she's a wonderful person but...

[banjopicker]

Well, it was so difficult I couldn't shake it. I went back to that place where I roll around in the muck of how distant we are and how there's no fixing it in the near future and how low I am on her priorities. It's not a happy place. Often told about my grumpiness, I consciously try to keep it in check, so I don't have outbursts or stomp or yell. I do get quiet, keep to myself, much like my response in the robe-opening incident. And I didn't want to be near her or speak with her on the chance that I'd say something I'd regret later. I try to maintain as if nothing is wrong, but I'm sure my grim face and lost sense of humour shines through.

And she's familiar enough with this pattern that she picked up on it. Next day she pulled me aside for a chat. I had tried to blame the cancellation of a family birthday event on her. Really, I was trying to withdraw, semi-consciously. She called me on it, then we got into other stuff for a few minutes. She acknowledged her wall, she'd try to work on it in coming days. I said it'd take much longer than that for her to finish grieving. I paraphrased my "Don't..." poem from above, explained how hard this has been on me, lost weight, sleep. Ended up kissing, embracing.

That did it. I've been out of the muck since. Had a great birthday event after all. Still haven't dug into things we need to discuss, but I'm okay with the reassurance for now.

[Accuray]

Banjopicker,

I have to admit I can't make heads or tails of your wife's behavior and how you report it. It's like something is missing. Is there anything remarkable in your history that you've left out?

Was your relationship always this way?

When did things start to distance?

How long have they been distant?

I relate to a lot of what you say as I often felt I was walking on eggshells around my W and would do my best to "act as if" she wasn't disappointing me when she was. She did read that disappointment, however, and started feeling like she was always a disappointment and then just stopped trying. Like you, however, once in a while things are good and it picks you up. What you have to realize, however, is that it's very hard to sustain living like that. It's like subsisting on scraps. If you've been starving for 3 days and find a half-eaten turkey leg that's still warm, you're going to feel really good about it for a while, and it's a challenge to step back and see that it's a half-eaten turkey leg, and not really what you *want*.

Then she pushes my arm away, says I can't touch her. She'd started to cry. Says something like "I like it, but I feel too close to you, so I can't get close to you or I'll cry all day."

What does this mean to you? I've been thinking about this for a couple days and I still can't make any sense out of it at all.

Something like that could be explained by a deep sense of guilt, like she's betrayed you, hasn't told you, but is having a hard time living with herself, and allowing you to comfort her triggers her guilt. That's wild speculation on my part, I'm interested in how you interpret it and how new this behavior is, when it started, etc.

Today I come out of the shower, and find her still in her robe after her shower. I step over and playfully pull her robe open. She immediately pulls it shut and says no way, firm, ain't having none of that. I leave the room, don't say anything, finish in the bathroom, and head off to a computer, shut the door. She comes in shortly, says she's not in a good place right now, starts to say something again about being close to me, but can't finish. Starts to cry. I tell her I'm trying to leave her alone, but it's difficult. She agrees. I tell her to have her space, just give me a kiss now and then. She agrees, kisses.

Men like to connect through sex. It is a common mistake for a man to try to comfort/connect with a woman by initiating sex. You are acting based on what drives you, not her. If you read "The Sex Starved Marriage" this dynamic is explained.

Unfortunately when you get to that point, 60% is probably *your* desire for connection and 40% your desire to comfort her, so there are dual agendas. You need to try to figure out how *she* likes to receive comfort and support that does not involve you just withdrawing, which is essentially giving up.

I love you, but
don't touch me,
don't talk to me about anything meaningful,
don't spend quality time with me
or I'm not going to hold it together.

Once again, seems to come from a place of guilt. What's your analysis?

Ended up kissing, embracing.

That did it. I've been out of the muck since. Had a great birthday event after all. Still haven't dug into things we need to discuss, but I'm okay with the reassurance for now.

Make sure not to lose sight of the marriage you want in trying to deliver what she needs. If it's not a win/win it won't last.

Accuray

[25yearsmlc]

Mother-in-law passed away a couple days ago. W and father-in-law kept up a 24 hour vigil for about a week at the hospital, had about two dozen false alarms where they said their goodbyes, very exhausting physically and emotionally. I'm doing everything I can think of to be supportive. Big one is give lots of space, don't make demands.

Next day we're in the kitchen, alone. She's poking in the cupboard while telling me something. I pull her over, put my arm around her while she continues. I forget what it was, nothing too deep, kind of an update. Then she pushes my arm away, says I can't touch her. She'd started to cry. Says something like "I like it, but I feel too close to you, so I can't get close to you or I'll cry all day."

