Crazy little thing called MLC

[Raine]

I don't know TVS. I'm just hurting so much. I don't feel like I would be able to ever give myself to anyone fully again. I let him into every part of me. I was so vulnerable with him because I trusted him completely. I thought he would never do any of these things. I married him for that. Because I could be so honest with him and I thought he would always be so honest with me. And now I feel like everything is an excuse with him. He has done so much damage he doesn't want to do the work to repair it. He just wants to keep burying all of his problems like he has his entire life.

It's really hard to trying and do this on my own with little kids and him being a weekend dad. I told him I wanted more than a weekend dad for the kids and he said at least it's better than what they have now.

[AJM]

Um. Just a second. I know you're hurt right now, but bear with me a second.
He said:

I am a mess right now. We just ended up in a R talk. H wants to move on. He said the following:
I will never be able to forgive him.
I'm too judgmental.
I'll always bring the past up. 5 yrs from now ill be bringing it up
I am strong and independent and don't need him
I don't want him back even if he asked.
I can do much better than him
He has put me on a pedestal in so many ways. I deserve better than him

So...basically he's saying you couldn't forgive him for what he's done? Does he want to be forgiven? I know in my case my ex specifically said she does not want to be forgiven. She says she's happier now than she was "under my influence". But I think she doeth protestith too much

When I see those things said, I think to myself, "what are they really saying?" Why do I think that? Because I see more than the words.

I think what he's expressing is guilt. Resignation to the guilt (I can't undo it, so I'm going to run away). I would think that it would be in line to say that if he feels that way, doesn't miss what you had and doesn't want to work through the issues together, then there isn't much that can be said.

When he says those things, I hear him saying he can't forgive "himself". That he doesn't feel worthy after what he's done. I don't think that's realistic and I know for a fact he can't say what you will or won't do or how you feel or think. He has some ideas how he would feel etc, but can't possibly know what you will do. It's all new ground for the two of you.

Any thoughts how to bridge that gap?

AJ

[TSquared2]

Hi Raine,

I agree with AJ ^^^^^. My W had said things similar when she was all guilt-ridden and the thought of even trying to set things right or whatever was overwhelming to her...the urge to run, again, was huge. They are "runners". It has passed with W, well, mostly...give it time, keep validating, being forgiving, calm, consistent...and, of course, patient. Be the wonderful you you are. I am sure the new son has his mind spinning, and he is conflicted and reeking of cognitive dissonance.

Hang in there!!

T^2

[job]

Raine,
I agree w/all of the posters. Your h is a runner and right now he's got a huge load of guilt on his shoulders. The things he said are right out of the mlc script. I know that the discussion disturbed you and w/a new born in the home and him being a "disney" dad doesn't help. However, I do agree w/T^2, in time things should settle down and he may very well decide differently. For now, continue to be consistent in what you say and do, i.e., validating, being forgiving, calm and the biggest key of all patience.

Raine, don't change a thing...you are doing everything right. Continue to be the wonderful person you have always been, i.e., mother, wife, companion, and friend. When your h sees that you are not "hounding" him about things, he very well may begin to see things in a clearer way, especially when he holds that precious little boy.

Hang in there.

[TSquared2]

If it helps Raine, my W said similar things about half a dozen times the first 8-9 months...then she stopped until she had to disclose the PA in Feb/Mar, then those thoughts and words came back once or twice, driven by guilt/shame and wanting to run, imo. She hasn't said them again, and her actions appear to say she is working through them atm.

Hang in there!!

[Raine]

Thanks everyone so much for your helpful advise. I read your posts over and over again today. I approached H tonight and told him I wanted to talk to him about some of the things he said yesterday. At first he got all huffy and said see you just analyze everything and won't let things go. I said I wasn't analyzing and there were something's he said about me I felt were incorrect. He apologized for jumping the gun. I told him I felt I was a very loving, forgiving, and nonjudgmental person. I said that i don't feel like I even need to defend that. He agreed. He said he was probably projecting. (AJ you nailed it.) I said I felt that it was more that he couldn't forgive himself, and he agreed. I told him that if we ever did work through these issues i would want to be done with them and never bring them up again, that he can't assume what I'm going to do or how I'm going to be. He just said he doesn't want to talk about those things. I thanked him for being here and all the help he has been, even though it's hard on him. (He had mentioned yesterday that he felt like the home was mine and even parts that were his, he feels like soon they won't be.) he said he has enjoyed spending so much time with the boys. it was a short, five min convo, which I think was good.

