WAS Moving out date 1 May 2012

[Rockwallaby]

JOURNAL

I am not sure how to proceed. My stbx has complained since wanting to separate that my communication has badgered her to agree.

When she said she wanted to give it a try at R I was too familiar and putting problems aside.

When I have tried pulling back and detaching and she will ask why I am not communicating and being civil and say I do not care.

She will not say she is still seeing OM but equally will not commit to NC. If she is still in the fog are the 180's a wast of time? Should I just go dark and detach focus on GAL and ignore her attempts to start a fight.

I am very confused as to the best strategy as her arguments are inconsistent, when it comes to lawyers she is not willing to make the clean cut, separate financials and formalise childcare arrangements. This leave me thinking that she is still unsure, but is perhaps unfounded optimism on my part.

[~ kd ~]

As you posted above, that your W indicated that you had not communicated with her, so it solidified her reason to leave, yet you suspect if you HAD communicated with her, she would have seen that as pressure and used that as the reason she was leaving...

Is certainly quite likely.

We will often refer to the WAS "testing" the LBS. In suggesting that, it sometimes isn't obvious that these tests... they aren't necessarily conscious or intended. What is happening is, the WAS behaviour is "more of the same" and they expect from the LBS "more of the same". This dynamic is what keeps things either stuck or progresses the sitch to worse.

When the LBS changes the dynamic by not responding with or as "more of the same", it confuses the WAS. Their normal (human normal, to change) is to be upset about this change. They lash out, say or do something, that brings "normal" back. Often, pushing the LBS buttons in order to get things back to "normal".

By being detached or disinterested to her either leaving or staying, will confuse her and cause her to react as she did. In your case, she said you did not communicate. And as you suspect, if you had brought it up before, a response of possibly "You can't control me and I will do what I want".

Let your W lead on any movement towards D. Just be sure that things may come up that you may need to protect yourself around. You can deal with those as they come up, rather than worrying about them right now. They may... or may not... happen.

I need to show I am detached and do this in a way that is not emotional. Any advice?

Your statement is contradictory. If you ARE detached, it will NOT be emotional. Detaching begins with not being emotionally attached to an outcome. Get yourself used to a possible reality that your M may actually end. Work through what ever emotions you have. This will help you become detached from that possible outcome which in turn will allow you to be less attached to anything she may say or do, towards that end, in the future.

She will see NC as being rude, and try to bait me that we need to maintain a relationship going forward for the children. I don't want to get I an argument or act unnaturally, I guess I need to learn to e pleasant without saying too much.

My W was master at encouraging me to engage her in comm, which then led to a result of me ultimately becoming defensive because I felt the comm turned around to point at me as the "bad guy".

It was not just a feeling I had, as it was my W using absolutes like "you never" or "you always" or taking score, even of things that I had since made better and stopped doing.

Your detachment will allow you to enter into comm with her and when leading questions such as "what's wrong" are brought up, you will be sincere when you say, "nothing for me. I'm doing great. How about you?"

Also, the "awkward silence" after such a sincere response from you, is OK. At that point, simply move along in a pleasant way and keep your PMA up, using GAL as much as possible.

Often, when a WAS suggests the need to have "civil" conversations, they are referring to R talks. So again, being detached and learning how to listen and validate, will go a long way to fulfilling that need, for her.

Again, a lot of what you are positing is specifically about your W's assertion that YOU are not good at communicating, which likely revolves back to her attempts to goad you into "more of the same", reactive words and behaviours.

That will continue to be her MO until you learn to detach, listen, and validate. Then, she can not use comm as the touch stone reason. She AND you are likely assuming that comm means that YOU open up and discuss your feelings so that she can invalidate them and get you in the defensive.

Changing that behaviour in you, is likely to make huge changes in your R with your W.

[Rockwallaby]

I need to show I am detached and do this in a way that is not emotional. Any advice?

Your statement is contradictory. If you ARE detached, it will NOT be emotional. Detaching begins with not being emotionally attached to an outcome. Get yourself used to a possible reality that your M may actually end. Work through what ever emotions you have. This will help you become detached from that possible outcome which in turn will allow you to be less attached to anything she may say or do, towards that end, in the future.

Firstly Kaffe thank you for a great reply, it helps a lot. I did not express this very well. What I was saying was when I tried to detach, WAS reacted with "what's wrong?" And then tried to turn it on me, saying I was not being civil by being unwilling to talk. I need to workout how I let this reaction go and let her own it.

I am waiting for her to make move on separation, hard because my position with children could be weakened by not acting and I need to secure my accommodation as it is needed for my work permit. Again I think she tries to provoke by not saying if she has acted.

Does anyone have good techniques for practicing validation and detachment?

[Rockwallaby]

WAS is out tonight, with work colleagues was her story.

When a WAS criticises the past and past actions is it best to best acknowledge how they feel and leave it there? She feels I have not communicated and taken her foregranted in the past, but by communicating more it gets thrown back as too late or for the wrong reasons. how can you show you have changed if they will not recognise the changes?

[littleGTO]

Hi, Rock,
I just wanted to chime in my two cents to your questions.

First, about the changes...if she brings up the past about you not communicating or taking her for granted acknowledge that your part in this, "I recognized that I needed to work on communicating with you in a way that you were being heard. I also realize that at times I took you for granted." (This would be taking ownership of some of things she felt contributed to the current situation).

-OR-

"I understand that you feel my communication was frustrating for you and that you felt I took you for granted (validating her feelings w/o agreeing or disagreeing).

Then I would add, "I am working on my own growth in these areas."

I guarentee she WILL notice them after consistent long-term changes are made.

As far as a response to your "showing validation and detachment," ...When she talks to you stop what you are doing, look her in the eyes, and LISTEN. Just by doing this alone you are validating that what she has to say is important. You don't even always need to respond.

