know that it helped any, but I have no regrets about it.

3) How should I approach questions/statements about logistics of D/life after D?

Face it head on. Don't initiate convos, but if he brings it up then it's OK to discuss. Make it clear to him that you WILL protect yourself, you're not just going to roll over and let him do what he wants. You want to show him strength, dignity, independence and integrity throughout this process.

[Accuray]

KGirl, that's a painful journey you've been on for sure. When I was reading your summary I was thinking "this guy is seeing someone else" and sure enough, you discovered the same thing. Your H is involved in an emotional affair, which is to say that his feelings for his co-worker have gone over the line and he's feeling "in love" with her and therefore not with you.

As you've probably read, this is always initially based on fantasy -- when people feel "in love" they put the object of their desire on a pedestal, don't see any negatives, and in fact will twist negatives into positives. I mean, the woman is pregnant with her third child, that should be a "don't mess with this person's marriage" flag to any rational person but your H is able to just pretend everything is okay.

So what can you do? As AnotherStander has pointed out, read the 37 rules and start getting really good at "act as if". A couple things to think about:

Your H's decision to wander usually arose from some level of resentment he was carrying around. Once he found himself over the line, the easiest thing to do is to exaggerate the resentment, and invent new things to be resentful about in order to justify the affair he is having. That's why they say "believe nothing they say" because a lot of it is just nonsense used to justify the affair.

That said, you want to avoid doing anything yourself that will make him resent you more. Blaming him, laying on guilt, publicizing his affair, all that stuff will make him resent you more and drive you apart, as will pursuing him.

He wants space from you right now, so if you fail to respect that and pursue him two things will happen (1) he will run further away, and (2) your value will diminish in his eyes because you are putting yourself in a "one down" position.

That is why "get a life" and "act as if" are so very important. They re-establish your value both to him and to yourself. You want to be the prize to be won.

The third tenant is "180" which is to say look at the things that bothered your spouse over the course of your relationship, determine which ones you want to change *for yourself* and then change them. If you're doing it to put on a show for him or as a device to get him back, he will see through it. 180 has to be for you, for real, and a long term commitment -- something you do when no one else is watching or acknowledging.

Your best course of action at this point is to be friendly and polite, but also to have your own life, which is to say go out and have fun!

Acc

[KGirl]

Thanks, AS and ACC.

AS - I read 5LL. Hard to know for sure since I can't ask H to take the test but I think he needs words of affirmation. There was a recurring theme of me not being supportive enough, appreciative enough, complimenting enough, encouraging enough, etc. when he told me why he wasn't happy. For example, in the fall he passed a very difficult test for work that people rarely pass on the first time, and he said I didn't seem happy for him - I wasn't telling him or others that I was proud of him. I kinda wasn't happy for him because for the 6 mo. he was studying for the test he was awful... he'd agree to do something with me and then as soon as we'd get there say "so how long do we have to do this? 'Cause I really need to get home and study". I started associating the test w/ negative things so it was really hard for me to be happy about it, since I felt so abandoned during it. I think, though, that this is something I can be better at without it being pursuing or needy? Complimenting him on his shirt, or thanking him for making dinner or shoveling snow, etc.

I'm scared at this point to let go/detach... I think it's because if I really do "move on", then that means I'm done and no longer interested in staying married... but the whole point of DB is trying to stay married! It feels conflicting. Seems like others feel similarly.

[KGirl]

Feeling super confused today. I'm trying my best to follow the rules, detach, and give him space, but it's like he's thwarting my every move! I go to watch TV in the other room, H comes in to watch with me because he wants to see that show, too. I go to the guest room (where I'm sleeping) to read a book, H comes in to ask me questions/show me a picture of the cat/tell me a random story about work. H says he's going to the grocery store, I say "OK, I'll plan to go later in the day" and he says "well why don't we go together to save a trip?" I don't know what to do besides live somewhere else! He's much nicer and spending more time with me almost than before the BD. I don't know what to make of it. I know I shouldn't mind read, but I wonder if these are "baby steps" that I keep reading about or if they mean nothing? I've avoided R talk since I pushed him to tell him about the apparent EA, and the only things he's said are that he plans to call a lawyer sometime "this week" to learn more about the process because he was "too busy" last week.

I'm also really struggling with not having a "plan". I've always been the "doer" or "planner", and to not have a plan is driving me crazy. I know I just need to let go and be patient, but part of me wonders if I'm living in a fantasy world by not taking steps to establish my independence/single life (like looking for an apartment, separating joint finances, etc.) Is "acting as if" I'm moving on more of an attitude than actually taking logistical steps?

[AnotherStander]

AS - I read 5LL. Hard to know for sure since I can't ask H to take the test but I think he needs words of affirmation.

Most men's PLL is PT, but that does not mean he doesn't respond to other LL's. Mine is PT, but I definitely respond to WoA as well. The things you described really struck a chord with me as these were areas my W was unsupportive in too. I have since learned through reading No More Mister Nice Guy that I was seeking too much affirmation from my W though. So when I read you say that your H thinks you were not being supportive enough, appreciative enough, complimenting enough, encouraging enough, etc. It makes me think that maybe hs is too codependent on you like I was on my W. So on the one hand you could do better in this area, but on the other hand this may be an indication of HIS unhealthy patterns that HE needs to address. For example-

in the fall he passed a very difficult test for work that people rarely pass on the first time, and he said I didn't seem happy for him - I wasn't telling him or others that I was proud of him.

