I realize you were a little "fired up" in your initial post to me. I can appreciate that.
Thanks for your compliments regarding my taking ownership of my faults and contributions to the current state of my M. And also the progress I'm making in transforming myself into a great husband and father.
I clearly understand that there are many pieces to this puzzle that only my W can provide. Unfortunately, she is currently very distracted with her A with this OM. I think the evidence is clear and vast that while a WAS is involved in an A, it's virtually impossible to convince them of anything that has to do with recommitting to their marriage at that time. I think you'll agree that until this infatuation runs its course and there are very clear and plausible reasons to reinvest oneself into rebuilding a marriage that was very dissatisfying, the most advantageous thing I can do is strengthen my cause by demonstrating that I can change and I am a much better alturnative to the OM.
It seems that many WAS admit that while they were caught up in their affairs, they always knew it wouldn't last, but the draw was so strong for relief of their pain and emptiness within their own marriages.
You mentioned that MWD encourages abandoning cheesless tunnels, efforts that don't work. HS, it's only been 64 days since I found out about this A!! And just recently, my wife actually admitted that she is seeng a new husband develop that she doesn't know what to make of. MWD also does not advocate confronting a WAS about their affair.
I'm encouraged by her observation. I'd say that is a positive sign and I'm going to continue to demonstrate those behaviors that are getting her attention.
It's taken 10 years to get where we are. It's got to take more than 64 days to develop into the husband and father my family deserves. I think if I start making demands now, the results would be less than ideal. But when the time comes, I will reread your post and benefit from your experience.
Thanks again.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
In DB language, we usually use all of the techniques first, and THEN the last resort technique.
Because it can end your marriage, but it is also often effective, when most everything you're doing looks like a desperate ploy--it's a strong 180.
But sometimes you are left with not the end of the marriage and still no marriage. That is the AFTER the last resort technique. That has to be when you have decided to end your marriage, but you are willing to leave your partner a crack to shape up or ship out. In this instance, it isn't likely to work. And yet some have had some success because of it, and some in spite of it. Exposing the affair falls into this realm and DB does NOT recommend it all because it is most likely to irreparably end your marriage. I've seen it over again.
Better than this, Starsky is very good at explaining boundaries. So are some of the other vets.
The best parents teach boundaries to their children. The best parents are really giving that boundary to themselves--when you do this, you can count on, with love, that I will behave in this manner because your boundary is unacceptable to me.
The best parents start with responses that are light but undesired, less game time, less of this, etc, It is not a 3 week grounding from all pleasure.
The other DB techniques help with this...change the what, the who, the how, the time. Play with other consequences before ever thinking about exposure. Look to hit her where she needs it, but that is shy of essential $ and humiliation. But you can certainly make thinggs less easy. Ensure you never reward her for bad behavior.
It all depends on what you can abide. If you cannot abide continued, unrepentant infidelity in your spouse, than this is what I would call a "Boundary of Personal Integrity," and you would lay it at the outset. If you lose your spouse over this, then well you haven't really lost anything, because it (adultery) is something you could not have abided anyway. To use the child analogy, it would be like if your child were playing with kerosene and matches in their bedroom at night -- do you start with lighter punishments, or do you come down swiftly, since their behavior is absolutely something that cannot continue?
In cases of minor marital difficulties, or even major ones with no infidelity, I don't think an after-the-LRT or event he LRT is called for. If there is infidelity, I've seen the LRT work very well and in the case of unrepentant, continued infidelity -- esp. when the betrayed spouse knows about it, and the cheating spouse KNOWS that you know -- I think a strong case for the after-the-LRT can be made.
But it all depends on what he betrayed spouse's own core, non-negotiable Boundaries of Personal Integrity are.
btw, I have no problem with the betrayed spouse articulating their "I will not share my spouse in an open marriage" stance, but then continuing in the marriage for some period of time, while they work on their own changes and so long as they enforce certain boundaries (example: "no using our family's internet connection to text OM/OW from inside our marital home," or "no squandering of family finances on your affair"). In this case, the betrayed spouse is giving their marriage every chance they can muster, working on the changes they know that THEY need to make, and they are communicating to their cheating spouse only "I don't want a divorce, but I won't wait for you forever to end your affair." (NEVER actually COMMUNICATE your own internal deadline to your wayward spouse, because if you tell them "I will give it 6 months," you've just basically given your blessing for them to cheat on you for 179 days, at which point they will come to you and promise you the moon and the stars to give them another chance).
This is what worked for me; again, others have to decide for themselves. And dbmod is also correct in that you can't really work the steps BACKWARDS: if you've immediately gone to the after-the-LRT or even the LRT, you can't then back off and take the lighter steps.
In summary, can it (after-the-LRT) end your marriage? Yup. So you should only use it if the marriage in its current form is something you cannot abide anyway, as a matter of core personal integrity.
Sorry for the sidebar philosophical discussion, DD. If you can use any of that, great . . . hopefully others that follow your sitch will get some food for thought as well.
I only articulate what worked for me, and I tend to focus on the part of the equation that's NOT being discussed much on someone's thread. Often, that's the "harder stance," as it's pretty much unanimous that GAL, 180s, working on your own changes, etc. are needed in just about every sitch.
