Newbie: Quick Assessments of my SIT?

[whizzed]

Hi, would love for any feedback/comment/mutual support from this wonderful community on my SIT. New to forum, been reading and applying many DBing/180 principles I've picked up so far. Want to stay on track till get MWD's book, since W's EA popped back up and now with secret phone:

- M 2000, estranged/silent for almost decade. We know why.
- 12/12 had first real convo about whether to end or try. I said yes. She said no longer love long time; revealed "feelings for someone else." Only limited OM contact to that point; coffee breaks & lunch at workplace, but probably no face time outside work.
- But still conclusion "he's my mirror" while simultaneously admitting at diff points that she doesn't really know him and they're culturally so different, “can never work, don’t want that in my life.” Seems like silly infatuation to me.
OM is senior doctor, she was cafe worker.
- We still agreed to try.
- Thru 12/12 to 6/13 some good steps forward (as couple and as family w/ 9yo S), some bad steps back. But both (I now understand after finding this site) have been slowly piecing past few months. Think she maintained NC, but never stopped thinking about OM.
- 6/28/13 last day work at current employer, OM sent person to say “he still likes you, but doesn’t know what to do.” (Reminded me of high school). That night and next day she totally changed. I knew something happened. So snooped (yes, know now that’s wrong.) "It all came back" for her – and now she was trying to set up dates.
- I admitted to snooping, and calmly expressed my surprise and hurt since she gave many signals that she/we were doing so well. Ended by me saying she needed to figure out on her own or she'd always wonder, and her asking for space to "please let me do that in my own way." Later that evening, after talking with friend, "it's not you it's me. It's pretty much over bt us. If it's not [this OM] it will be someone else." WTF, felt like put out for trash on a whim!
-6/28/13 to 8/12/13 lots of positve family time/vacation/piecing. I never mentoined OM again. She asked at one point, "are you in?" Yes I said, are you? Yes she replied. Twice last week reached to hold my hand for first time in years and years--wow!
- 8/12 put her credit card back in her wallet (she asked me to get her gas) and found OM's business card and secret cell. I asked her "thought that was over" very calmly. She freaked with old profanity/anger. I left to breath, and returned calmy said 180ing that "you can call me horrible names and ef-ing this, but I'm not going to get angry. I'm not doing that with you anymore. I did nothing wrong. I think I've handled myself pretty well thru this whole thing -- I haven't gotten angry with you, or yelled, or complained or even mentioned it. I've conducted myself with integrity. You can be angry if you want." And I went to bed.
- That did throw her off. Made her do a 180 as next day she showed no anger and returned right back to where we were -- pleasant, talking, doing stuff, yet with cool reserve and careful distance. What's not 180 for her though is rug sweeping.

Any back of envelop reactions/advice? The secret phone put all the fear back. THANKS FOR ANY MORAL SUPPORT -- GREAT HAVING A SAFE COMMUNITY TO CONNECT WITH.

[MagicJack]

I'm new to your situation and to the divorce busting concept, but I did recently find out that my wife was carrying on with secret relationships with ex boyfriends and also a new EA that she tried to leave me for before I exposed it and caused her great shame. She was sorry and willing to change for a few weeks before deciding I was too controlling and wanting to file for an immediate divorce. I think in a month once this is over she will try to be with the EA guy. If that's the way it goes, so be it.

I don't know why you are being so gentle with her about this. Is this a 180 for you and did you deal with anger problems before? I went overboard with my angry reaction to my wife's lies and cheating, which might have pushed her away.

When you found the phone did you give it back to her?

Have you set boundaries? It sounds like she is on the fence and waiting to see if this other doctor guy is going to come through for her, and using you as a safety net in the meantime. She will act like she loves you, but she is pining for him.

[censored] to hear i know.

My own wife told me 1.5 weeks before telling me she wanted a divorce that she loved me and would never divorce and was committed to me.

I think if you have any chance at this you need to show her that she can't walk all over you and "cake eat" as they say. She cannot have a secret cell phone that you don't know about, and must go NC with him or else she is out. I don't know if you want to expose this to others around you if she has family/friends with good values, but it might be something to consider.

I don't think you succeeded in accomplishing anything by telling her you would be the better person and not react when you caught her and she threw a fit. She suffers no consequence, and I don't think turning the other cheek is going to help much here since she is acting out of selfish reasons.

I don't think she is really committed to this R, just committed to keeping her life stable while she explores options with OM. I know you have a kid. maybe a 180 would be standing up to her and shutting her down, getting rid of the secret phone, and enforcing boundaries with consequences. She should know what she stands to lose imo.

