And I just keep going...

[25yearsmlc]

I think the apologies are easy to categorize but we overlook the Path they can take. Like our growth and progress, theirs is not linear. Their realizations may lead to regret and that may lead to an apology, but it may take a year or 5, to realize the full extent of our mistakes or their impact, let alone to express our regret to the right parties...let alone that would suffice to them...

Like forgiveness, we can "conceive" of an idea, and then work on it, and then really truly feel it, and then later give birth to it in new ways of reacting or behaving. Lots of steps.

I don't see any selfish side to KG's hubby apologizing.

Oh sure It's not a full fledged "I'm all about awareness" deal, for sure. But he's beginning to wake up...

Not sure how brave he is in the awakening, and how much he is ever going to be willing to change...all that remains to be seen.

But I don't doubt he means well. I don't think it's coming from a selfish place.
In my opinion, the time for manipulation is over, OR not even here yet...


So KG, I don't see a reason for you to change your course of action (b/c frankly, it's working when we remind ourselves that the main goal of our work here is OUR work, and yours IS succeeding b/c you are becoming your better/best self and you are feeling more contentment...

not always, not consistently, but yes MORE...)

So I DO see reason for a bit of hope for improved relations as coparents...and for now that's probably the best we can hope for. Really, it is not a small thing.

um, Down the road, who knows? I would not spend energy on that now.

We don't know a thing about OW and your h, and that's OKAY.

We don't know about his work or salary...(though you could find out if you wanted to enough),

B/C what really matters is YOUR LIFE and how YOU ARE DOING
and from what you tell us here, you're moving forward. Like you should.


AND KG

Let's laugh together soon!

[BklynMom]

Amazing update. Sounds like you are doing great.

Although I am totally with 25 in her anti super woman stance I really think getting back to work was a huge step forward for my recovery. Being home with the kids was too hard for me.

I can't believe your h wrote those letters of acknowledgement. I heard at a meeting once that we need denial because if we could admit to ourselves all the things we have done to hurt people we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves. Seems like you h is slowly working through his deniAl.

[keep_going]

Hi guys,

Thanks again to everyone for stopping by and all the food for thought. I am lucky!

Bug, Busting, Bright Future - Thanks for the nice compliments - you are all so sweet and supportive!

You're a good person for not saying "but how can I put you on my insurance when we're not married?"

Acc - I am actually not such a good person... I initially added him because he is the father of my kids and I wouldn't want anything to happen to him health-wise and it really doesn't cost me more.

Yet, literally a week after I added him, the refund for last year's taxes arrived. (We filed as a married couple for the joint tax benefits - or so I thought...) Yet he took all the money and spent it all on repaying his personal cc debt w/o telling me about it. I was terribly hurt and called him out on it (not DB at all) I told him that for some things he wants to hold on to our married status, like health insurance or tax benefits, yet for others he acts like we are not. He claims all the money was his since I didn't work last year.
I guess we just see things differently and believe me - when that happened, I wished I had not added him to my insurance - lol...



Ad - Thanks for stopping by! I read every one of your updates - I learn so much from them and I love to see all your introspection.

I had a weird response to your story of H's apology. I thought, wow, if my H had 1/1,000,000,000 of the emotional depth and ability to articulate feelings that your H displayed in just his apology, maybe we would have been ok. Then - NO - maybe we're more hopeless than ever because even a guy that could say that is still not rushing back into his wife's arms to repair the marriage together.

I have fallen more into the second line of thinking - he is sorry for all the hurt he caused, yet his regret is not enough to make him have second thoughts, so the situation feels hopeless. I admit this is my own negative thinking acting as a defense mechanism. If I just mentally fall back to the worst possible scenario, I will save myself from hurt down the road. Not healthy, but human. (I believe Busting wrote about this on her thread not too long ago. That made me realize I fall into this negative thinking trap.)

By GAL now, you decrease the chance of finding yourself in that superwoman RUT again.

25- Thanks for all the advice. I hear you on the dangers of the superwoman thing. Look - there are certain things about my situation right now that I cannot change. One of them is the fact that I have to pay the bills and support my three kids on my own. So in a way, all single parents in a tough financial position are "superheroes". As for the GAL, trust me - I try to get in as much as my limited free time allows - socializing, movies, reading, going to the beach. I have also started cooking as a hobby, trying new things I have never done before.