Today I come out of the shower, and find her still in her robe after her shower. I step over and playfully pull her robe open. She immediately pulls it shut and says no way, firm, ain't having none of that. I leave the room, don't say anything, finish in the bathroom, and head off to a computer, shut the door. She comes in shortly, says she's not in a good place right now, starts to say something again about being close to me, but can't finish. Starts to cry. I tell her I'm trying to leave her alone, but it's difficult. She agrees. I tell her to have her space, just give me a kiss now and then. She agrees, kisses.

God, this is difficult. So it boils down to this for her:

I love you, but
don't touch me,
don't talk to me about anything meaningful,
don't spend quality time with me
or I'm not going to hold it together.

excuse me but my take on this is different than some.

In my opinion, having lost a parent and experienced DEEP GRIEF

I can tell you that my libido took a nosedive for months...and my h was a pillar of support. I valued touching but not sex itself b/c it was very distracting to have thoughts of my dying father, intruding.

When HIS mother died, I was there for him. IF he wanted intimacy I'd give him a back rub without expectation of more

OR we'd ml, and I let HIM decide. He was the one in grief.

I did not make it about me. I guess for me, your timing is just horrendous.

I know you've felt neglected for a long time. Did you try to help more w/the kids, esp the sick one who isn't only your w's responsibility? Does she resent that she had to do so much while you withdrew?

your wife is probably deeply depressed. At times like this, sex can feel selfish, almost like a guilt inducing activity.

That's how this strikes me. I'd back way off b/c the last thing your wife needs now is another person making demands of her.

maybe you could touch her if she didn't feel that you'd clearly see it as foreplay, which I suspect it is.

Just give to her without expectation for now.

In a few months, you can address the other issues but like I said, I find your timing horrendously selfish.

I'm sorry. I know you've been at this awhile but now that the death has arrived,

she needs to process her loss and see you as a pillar of support NOT making demands of her...esp sexual ones, b/c they just look so...NOT "giving" at this time.

So what am I supposed to make of this? Is there such thing as an anti-love language? Sounds like that's what she wants. Is this a good thing that she feels so prone to breakdown if she begins to enter anything that looks like intimacy with me?


again, don't make this about YOU. It's about her sadness and grief.

I don't believe it's nearly as complicated as you're making it.

You want your needs met and we all understand that. WE do too. But you've chosen the time she most neglected you, as THE time to make your needs a priority and more known to her. That would normally make sense...except

Her "neglect" of you is due to her supporting YOUR sick child

and her dying parent....And now at the moment of HER DEEPEST GRIEF,

you've decided to rock the m...

How does it affect you to care for a sick child? I assume she's not the only parent helping... Do you find yourself thinking of sex more then, or less? Women react differently to sadness than men...)


So you've decided you just can't wait anymore...you want your needs met NOW.

I suspect you could end this marriage by that behavior. I suspect helping her with depression and grief is your best bet---but if you simply MUST demand more of her NOW...and know that it'll end the m,

then maybe you ought to leave and hope your next w never has to take care of anyone but you.

It's so incredibly frustrating.

[banjopicker]

I have to admit I can't make heads or tails of your wife's behavior and how you report it. It's like something is missing. Is there anything remarkable in your history that you've left out?

Was your relationship always this way?

When did things start to distance?

How long have they been distant?

I can't think of anything notable left out. No EAs or PAs or financial problems or in-law trouble or work demands or any other crises except for the medical issues with S and parent.

I'd say distancing started around the time child #2 arrived. Being a conflict avoider as well as rather indecisive, I settled into a pattern of following her lead, something she's never had an issue with. We'd talk, but not about our feelings or relationship. When I first mentioned this in that initial late-night talk about 6 weeks ago, she wondered what we needed to talk about since she already knew my thoughts on religion and politics.

Then she pushes my arm away, says I can't touch her. She'd started to cry. Says something like "I like it, but I feel too close to you, so I can't get close to you or I'll cry all day."

What does this mean to you? I've been thinking about this for a couple days and I still can't make any sense out of it at all.

Something like that could be explained by a deep sense of guilt, like she's betrayed you, hasn't told you, but is having a hard time living with herself, and allowing you to comfort her triggers her guilt. That's wild speculation on my part, I'm interested in how you interpret it and how new this behavior is, when it started, etc.

The only guilt I can see is the smoking, which she does feel deeply. But I don't think that's it. She's the rock of her family. Her parents and her one aunt defer to her and seek her advice. She's the head of our household. Most people she's in contact with value her opinion. Even several of the many doctors S has seen have acknowledged she was right and now defer to her in many things.