But again, you can repeat what she's said using her words to demonstrate that you've heard her (but not necessarily agreeing with her).

Detaching has to do with your lack of emotional response to her no matter what she says or does. This one is tricky b/c it takes a lot of "fake it 'til you make it" doing.

One who is detached would not take the bait when she tries to engage you in an argument or brings up a controversial topic. I think of detachment like talking with someone you work with (but are not close to)--respectfully & politely and definitely not with any emotions connected to your conversations.

Finally, I don't agree w the whole pushing for "buying her out of the house" or formalizing the child custody at this point. It seems like A LOT of pressure to her when she hasn't even been given time and space to change her mind!

Just my two cents!

[Rockwallaby]

Little GTO thanks great tips. Wish I had read this when bomb was dropped 6 months ago.

I agree on house, in the end it was her choice to leave, I had given a ultimatum but I retracted this and gave her my word she can stay. She still signed the lease. She is I think still in fog and convinced that love cannot return between us. Iam focusing on the things I can change for me and my children. I am working through my feelings and emotions, (fear of being alone, sadness at the loss and the hurt of EA and PA) and looking forward on my own future and career.

I know she is also working through her own issues from her past, I think her WA is as much to do with this as me, I have to let her do that and let go of the attachment. I like the fake it to you make it as that is exactly how I feel. we were talking about her being away from work in the future and it immediately stirs emotions which I need to work through but not project on her.

I know in future I ned to make sure my own needs are being met and no let things go unsaid between me and my partner. I need to listen and let them know how much I care.

I am reading DR and have made so many mistakes, making affair public, pressuring and arguing back. after six months it might be too late to change the damage that has been done. I know there is no point worrying on that, it is done and I am day by day focusing on how I am now, not then. I will make these changes stick and not let her drag me back.

[AnotherStander]

I did not express this very well. What I was saying was when I tried to detach, WAS reacted with "what's wrong?" And then tried to turn it on me, saying I was not being civil by being unwilling to talk. I need to workout how I let this reaction go and let her own it.

It sounds like you don't understand what detachment is. It is more a state of mind than anything you do or say. Too many people think detachment is being cold/ uncaring towards their spouse, so they try that and they say "gee, this detachment stuff doesn't work, it's just pushing my spouse farther away." But that's not detachment, that's just being a tool, LOL! Peanut's older description still describes detachment better than anything else I've read:

"Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, �I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.�

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


Don't confuse detachment with going dark. They are two totally different things. It sounds like you went dark, but Michele cautions that if your spouse felt that you were cold and distant in the M, then she will interpret going dark as "more of the same" behavior and it can therefore do more harm than good. DB'ing above all else is doing the OPPOSITE of what you did wrong before.

[Rockwallaby]

Another Stander

That is great information and yes I think I was getting mixed up between going dark and detachment which has been confusing WAS. That helps me understand detachment much better and I can work on this to stop the distance/pursuer.

Her key messages have remained that;
- I did not listen to her,
- I did not get what she was saying, awkwardness in our communication
- Did not explore here feelings but talked about me
- I did not change, classical conditioning does not work.
- She was doing everything stay away mums do and working and felt there was no thanks.
- I did not lose weight which she found unattractive.
- Acknowledging her efforts at home re cooking and children, playing on electronic devices when we are talking,

The lack of physical and emotional happines made the PA an easy step. This is difficult for me as she has said it is not relevant but will not commit to no contact. The leads me to think it is ongoing. As she wants to leave it is probably the wrong time to make conditions on the OM.

This is hard because I find myself emotionally feeling I have been wronged. I need to let this go and concentrate on improving by really listening to her ande setting goals around the points she has kindly communicated to me.

Her reactions are still very emotional and there is a lot of blame attached around her communication. I find that in the past I have reacted to this, now I know to detach, validate and focus on the points above. I can also see that I am lucky as her strong emotions and even anger is positive, she bottled all this up for years so her emotions still show me she has feelings and cares about what is happening.

[Rockwallaby]

Hi All Ineed some advice. WAS has indicated she is moving out this weekend, she plans to take the children to new house tomorrow and then move on Saturday. she wasn't a children to go with her on Saturday night, her reasoning is so that they do not feel their mother is abandoning them. I do not agree with her on this, of course because she is breaking up their family unit and if they leave then what are the children going to think about Dad being left behind?

there is no point having an argument, however I do want to make my point to her that this move might seem better for her but is not taking into account my position or indeed what the children want and feel. As a Dad my focus is on staying close to my children, understanding them and letting them know everything is OK.

WAS has not told them she is going yet, she wants to take them to the house first so they do not worry about it, again I think this is flawed logic but she is entitled to her views and I will remain with attention on the children, I am thinking once she has spoken with them and shown I will talk to them both and just let them know I love them and am always here for them.

I feel I am working well on being detached but still need to draw the line of detachment and still voicing my position

[~ kd ~]

That is a really tough sitch.

Am I to understand that, as far as you know, the kids do not yet know your W is planning on leaving, let alone taking them with her?

If that is the case, I think that your best bet is to let your W know that you feel it is important for all of you to sit down and discuss this with the kids.

You could let her know that you DO want to discuss this with the kids and are prepared to do so, without her presence, although that will probably lead to an argument.

At the end of the day, understand that, the kids will have a lot of questions and concerns regarding the move. The sooner they now about it, the sooner your W will have to deal with the fallout.

Just brace yourself to be the best dad you can be and be ready to support and comfort them in this stress. They will not understand and will look to both of you to support them.

Also, I would probably recommend that you speak to a L regarding this, ASAP. She may not have a legal right to move the kids without an appropriate custody agreement in place.