But that's just my .02 and what the hell do I know anyway?

[MileHigh]

Well, whizzed. You've said your piece, and she knows where you stand, and you know about the OM. So, if you want to proceed/continue with DBing, there's no need to confront her further. It's very hard to stop snooping - it was hard for me. I was counting the minutes, then days, without looking at text usage on cell phone account. It gets easier with time.

The WAS needs to make their choice, on their own, and there is often a lot of confusion and reversals in their opinion and reactions toward the LBS. That's why consistency is so important. Every time she sees you, you have to be on track - even if you have to fake it until you make it at first.

I recommend The Divorce Remedy over Divorce Busting, but both are good. Definitely read/study the book. The forum is good as a supplement to the book, but I think the book is essential.

[sandi2]

Whizzed, what are the ages of you and W? Have either of you been M before?

This silent decade in the M, was this something that grew worse with time as the R died, or did it happen all at once? You hint that something occurred to cause it.

There has to be something that keeps the two of you together. What did you get out of staying in a dead M? What did she get from it? Dr. Phil says people get some kind of payoff, or they would continue doing it. It may have been too expensive to separate, or whatever, but for some reason the two of you have spent a miserable decade under the same roof. Why?

2/12 had first real convo about whether to end or try. I said yes. She said no longer love long time; revealed "feelings for someone else."

Who initiated the conversation? A man usually wakes up when he gets the news that W is interested in someone else. So, was she the one who brought up the MR?

I recommend you do some research on the Internet about EA's and something called PEAS. If you aren't familiar with it, it could enlighten you as to why your W bounces back & forth with OM.

It is really hard to revive a dead marriage. It's much easier to start a new R than revive the old one. MWD says to start with a beginner's mind toward your MR. It's not easy to do when there have been so many years estranged, and especially if both of you are willing to put everything into starting over. Whatever it takes.

You each will have plenty of challenges, but they may not be the same. A part of her may know that she's chasing a dream in this "doctor", but it is feels really good to her ego...and she doesn't seem to have the strength to end everything (emails, phone numbers, etc., that supply contact information) b/c her emotional part wants to hold on to the fantasy.

I hope you will read up on it, b/c you need to understand what she's dealing with (and what you're dealing with). You may look up some of posts from Starsky to get a better idea of your part and what to do.

It takes a long time, and it's probably the hardest thing you've ever done to get through to the other side. However, your M can survive this and you & W can have a real R with each other.

[whizzed]

Thank you so much MJ, MH, and Sandi! You've all given me very useful perspective, input and challenges to consider.

Just replying now because spent Labor Day weekend camping with family -- it went very well:. . . Me: 37 rules are increasingly becoming second nature, though patience, "as if", and stopping measuring her mood are still challenging at times. And it IS working. She: Definitely verbal and non-verbal signs moving closer to me--genuine hugs (long absent), high fives when we accomplish task together, lots of smiling/laughing/talking, catching ourselves at outset of old silly annoyances that used to escalate (she get’s trigger easily and I used to engage). While hiking we got to talking about life/spirituality in general, wherein she told me about, and asked me to carry out, her last wishes (cremation and what to do with her ashes) if she goes first. What this said to me is that she's coming back to seeing life together. I'm pretty familiar with her moods/personality, so I feel pretty confident that, at least for the moment, that her "energy" (which is something that emanates from her pretty strongly) is positive and directed toward trying a new us. But I’m still “cautiously optimistic”. I don’t want our old relationship back at all cost. Going forward with MY life, I want a relationship that includes real affection and intimacy. It remains to be seen whether she will be able to do that.

Okay, don’t want to make this quick update too dense, so will reply to your great replies separately.

[whizzed]

Thanks for your reply. It really did help. As I imagined doing what you suggested, and playing out what would transpire if I confronted her and drew these lines in the sand, I realized that -- in my situation, with her -- I'm on the right track. Doing so would have had the opposite effect of what I'm trying to accomplish by following very closely the 37 rules. It would have started a volcano of a fight and nothing productive would have come from it. It would have sent her back miles from me, and up to her room with mr. nice guy just a text/call away. And as I said, I know she was completly surprised by the way I acted (non-REACTIONARY), telling her that I've made the choice not to continue the old, shared "figure eght" dance of unhealthy anger and conflict with her. She could be angry and mean all by her lonesome. That was my new, healthy boundry. This also relates to our history and my thoughts about context and status of EA, which Sandi is drawing me out on below.