The part that would be lacking is trying new activities and definitely exercising more - I still need to find the discipline to carve time out for that. Right now I prioritize by cultivating the relationships I already have and to which I really don't give that much of my time in the first place...

Apologies are good for sure but there are two kinds. Those that turn into new actions/ and those that are said.. just to be said.

Val! So good to hear from you!

I agree with you that time would tell what kind of apology I got from H.

Well, I found out the day after Thanksgiving that a) H indeed had broken up with OW for a couple of months. b) They are back together again.
I received another email from him just the day before I found out about this. It was unsolicited and the content and timing seemed suspect to me. I will update on that later, but his actions lately seem to indicate that he is sorry he hurt me, but not sorry enough to change his behavior.

I read somewhere that sometimes people apologize to appease their own guilt. They look for forgiveness from the hurt party to give themselves permission to continue with their behavior...

isn't it liberating to just let go of the anger? It is like a knot that gets tighter and tighter and then one day the knot just sort of unties itself and everything appears to be different.

2thep - Thank you for your post!
What you say about anger is so, so true... I have admitted before that my biggest deamon has been anger. Yes, it is liberating to take the bull by the horns and take control of what controls us. It will be a life-long fight for me and it's not always easy. The Thanksgiving holiday was a big test for me (more on that later). But I rode the wave and against all my instincts, I didn't act negatively on my hurt and everything I was feeling and that is a positive step! I feel much better now.

So KG, I don't see a reason for you to change your course of action (b/c frankly, it's working when we remind ourselves that the main goal of our work here is OUR work, and yours IS succeeding b/c you are becoming your better/best self and you are feeling more contentment...

AND KG

Let's laugh together soon!

I agree completely with the above, 25. Thanks for the support, and yes - we'll laugh together very soon!

BklynMom - Thank you for stopping by. I just caught up on your thread - I am sorry about the D, but you are doing an amazing job of moving forward with your life! I wish we lived in the same area - we could have play dates with our girls...


Hugs to you all!!!

[keep_going]

And now the update...

As I had mentioned, my R with H had dramatically improved in the last month or so. Last Tuesday we went out for dinner as a family again and took the girls to see Frozen. We all had a great time!

Then on Tuesday night he sent me another email:

"I really wanted to tell you how grateful I am for the effort you've made in our relationship. I must admit that I am still a bit surprised by the whole thing.
I know that I haven't always been cooperative the last few years and I wanted you to know (for the millionth time) that I'm so sorry for that. I am trying too. I'm trying to be straightforward and cooperative and open, while being sensitive to your feelings. I've hated always being suspect and closed off to you. I feel like that has changed a lot.
Seeing how much the kids appreciate our effort has been amazing for me.
I am so worried that things will fall apart at any moment and that we will be back to square one - whether it's spurred by me letting you down because I tend to screw up or even you hearing that the kids spent time with OW. The doubt is always in the back of my mind and I'm trying to let it go.
So there's one thing I wanted to bring up and at least acknowledge. The truth is that I struggle with wanting to be transparent with you so as not to "blindside" you, and I've also struggled with knowing that there's certain things about my life that you'd prefer I keep to myself.
It got me thinking that on the occasions that I do see OW, I feel silly and evasive sometimes just saying "I (we) have plans" in order to avoid the conversation, and in all honesty, I don't know what you want to know and what you don't. It's almost like we have developed this policy of "don't ask, don't tell" that usually causes its own problems.
Yet the bottom line is that it hurts you whether I tell you things or whether I hide them from you. In all truth, I think it's better that we don't talk about her, but I know that on the rare occasion the kids see her, you're going to hear about it from them anyways and then you'll feel like I hid it from you. So I just don't know what to do.
I want you to know that I'm not expecting a response (unless you want to), but I did want to at least acknowledge my ongoing dilemma. I'm not sure if there is a way to resolve it, but at least you know where I stand.
I am going to keep trying to be cooperative and open to you. I think it's the one choice that I seem certain about in my life right now. I hope you see that I'm trying."