HE should he happy for HIMSELF. It's a personal accomplishment, and his joy of completing it should come from within. Whatever praise he gets from others should just be icing on the cake, not a requirement for him to feel valued.

I think, though, that this is something I can be better at without it being pursuing or needy? Complimenting him on his shirt, or thanking him for making dinner or shoveling snow, etc.

Yes, exactly. Follow 5LL on this, don't just say "thanks for dinner". Say things like "I really enjoyed that dinner, I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you do things like this for me, you really are a great person."

I'm scared at this point to let go/detach... I think it's because if I really do "move on", then that means I'm done and no longer interested in staying married... but the whole point of DB is trying to stay married! It feels conflicting. Seems like others feel similarly.

Yes, people do feel that way because DB'ing is counterintuitive. Your mind is telling you to pursue, beg, plead, negoatiate, reason. Why? Because in a healthy marriage when there is conflict, those things are how you resolve the conflict. But those things DO NOT WORK in a broken marriage with a WAS. They just drive the WAS farther away.

but it's like he's thwarting my every move! I go to watch TV in the other room, H comes in to watch with me because he wants to see that show, too. I go to the guest room (where I'm sleeping) to read a book, H comes in to ask me questions/show me a picture of the cat/tell me a random story about work. H says he's going to the grocery store, I say "OK, I'll plan to go later in the day" and he says "well why don't we go together to save a trip?"

Those things are him pursuing you, and that is fine! You don't have to run away from him all the time. DB'ing is just about you not pursuing him. So don't follow him around like a puppy dog, but if he follows you then it's OK.

He's much nicer and spending more time with me almost than before the BD. I don't know what to make of it.

Nothing, have no expectations. He may be warming up to you, or it may mean nothing. After BD my W was exceedingly nice. She wanted to do stuff together as a family, eat together, travel together, etc. But whenever I asked about her future plans, she was still totally set on moving out and she did just that.

I'm also really struggling with not having a "plan". I've always been the "doer" or "planner", and to not have a plan is driving me crazy.

Yeah, that's me too. I wanted so bad to "control" the situation. But that just makes things worse. You have to let go of all control, remove all pressure, leave him to sort it out himself. I found patience that I never thought possible, and if I can do it than anyone can, that's for sure!

[KGirl]

So I was doing pretty well at being positive, acting as if I was moving on, etc. (even my IC commented that I was in a much better place than I was two weeks ago when I was last there) and was feeling really hopeful that H hadn't taken any actual action towards D yet (though no actions in the other direction either)...
and now I've had a major setback. Totally my fault. I was snooping (I know, I know.. scold me now) in H's work bag to see if he had the business card for the lawyer in there or something else that would point to a D... and found condoms in one of the inside pockets. They could very well be from a trip we took where he left right from work, or put there years ago, who knows. He has a tendency to leave random things like old movie tickets, gum wrappers, etc. in his various pockets for a long time and not notice them. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out if we would have ever gone someplace together where he'd take his work bag or have a reason to put them in there. But all I can think about now is that he's seeing someone after work or at work, like the person he's having/had the EA with. Even though logically it makes no sense because he's not going to work or coming home later than normal, and the "OW" if it even is that is married w/ two kids so it's unlikely he can sneak over to her place. Even though he's said after BD that there's no way he'd ever physically cheat on me because that goes against everything he stands for and I so want to believe him on that.

Clearly I can't confront him about it. How do I cope with this? Imagine the best case scenario (even though I could just be denying the truth) and that they're just there from some long-ago time that I can't think of? Is it normal male behavior to carry condoms around even if you don't have active plans to use them? Ugh... I feel sick. I don't know how long I can keep it in without asking him about it, so at least I know one way or the other.

[KGirl]

After sleeping on it I think I know the answer to my own question : ) Asking about my "find" is not going to get me closer to my goal of him coming around and wanting to make an attempt at fixing our M instead of walking away. There will be a time and a place later, if things do turn around, to ask this, but there's no point in asking now.

On another note, today I went to look at an apartment just to get some ideas and so I could feel like I was doing something to help myself if I suddenly couldn't take living in my house anymore. I told H I was leaving for an appointment, and that's it. When I got home..
Me: Shoot, I forgot to get a snow scraper for the car on my way home.
H: Where did you go?
Me: *pause* I went to look at an apartment
H: You went to an apartment to get a snow scraper? *joking tone*
Me: No, I was going to get it on the way back.
And then he just goes about like normal, or whatever that is nowadays. No "oh good, you should really find a new place to live" or "maybe you shouldn't do that yet" or questions about where it is or what it's like. Just nothing. Shouldn't there be SOME kind of reaction?! WAS's are confusing especially if they don't actually "walk away"... just stay where they are but say they don't want to be married.