I think the sense of responsibility she has for so many of us prevents her from letting go because 1) she won't be able to get all the things done she wants to do; and 2) she won't be able to put on the brave face and be the rock of stability to support others.

It's new behavior, recent weeks. But then, like I said, we haven't talked about feelings or relationship much in many years. So maybe it's more my awareness that's new in recent weeks. Come to think of it, she did mention her last major uptake in smoking was a few years back during one of S's medical crises. She said she was so sad but she didn't want to tell me about it and make me sad. So she smoked, and kept it inside. I imagine that's the same thing as now, except this time I'm asking about it and offering more.

Make sure not to lose sight of the marriage you want in trying to deliver what she needs. If it's not a win/win it won't last.

Yes, living on scraps isn't a good long-term plan. But I'm okay with during this extraordinary period of grief. As the poster after you says, I've got to help her through that, and that means the focus is on her for now.

Thanks for your comments, Accuray. They help me think through this.

[labug]

I agree with 25, her mother just died. Give her time.

About this: Then she pushes my arm away, says I can't touch her. She'd started to cry. Says something like "I like it, but I feel too close to you, so I can't get close to you or I'll cry all day." my take is this or at least this is why I would and have, responded in that way. I can do fine in a deeply sad and painful situation if I can just focus on what needs to be done. But when people want to hug or be nice, I lose it and then my focus is lost. I've even told people, "Just don't be nice to me right now."

This is not a long term solution to experiencing grief but sometimes there are hours or events I needed to get through, then later when I felt safe, I could let the tears come.

Just an insight into what might be happening with your wife.

My H decided he was done with our marriage almost exactly one year after my mother died. We had trouble a year before that but I was working on me during that time. When mom died he was a rock and I was so appreciative of his help after her death.

But I grieved my other's loss for that year that I was trying to rebuild my marriage. It was very difficult and of course we didn't talk about my grief or my deepening depression, or his feelings about those things.

Go slow, see what happens. Support your W in whatever way you can.

[banjopicker]

Wow, 25yearsmlc, that's a lot to think about. I've re-read your comments many times, gave it a lot of thought. I agree with parts, disagree with others, in between on some, appreciate them all. It's hard to respond without going off in many directions, but I'll try.

I think the springboard for your comments was the robe-opening, so you're saying it's all about the sex for me. That's big, yes, but it's not the whole thing.

Let's look at recent months. One sexual encounter in the past three months and it was initiated by W and didn't involve intercourse. I cut out any advances, any innuendo, any playfulness like robe-opening. No sexuality whatsoever has been part of our joint lives this fall, with the one exception, until I made one innuendo when discussing gift-giving and then the robe-opening.

Yes, the robe thing had often been an initiation when the kids were small, but in recent years it's been rare and usually just involves me having a good look, a big sigh of longing, and that's the end of it. The opportunity isn't there to go any further, as was the case this time. That being said, I do agree my timing was horrendous and I do wish I hadn't done it. It still constitutes pressure. But I do see it as one stumble in what has largely been a hands-off approach (pun intended), this fall in particular, and generally for the last five years at least. I am waiting and I have waited.

The arm in the kitchen incident wasn't foreplay at all. Yes, we've had little touching for years now, but she's been receptive to this kind of hug in recent weeks. I thought she found it comforting. Maybe not. I'm just trying to figure out what she wants.

Yes, the SSM has been my focus for a long time. This fall, I've come to realize there's emotional gaps that might even be more important for me. My little poem didn't mention sex directly, although it is one aspect of touch. Touch, talk, time is what I mentioned. It's been a struggle to understand that her lack of interest in these things this fall is not rejection of me, but a coping mechanism. My gut reaction is to take it as rejection. Intellectually, I can see that she craves routine, and if our relationship routine has not involved talk, touch, time, then she doesn't want to tackle that now.

It takes awhile for the emotions to jump on board the intellectual train, so I'll probably still have a few lapses like the one I was having when I wrote the post you responded to. But I think I've been doing a half-decent job of giving her space. Certainly not as demanding as you conclude.

I'm fine with working on our relationship after the grieving settles down. I understand that. Doesn't mean it still isn't difficult to keep it to myself. That's why I'm on this board - I want to talk about it with someone and I know I can't talk about it with W right now. Again, I'm trying to give her space.

As for my timing, is it always a choice? Crises have a way of ripping the lids off cans that've been sitting quietly on the shelf during normal times. That's why crises are often major turning points - they bring things to a head. In our case, the escalating medical crisis with Grandma led to W's increased smoking and my efforts at support led to her revelation about the smoking, which rocked my world and exposed our entire relationship to a big re-evaluation.