I know my H - he is a conflict avoider and this was his way of telling me we was back with OW, without having to say it flat out. I wondered about the timing of the email as well. Well, the very next day (Wed) OW came to town and spent the day with my kids, baking pie for Thanksgiving dinner, which they spent at my MIL.

I found out about those events through my D6 and D5 on Friday morning, when H dropped them off. First thing they did when I opened the door was to excitedly start telling me all about Thanksgiving with Grandma and OW. They had brought the toys that OW had given them as presents.
Ouch... Ouch and ouch again...

First thing I did was hug them and then I handed the toys back to H and told the kids that it was better for daddy to take those toys back to his place so they would have something new to play with when they went back there...

What did I feel? Hurt, anger, disappointment and everything in between.

The realization that OW is back and forefront once again in my kids' life - that is the hardest. I don't know if that will ever get easier, but I really, really hope so.

Knowing that MIL has now welcomed OW to her house - when my kids are there - that hurts... A lot. Yes, I cannot control that and yes, it was a matter of time, but heck - it still hurts. That woman has been like a second mother to me and I have always been (and treated her) like a daughter. I know - blood is thicker and H is her son, so ultimately she needs to be supportive.

The whole toy thing - I think that was extremely insensitive of H. I know he didn't do it on purpose. In fact, I know it probably never crossed his mind. He just doesn't think about my feelings and is simply clueless, yet it was still insensitive.
It hits you hard, specially when you are not expecting it and it comes from the kids. No other choice but tough it out in front of them and pretend all is good.

And finally, knowing that they are back together. IDK, It's been three years, against all odds, long distance, with all the challenges in the world, yet they keep making an effort to make it work. I cannot predict the future, but the odds are simply just not good at this point.

The only thing I did was text H that I thought it was insensitive of him to bring the toys and that it hurt me. I also told him that his email from the night before now made sense to me.

He apologize for bringing the toys and agreed it was a bad move. He said he wants our R to continue to improve and be friends. I responded that I would continue to be polite and get along, but that at this point a friendship was not feasable to me. I added that there is no room for OW and me in his social life and that as long as she is in the picture, we cannot be friends.

Not DB at all, but that is the boundary that I set for myself many months ago. I tried unsuccessfully for a couple of years to try to be a friend for H, ignoring his R with OW. Every effort ended in setbacks and conflict, because in the end, I felt disrespected and taken advantage of. I know others are strong and can do that w/o feeling like their spouses are cake-eating, but the OW issue is a deal-breaker to me.

I know that to be at peace and not live with anger I will have to go dim with H as long as OW is in the picture. Probably won't save my M, but at least I can continue healing and that is all I can control for now.

IF and when she is gone - we'll see...

[JuneReN]

KG- good to hear from you (( ))

You know me, I am a big fan of doing what works for me. And if dim works for you, I am on board.

This is what I have come to know: DBing saves you. Saving the marriage is just a by product that sometimes occurs.

[Accuray]

KG,

As you may remember I had a front row seat for my sister's affair. That's still going on after 3 years as well -- they are both now divorced. The advice on this board about affairs is really not to fight it and wait for it to end. The affair is based in fantasy so presumably it's not a "real" relationship and is destined to fail.

What I've seen in my personal life is that sometimes that's true, but more often it turns into a "real" relationship with good and bad and can then last a really long time.

I think your policy of protecting yourself is the right way to go. Sorry for the ongoing challenges!

[labug]

(((k_g)))

You know I've said many times I don't know how I would feel if I were in your situation. But from where I sit, I think your H is being pretty sensitive or at least trying right now. Yes, the toy thing hurt but we all screw up and maybe he shouldn't have screwed up right then ... It's a big step for him to be vulnerable and put all this out there and try to work something out.

Would it help you to know when the kids are going to see OW? Have you thought about that?

I know that these events, whether an OW is involved or not, tend to make us question our own Okay-ness. "What's wrong with me that my S would leave?" They leave because of stuff in them. We stay because of stuff in us. You are an amazing, accomplished, beautiful woman who is succeeding despite the challenges. You have strength that is so strong and so deep. I do agree with 25, that you may try to hard to do everything. Sometimes we lose ourselves in that and we forget we actually have a life.

You have such a capacity for love and joy, I want you to experience that again.

You have a life waiting for you.