So I don't know how much it affected him, but it made me feel a lot better. I hope I can get to the point that when he springs a R talk on me I can respond in the moment instead of being caught off guard and coming back to it later. I guess in some ways it's a lot better than saying something I regret because I am talking from emotions.

As part of the convo yesterday he mentioned needing to get his own place. I had said in that case i think I need to start moving on the D. He seemed upset by that. He said he wanted to figure out finances and how much I need. He never mentioned D. I just said that if he goes that direction he is just saying he wants to be single and I don't want to be a part of paying for a place he is bringing women back to. He said he could do that now if he wanted to. But I know he wouldn't. Even though his roommates do, they know he is married and Christian. I think he still cares a lot about appearances. I feel like he wants his own place so he can feel even more responsible for himself and control his own finances. I don't know. Maybe it's not such a deal breaker. I think I do need to see a lawyer and figure out how much he should pay in CS/A and split things up and have him go 100% on his own. I think he needs to do that so he can grow up.

You guys really saved me on this one. I felt so done before your posts. AJ you just seem to get it from the few puzzle pieces I throw out there. I so appreciate your perspective and that you call me out on stuff I need to rethink or stop doing. T you give me the hope that if your W was saying the same stuff and she is making it through to the other side, maybe things will be the same with H and for me to focus on the positive and not the darkness we are in now. Snodderly you always have the best advise. Anytime I've felt I was at the end of my rope you always help me see the big picture. It really helped me that you felt I'm doing things right. Too often I feel like nothing is right and it makes me want to run and give up. I dont know how I'd manage without the friendships here.

[AJM]

I think you handled that very well.
Somethings to consider:

Too often I feel like nothing is right and it makes me want to run and give up. I dont know how I'd manage without the friendships here.

That's why they always say over and over again that MLC is not for the faint of heart. It's a long and difficult journey. You are not alone in this, and many have walked in your shoes in the past. It's not easy and often people don't talk about it after the fact. I hate that they don't, but it is what it is. It's also why this board is so valuable. We get it and we want you to be the best you can be.

The other thing to think about is that you had a GREAT conversation with him. But now you'll need to let it sink in. There is no time line for how long it will rattle around in his grape before falling into a place he can figure it out and understand it. But you've planted the seed and did so very honestly and very well. That is commendable especially in your situation and at this time in your lives.

At some point, you'll have to forgive him. As a Christian, you're called to do so. I know from my own situation that's a very hard and murky path. But there is tremendous value in doing so for you both. No matter what happens and what he says, work towards that. You don't need him, to forgive him (seems counter-intuitive, I know). But he needs it and so do you. He seems to need it more than anyone at this point if you ask me. He's not dealing with his guilt and shame very well.

For what it's worth, I saw similar with my ex. Before she decided everything was my fault, she felt horrible. Then she decided it was my fault and became horrible Early on she apologized and looked for reasons why she was acting and feeling that way. Doctors etc. She couldn't live with it anymore (I was worried she would kill herself at the time and took action - ouch) and she decided it was my fault she was unhappy. From what I see she is still, many years later, dealing with the guilt and trying to understand things while also going through whatever she is going through. I don't talk to her (it's better for me that way), but that doesn't stop her from trying to tell me things. She is trying to dump her anger on me and justify her actions. Still. She is trying to blame me by calling me all kinds of things and diagnosing me with all kinds of psychological maladies. Just before she married the OM she told me she doesn't want forgiveness. She tries hard to tell me how happy she is now, especially when she doesn't get what she wants. I see it for what it is. When somebody who doesn't know you diagnoses you with mental issues, you have to really wonder ya know?

Guilt and forgiveness are a heavy burden. One that many people carry for years and years. Our prisons are full of people like that. It'll make people crazy or act crazy at any rate.

At some point you'll need to figure out how to forgive. No matter if he comes home or leaves. For what it's worth, I think he wants to come home, but doesn't seem to know how. And doesn't seem to be done "baking" yet either. But seems he is also struggling with intense guilt for what he's done. He just isn't ready to face it yet. What you did was let him know you see it and that you are willing to work through it. I can assure you that he will be harder on himself than you can ever be and that may be more frightening than anything. It's what leads to MLCr's blaming those closest if you ask me. You he can walk away from him(so he thinks; that's not realistic because of the kids) but he has himself to look at for the rest of his life.