My role in caring for the sick child and with chores in general is a subject W and I will get into down the road. She definitely carries the bigger load, but I'm far from absent. I do my share. Is she resentful? I don't know. Possibly it's been quietly building all these years just like it has for me over the SSM. I've started picking up more tasks, and I'm willing to do more.

I should clarify about the sick child. He's an average kid to look at him. But he's got an immune disorder that places him at high risk of contracting an infection that could potentially kill him within days. He's never required a high degree of day-to-day care, but it's been a long slog through the medical system. It took several years of one medical visit and test after another before a proper diagnosis was made, which was close to two years ago now. He's been improving with his treatment plan over the past 18 months, but still has a ways to go. He's at a much lower risk and outlook is good for full recovery.

The stress came from not knowing, from struggling through the medical system, from the high risk, from seeing him miss out on large chunks of childhood (missed months of school per year, couldn't enroll in sports or arts, restricted playdates). W postponed her career to stay home with him and usher him through the medical system. She researched everything, stayed on top of the doctors, taught them things - it was a full-time job, much less so since his treatment began.

[banjopicker]

About this: Then she pushes my arm away, says I can't touch her. She'd started to cry. Says something like "I like it, but I feel too close to you, so I can't get close to you or I'll cry all day." my take is this or at least this is why I would and have, responded in that way. I can do fine in a deeply sad and painful situation if I can just focus on what needs to be done. But when people want to hug or be nice, I lose it and then my focus is lost. I've even told people, "Just don't be nice to me right now."

This is not a long term solution to experiencing grief but sometimes there are hours or events I needed to get through, then later when I felt safe, I could let the tears come.

Thank you, that's a good description of how I see what's happening with W now. It's been a gradual realization. I've got to start a new mantra, something like "Not rejection - space" to help me take it slow.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi,

I know I said a lot and I hope you'll examine it as fairly as you can. It's not easy stuff to read, but it is meant to help.

I've lost a parent, and my h has lost one, too. So I've been on both sides of the tragedy. Let me share some observations.

When my father died, it was a big fat draining ordeal. Also a shockinly fast one, b/c he went to the doctor on a Wednesday and by the following Monday (5 days from his doctor's appointment) he was enrolled in Hospice w/a terminal diagnosis of cancer. He died 57 days later. Though It was relatively fast, it was truly exhausting and draining...

It's Such an under rated event to lose a parent, b/c after all, it's "the natural order of things".

I was traumatized by it. Eventually I got treated for depression. (Oh, as for my "Libido"....um, What's that?)

I recall I wanted hugs, mostly from my kids. Not sure why. Maybe b/c they comforted me in a parental way and I'd lost a parent, or maybe at some level I feared that touching would lead to the expectation of sex, which I wasn't in the mood for AND which made me feel guilty (not so much as a wife but as a daughter) and a tad irked by my h, Like "how can you think of that at a time like THIS??"

he didn't push or act rejected or take it personally. I never saw anger in his eyes then.

I didn't see it as him being selfish. He seemed to be offering me comfort, and as we know, making love CAN COMFORT; it's not all about the big 'O.

Making love can express support in grief, or mutual sorrow. It can show forgiveness, reconciliation, it can be celebratory...

So can ALL forms of touch, like back rubs, scratching the legs, brushing hair, etc.....

BTW, thoughts of my dad's illness & death DID intrude at the worst times...

I had A LOT of trouble sleeping too, & needed sleeping pills for months after wards and throughout the short time he was sick.

I had a new job but could barely think of anything else but I worked full time, and had small children for whom I wanted the most "normal" life possible. Of course, I did not know how fast my dad would pass on. I thought I had more time...

In contrast to my father's shockingly rapid passing, my mother in law was diagnosed with an aggressive form of terminal lung cancer, and given a short time to live (<6 months. Ultimately she lived another 22 months).

Based on the info we had at the time, and my own past experience, I suggested my h join her on the east coast for the summer, to spend time with her.
I didn't think I was being particularly "heroic" to suggest that much time away from family AND the loss of income.(Originally it was just a summer)

I simply recalled how much time I missed with my dad when he passed away. I visited him three times in his 57 day illness, thinking I had more time and that the cost of flying back & forth was so costly at the time (yes, I had MAJOR regrets about that, later).

But my mil lived 22 months in a nearly constant state of crisis, often hovering near death...and my h spent almost a year of that time with her, away from us (left coast vs east coast).

It cost us a lot personally and financially, and the kids missed him too. But he's one of only 2 children, and he's an MD so it seemed fair and loving for him to be there as much as he could.