[25yearsmlc]

I don't have a lot to add to what others have said, except three things.

1) while you say you are not truly DBing when you resist being friends w/your ex h while there is an OW...

I see that two totally different ways.

On one hand, I say "wow, KG, no way. Since You cannot control who he sees, AND since he DID file for D, to him at least it's not as if he's "cheating" on you (these days most people believe him) and you are not under the same roof and finally,

why would you want to worsen things between you two, which only serves his need for OW more"....??


OTOH,

IF your bottom line was that it just feels too much like cake eating to you, and right or wrong, that's YOUR boundary...and you're certain, then all I can say
"okay"...so be it.

If it's really true that you simiply cannot muster whatever it takes to keep things improving between you two, b/c of OW, then that's the risk you know you are taking and that's it.

I think you know what you need to do to protect yourself.
So do it. If it works, who are we to say otherwise? None of us are perfect DBers. I can't even read my old posts without getting mad at myself for prolonging the "WHY???" and the "HOW COULD HE?" endless questioning which kept me stuck for far too long...

The other comment I wanted to address was about your MIL having OW over to her house. I know you felt betrayed. But think about what HER choices were....

KG, I am one of 9 children and there have been several times I and my siblings (and parents) have had to meet the new OP in our sibling's lives.

NOT ONCE has it been "easy" or enjoyable for us to meet OPs.


We usually wince, take a breath and make the best of it. We also often pity the new OP b/c we know THEY know we're not "in favor" of them. Which stinks for them...

For instance, My oldest brother left a WONDERFUL woman who felt like a sister to me. She's "W1" of my brother. He left her in '98 and their divorce was finalized a few years later. I urged her to seek her own counsel (my brother said HE could do THEIR divorce and he was insulted by my advice to her to get her own L. That hurt MY brother's feelings! (Talk about cray cray crazy)...

Well my x sil and I are still in touch and probably spend more time together than my b brother and I do. We vacation together. I very much like her new h (11 years now).


W1 (my former sil) is now remarried and has a h who better understands her and loves her better than my brother ever could have.

Knowing that she is genuinely happier, helps me.

But don't ever assume that because we "tolerate" meeting OPs, that we like them, let alone prefer them!

We do our best to accept what our siblings do, and in my family, we do speak our minds at some point. And we did. We ALL told my brother he was making a "huge mistake" and he would "never do as well" with any OW as he had with his wife1. But at some point we had to stop beating a dead horse.

AND you know what? In a way we were wrong, b/c my oldest brother is NOT a very good or attentive h.

He does not want a very close (="demanding") r with a wife. He wants a woman wife low/no expectations of him except fidelity.

He likes to get his family fix when he wants it, like a day a week, or less, and then wants to be a single guy in other ways. He won't cheat, he's just self centered and very into his career and multiple hobbies.
For W1, he was a lousy h. She wanted someone to help raise their d, she wanted a partner who would give as much as he took, or try to...

He's witty, he's well read and he treats my mom well. But he's ALWAYS been a lazy person when it comes to relationships...he "needs" a low maintenance wife, whereas his first wife wanted a partner. So to tell you the truth that's probably why w1 is happier now, and my brother MIGHT be....I can't tell.

He'd never admit in a million years that he had made a mistake.

Don't assume that your ex's family has been thrilled with OW. They may have been thrilled with their break up, and may have hoped to God that you were to return. Imagine how their hopes were dashed when he told them the "good news"...

I cannot tell you how many holidays were negatively affected by having to meet another new person one of my single brothers was dating.

To this day, I miss my former SIL...and a part of me is always going to be disappointed in my brother for leaving her, even though she assures me she is happier.


These days my former SIL and her h, and my brother and his w2, are able to attend events for their daughter.

Last month my ex sil went to visit my niece in DC at her new job. My niece has been living with her dad, (my brother and his w2) and their baby girl.

My niece is there for a year internship. My x sil stayed with them! And it went well.p

That may be unusual but hey, I have seen it. It can happen.

And knowing my x sil is happier, helps me a lot.

You will get there too. With or without your h.

But try not to be so hurt that your mil "accepted" OW into her home. It's not that she accepted her, it's that she is dealing with the reality that her son has made a bad choice and your mil is stuck with it.