He's going to learn a very harsh and valuable lesson. The value of forgiveness and where it comes from and why it is so important. I think that's an important lesson and one that leads to the way out for him.

As the song says, "So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains. And we never even know we have the key."

Be patient. Let God work as He works and trust. You can't change him, but you can forgive him. He will have to do the rest and you can't take that burden on. He already knows you love him and he already knows he messed things up. He may not know why yet, or what led him to do that. You can't do that work for him.


Peace,
AJ

[Raine]

At points I feel like I have forgiven him, but that's hard when the affairs continue. I guess I feel I'm understanding. I understand how he could be where he is and how he could be doing what he is doing. The longer this goes on the more I learn the why's: the neglect, the abuse, the resentment. The who's and the what's of his replay aren't that important to me, it's the why he is here and whether it can it be overcome/healed.

I long to be out of limbo, one way or another. It has been nice (helpful and good for the kids) and also draining to have him here. I have a lot of respect for those who can manage to live with an MLCer. He is so immature. I was tired of all the boyish jokes. At one point I teased him about being 16, and he said he wishes he was. He is more like 13-14. Interesting he is that clued in, even if we were joking around.

Paternity leave is over and he has moved back out and back to full throttle single life. As much as he has been blaming himself he did bring up again that he felt I didn't appreciate his affections before when I would get frustrated he wouldn't leave me be when I was working on something. So yes my husband abandoned his family because sometimes I got annoyed when he wanted multiple kisses when I was working on something. There's a box for that to check when I file for divorce right?:)

All joking aside (I did not joke with him) I took his feelings very seriously. I feel horrible about it, that I was too busy to meet his needs. I apologized to him and told him there are things that I did that I'm not happy about, things I've changed about myself. I know I was resentful of him. I take full responsibility for my faults and where I could have been a much better wife.

In so many ways I get the feeling to run away. I find myself looking at jobs out of state. I want to D and run away from it all and not have to see him or deal with him. I fight that with wanting my kids to have a good relationship with their dad. I want my kids to have both parents. I think about being remarried and blending families and the work involved with that and how that would be so hard on the kids. I think about how hard it is to be a single mom. It makes me hold on that maybe H will come around at some point and we can fix things and our M can be better than it was before.

It's emotion vs logic. Logically I'm not going anywhere. Even if I was divorced, nothing would change. I wouldn't be dating or anything. I just think I wouldn't be hurt by him being with OW. (I probably still would be, and likely even more so because he wouldnt need to hide it anymore.) But that pain seems worth it if things can work out in the end.

[TSquared2]

Hi Raine,

Just a quick note to say I get what you are saying, all of it.

This is so tough...

Not much else right now...

Hang in there!
T^2

[GatorGirl]

Raine,
Popping in for a quick hello...congratulations on sweet boy #4. You must be so in love!

I'm so glad you're still hanging in there. You have a resolve I simply cannot find-bless you for that. I understand your desire to run and be on your own and all that. Limbo is the worst of both worlds-not married, not single. I for one crave and miss the everyday physical affection-a quick hug here, a kiss there...I hate that part of being alone. Single motherhood is not a job for the faint of heart. It gives you strength and resolve that you never even knew was there.

As for feeling guilty about not always giving in to his affection and to pushing him off while trying to work on things, as mothers we are called to do it all. You did the absolute best you could with everything, I am certain of that. He did not leave because you didn't stop what you were doing and kiss him. His reasons for leaving are MUCH more complex than that-you know it and I know it too. I find myself returning to the phrase I've seen here so often when talking about my H-"I didn't break him, so I can't fix him". He's got to do the fixing on his own. You can be there to support him, but he's got to do the hard work by himself. Also, regarding him giving you a list of reasons about what you feel, etc., remind him that he cannot dictate to you how you will react, how you feel, what you will or will not do. Only you can decide or predict those things.

Again, so glad you're hanging in there. You make me so incredibly proud. You're an amazing woman.

Big huge hugs from the Sunshine State!!
GG xo