[whizzed]

Thank you. Very helpful confirmation. I've gone a couple weeks now from being obsessed with snopping and checking phone records, etc, to ZERO snooping. I feel so much happier and healthy, for ME! I'm proud of myself because I was sooo hooked into it, and it was so harmful to me, to GAL, and to my effort to see if we can save our m. If I hadn't been snooping all this time -- and filling in a lot of blanks about what I "discovered" -- I think we'd be much further along. Yes, CONSISTENCY. Great reminder. (I'm reading DB book now.)

[whizzed]

sandi, I've read a bunch of your posts, so I'm grateful that you've weighed in for me too. I hesitate to reply, because the answers are long. Sorry. You of course don’t need to read this whole saga.

Me: Turn 50 this month. First 10-year M ended badly, D final 2000. Two girls, 18 & 21 with EW.

She: 42. 1st marriage. M 2001, together 1999. S born 2004.

Our M deteriorated over time. Here’s the gist of major contributing factors:

Began with intense emotional and physical romance. It was love.

Strain and stress began early on after marriage. Top factor was I was still in emotional crisis, desperate to preserve good relationship with my 2 girls, against a vindictive EW who couldn’t put her kids needs above her own and did many things consistently to undermine my time and attachment with my girls. So my new wife lived with a depressed guy whose focus was elsewhere. I ignored her a lot, and always put the kids first. She also hates being pressured or forced to do anything. She did help me realize some years ago, but after much damage, that I was always pressuring/forcing her to do more as a “family.” And when she didn’t do what I wanted/expected, I now see that my inner child would come out, being needy and petulant. (Wow, it’s therapeutic just putting this in writing.) At the same time, I couldn’t see it because in other parts of me i saw a very good person –attentive father, do vast majority of domestic work and many traditional mothering roles, never stopped trying to express my love/desire for loving marriage, work hard, help others…but a caretaker, people pleaser, rescuer.

For her part, she too was not prepared for these circumstances. She’s not a communicator. I’m hard pressed to think of an occasion where she initiated a discussion about our relationship. And whenever we did try to talk, it quickly went badly. She'd withdraw, act passively bitter, while trying to hold everything in until she exploded in some days/weeks/months/even years depending on the event with extreme anger, gaslighting. (At lighter moments we can joke about “the beast” that lurks inside and her short fuse, not just with me but anyone.) She can also be a constant knit-picker and hyper critical. I could never seem to do anything right. Everything was my fault it seemed. A wrong word or suggestion, seemingly inoffensive or commonplace, could set her off. She grew up in poverty in Brazil with an extremely dysfunctional family situation. She survived terrible emotional, and some physical(non-sexual) abuse from her mother, father, siblings, and aunt who she was sent away to live with. She was the outsider who was crucified for not participating in, and eventually leaving, the dysfunction. She grew up without love, empathy, support or affection. Everybody’s problems – and EVERY problem -- was someone else’s fault.

But we were and remain drawn to each other. To heal one another might be a reasonable, standard conclusion. But there was/is something more. Can’t speak for her, but I deeply admire her strength and independence. She got scared off, but we did have a deep, unique emotional bond and attachment. Can’t put it into words, but an intense attraction to the beauty inside. (My unhealthy rescuer element was always forcing her to show it more, and in the awful circumstances above that made it impossible. That said, we also endured all these years because of fincial circumstances.

Almost all of the circumstances and behaviors I describe above are gone now. Through lots of personal work and IC, I have addressed my neediness and dependency. In her own private, internal way, I’ve seen a lot of changes in her too since last December. She’s trying, though she still doesn’t talk to me about her issues/struggles. Though after yet another big blow-up with one of her sisters over the weekend, she asked me to help her find and IC! Never in a million years would I have guessed she’d be willing to take this kind of personal responsibility.

I initiated the convo in Dec about “needing to decide if were going to work or divorce,” where she revealed EA. My emotional side had all the angry responses. But my rational mind understood how this could happen given our estrangement. It must have been nice for someone to make her feel interesting and special again. I’d be a hypocrite to say I’d not carry on a flirting conversation with a woman in these circumstances.

So she has a "secret phone" and his business card. I told her last June that she needed to figure out the EA. What did I expect?? Would I be happier if she was using her family plan phone that I pay for and seeing all the calls? Of course not. She said, "let me do this in my own way." Maybe she didn't want to expose me to it. The phone could be a tiny act of, albeit hurtful, compassion.

I’ve been reading about EA/PEAs and hope and trust that she’ll come out of the fog and back to reality with determination to see if we can save our M. Feels to me like that's the current direction. But I'm starting to internalize and embrace the "as if." My 50's WILL be happy years, with or without her. Though I don't pretend any direction will be easy.

Sorry for the tome.