Most of my posts articulate some of these stronger stances, like the whole "boundaries" thing, but my own journey to save my marriage was fully consumed by parallel paths: one of a strong legal/financial/boundary stance, the other of consistently working my own changes and living those out in front of my wayward wife.
That means sucking it up. Taking it in the teeth. Is that weakness? Really? It's actually the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I don't know the deatils of your situation, but I do know watching my W walk in the door, knowing she was with the OM and accepting it for now, takes a lot more strength than you may think. I need to prove myself to her. Granted, her choices right now are wrong, but they're her choices. I need to work as hard as I can to encourage her to choose me again!
I could respond differently. I could be emotional, angry, demanding and draw lines in the sand, but I don't think I've earned that yet. . .
Man, there is a gullllllf of water between THOSE two extremes, DD! Nearly all the successful approaches I've seen over the years have plowed the fertile middle ground in one way or another.
FTR, no one is advocating "emotional" or "angry" here. On the contrary.
I am in agreement with you regarding the setting of boundaries and standing by those boundaries.
However, there may be some misunderstanding regarding the status of my sitch. I am aware of my W affair. She has no idea that I am aware of it. I discovered it 7/16/13. So, at this point, how could she assume I'm ok with an open marriage or her A in general.
This is the biggest and most significant chanllenge of my life. I realize I only have one shot at addressing the A for the first time. When I do that, I want my wife to have had the benefit of observing what can be our relationship in the future, should she choose to recommitt to our marriage.
With all the knowledge I've gained in reading DR and participating in this online community, I don't think it's a wise move to disregard critical facts such as the "affair fog". If my W isn't in a frame of mind to think rationally, why would I want to pursue that route? I want to lowest risk possible of pushing her into OM arms! I believe time is a benefit to me at this point.
I am not a weak man. I'm a thoughtful man. I prefer to process all the information I have before making a decision or taking action that cannot be reversed.
I think by demonstrating to my W, over several months, that I can change and am doing so on my own accord, seeking therapy to help me improve my personality issues and attempting to make me the man only a fool wold leave is the best option I have at convincing her to rejoin me and sever her relationship with OM.
I cannot control my W. I can only provide her with what she has asked for over the years. A kinder, loving, patient and considerate husband for her and father to our boys.
Calling her out this early in my personal project would not achieve the desired results.
At this point, I can only dream of successfully rebuilding my marriage as you have. Congratulations to you. That is a true achievement.
Thank you for your advice and input on my sitch. Please continue to provide your insight, as I find it all very valuable during this troubling and challenging time.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
That's very good advice! The challenge will be findind something that my W "needs" from me. At this point, she really shows no need for me at all. Not in a rude sense, but just goes about her days independently.
Any advice or examples of what you're referring to?
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
I really appreciate your input. It is a very valuable perspective. I realize that calling out a spouse involved in an affair is certainly an option. I have two young boys to consider and I just don't want them to go through the damaging process of their parents splitting up. I would never leave this marriage. It may be taken from me someday, but I won't be the one to walk away. My W on the other hand is in a state that I could have never imagined 10 years ago. I don't know this person.
If there is anything I can do to gradually show her that I can be a better husband and father, I've got to demonstrate that. Words mean nothing. I've tried that. I believe that if I expose the A, it will cause W to become angry, resentful, bitter and take action prematurely.
I need time to mentally prepare for that as well. This is my life, afterall. This is the woman that in my mind, would be the one I would grown old with. Removing that from the equation is alot to consisder.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
However, there may be some misunderstanding regarding the status of my sitch. I am aware of my W affair. She has no idea that I am aware of it. I discovered it 7/16/13. So, at this point, how could she assume I'm ok with an open marriage or her A in general.
That does change the dynamics quite a bit -- thanks for clarifying that for me.
I'm still inclined to try to do whatever is possible to kill an affair as soon as possible ("separate the addict from the source of their addiction"), just due to all of the legal, financial, emotional and even medical harm that each continued week of infidelity can wreak on the family. But it does change the whole "she's losing respect -- and therefore attraction -- for me, because she sees I'm not trying to stop her" dynamic.
I don't think you can have it both ways, though: if you believe strongly enough in PEAs and the "affair fog" (and I do), then it seems to me that you'd be doing everything rational in your power to separate her from the source of her addiction. You seem to be taking a position of "This is a horrible thing she is going through, but I'm going to let her go through it while I work on myself, because I've been such an a$$ in the past." I just don't get that, but it IS your prerogative.
Q: Why do you assume that "pushing her into OM's arms" is necessarily a bad thing?
Right now (and especially since no one knows of their affair), they get to enjoy all of the romance, mystery and intrigue of their illicit relationship, unencumbered. It is a FANTASY they are living, and they THINK they have found their "soulmate."
We all know that soulmates have bad days, and foul moods, and bad breath, and kids that are underfoot, and body odor, and money problems, and . . .
Well, you get the idea. Just food for thought. There are a ton of reasons why a betrayed spouse should want to keep a wayward spouse in the marital home with them (her own personal safety, being able to "live out your changes" in front of her, etc.) . . . but "I don't want to drive them into each other's arms" shouldn't be one of them, in my opinion. Often once they see each other as they truly are -- warts and all -- the fantasy fades quickly. ESPECIALLY once their affair is out in the open (please note I am notadvocating exposure here, as that is against DB principles).