That's how my mom and siblings see my older brother's choices...we just do our best not to have a scene and to "welcome" the new person.

I actually feel a sense of loss at times, even now. So do my sisters.

I bet no one at your MIL's house was "Happy" to see OW and NOT see you.
No wonder she brought presents for your kids...
Your in laws miss you and they have to hide it from OW and to an extent, from their son/brother.

IMO, there's No way did they not think of you and miss you. NO way.

They have their own loss to face b/c of your h's choices. Just another dimension of the damage done b/c when a divorce happens and families are re arranged, there are more than just two parents who get affected.

Well, enough said. Back to YOU and some GAL...we're working on it!

((( )))

[NLW]

K_G,

Our Hs are working to the same script - timelines are similar, and family dinners have recently resumed (on his invitation) in the last month in my case too. And OW is still on the scene.

Resumption was short-lived however, as XH seemed to find it too hard to deal with, and cracked - BIG TIME.

So, setbacks and conflict are still the modal form of interaction for us, too.

Like you, I found MIL's apparent acceptance of OW at family gatherings to be like another betrayal.

But reading 25's post about what it's like from the family's perspective made me realise that they have little choice.

25's words really helped me come to terms with this aspect of the whole mess.
I so hope it helps you too.

Dim is good; don't get sucked back in too soon.

[keep_going]

Hi friends,

I have not posted for a while...
Thanksgiving came and went. And even though there were a couple of tough days, I overcame them faster and easier than before. I take that as yet another positive sign that I am healing. And so I am grateful for that.

And life is back to normal, which in my case, is full speed.
I have been super busy, but in a good way.
Before DB (and part of the reason why I found myself here), I had a full plate and a longer list than I could tackle. I wanted to be a great mom, a great wife, friend, daughter, sister, professionist - everything. And so something had to give and it was my marriage...

This time, I am being very aware and very present IN THE MOMENT. The most important part, is that I am choosing how to spend my time. I am prioritizing and making decisions that are good for ME and my kids.

It has been amazing. I enjoy the people I am with, I do things better and it keeps my focus away of negative thoughts. I like staying busy (and how can you not with three young ones to support and a full-time job?) Yet I make sure not to overdo it and to remain true to my life priorities (which I was not doing before). I make sure my actions match my values and I am overall much happier.

I am getting ready for a trip to my home country with the kids. We have not been there in two years (due to financial reasons) and so I am proud that I saved enough to make it happen. We will be surrounded by all people who love us, who will pameper us and my kids will have 10 wonderful days filled with fun and friends and cousins and aunts and uncles. We get together for Xmas every other year, gathering between 40-50 people on Xmas eve... All the people I grew up with and which make me feel loved and valued.

It will be AMAZING!
So I probably won't be logging in much until after the new year, but I want to send everyone a huge hug and wish everyone the best for this holiday season, with one wish: make the best of it.


My H dropped the bomb and left on December 23rd of 2010. Yes, just the day before Xmas eve. I don't remember hardly anything of that holiday. I just have this image of me sitting at my parents' living room, looking out at nothing, like a zombie. I cannot even remember what the girls were doing (and I was just 9 weeks pregnant with my son at the time).
I thought I'd never be able to smile again, enjoy Xmas or any other holiday for that matter and I literally didn't see a point to continue.
Yet look at me now...

So my point? Even the deepest well has a way out, even the strongest pain will start to diminish - IF YOU CHOOSE TO.

Early on I read one of the vets post "I am grateful this happened to me" and I almost threw up. I thought I'd NEVER be able to say that.

Yet, now I have to say that I am also grateful for this most painful experience. Why? Because sadly I realize now that if something this big and definite and painful and devastating had not happened to me, I would have never woken up to how messed up I was and how angry and hurt I was and how so out of control my life was... Do I wish I didn't lose my H? You bet - I still love him like I did 20 yrs. ago, but I don't know that anything else would have shaken me enough to change. Yes, life dishes painful lessons, but without them, we would not be able to appreciate the happy moments and make good choices for ourselves.


Yes, this experience has and continues to be brutal in so many ways, yet it is AN OPPORTUNITY to exercise CHOICE and CHANGE and BE IN CONTROL of our lives.


And so I CHOOSE to do so. Happy Holidays!!