Heck yes it wore on me....After several months apart it also wore on the kids too. And who knew how long it would go on?

But no, you don't get to bring a lot of marital issues up right then. However,

We DID go to Retrovaille in the middle of all this and it helped a lot.

I wasn't feeling "neglected" or if I was, I would not have admitted that. IT's too high maintenance to complain at THAT stage of things....

But I felt we had only just begun piecing, when his mother got sick, and then he was gone again, a lot AND the stress made him very irritable and critical at times.

We were backsliding fast. So I urged him to join me in Retrovaille "or somewhere fast" b/c we needed to get some tools for this b/c

we were facing a new challenge for which we were simply not well prepared (and besides, this happened AFTER DBing and reconciling and starting to piece.... so I was not going to get complacent about anything. But my reserves were also low.

I could put MY needs aside for as long as needed, and knew that. But the fighting--??? No...I was doing more than my share stepping up to the plate as a wife and mother AND as a daughter in law, and knew that in THAT situation I was already maxing out doing my best...I was pretty sure it was h's time to show up for us EVEN while his mother was dying...I had not been mean or irritable to my kids when my dad died, and could not endure an unending time period of mistreatment due to his obvious stress/depression.

Plus, the time from the kids was NOT going to be good for us as a couple, we needed him home more...

Retrovaille was a fast "jump start" to getting back on track for us.
Think about going...in a month or so...

Also, I spent weeks on the east coast to help my mil thru her chemo. Sometimes I brought a child, sometimes I did not. All the travelling added up costs too. And that's a stressor, for sure. You never want to admit it at that moment but it's there.

As for how often we ML, I can't say. It's a blur. Since h was the one grieving, I'm trying to recall how I felt then. I knew that I"d always have regrets if 9M


Probably more than you did but It wasn't my mother dying and when my dad passed, it was quick. I "allowed" intimacy b/c I wanted to feel close to my h but I don't recall it being sexually very satisfying so much as emotionally satisfying. And the part that wasn't "satisfying" was due to my emotions interfering, nothing selfish on my hs' part as a lover.

SIDENOTE my mil had her own mother living with her, a 95 y/o Russian woman living w/limited English and some major attitude. We could not split them up...until death came. To our suprise that did not take long.

The strangest saddest touching thing happened. One night the great grand mother asked me if I thought her daughter (=my mil) would "not outlive" her, the grandmother.

Grandma then asked if my h was going to be able to cure his mother, since "he is a good doctor, he must know how"....

I can't tell you how heartbreaking it was to have a woman sincerely believe that her grandson could cure anything AND that with modern medicine, her cancer ridden daughter would be "healthy again, soon"...plus, she could not understand "why God would do this"...(meaning, he'd let her daughter (= my mil) die before she died and she could not abide the concept of outliving her only child.

She asked me several questions about the cancer her daughter had...She asked why God would do this to HER. I knew they'd had conflicts & issues in the past so I said "I don't know, but maybe you can use this time to make peace"...

anyhow, grandma died a week later...for no apparent reason. Yes- she was old, but in otherwise good health. It's as if she willed herself to die so she would not bury her only child. That was a surprise too.



In sum, it was a big long endurance test for all involved...it wears on you personally and financially we really miscalculated.

She lived with us for some time and I quit my job to care for her. That was labor intensive b/c her cancer had gone to the brain. She could not be left alone for more than 2 minutes & only then, under SOME circumstances...otherwise, it was 24/7 care. She kept smoking too...and would dangerously light cigarettes over our gas stove (she didn't take kindly to ME taking the cigarettes away either. ).

The continued smoking drove my h insane b/c it was the reason she was dying. But I asked him if he wanted to spend his remaining time arguing with her about it...are accepting her choice b/c after all, it was SHE who was paying the ultimate price. Not to mention how fun nicotine withdrawal would feel then...

The compromise was she cut down a lot, and only smoked outside...

She did pass away and her sons were at her side. We had a funeral. I handled most of the probate work with his brother, which wasn't fair to me or the brother, and there were some minor flare ups between them, but the way for me to be supportive was to handle any legal matters I could, pay all our bills, manage the yard and cars & travel arrangements, and care for our home and children. So I did.


SO....my suggestions...

when you know your spouse is in grief, you can still let them know you find them attractive, w/o sexually pressuring them. Doing it openly with an audience so there's no way to assume it's meant to lead somewhere, is but one way...simple compliments about how good they look or how a color or an outfit flatters them, are another.

Let them take the lead on intimacy. If several months pass without any intimacy, and you're not already in counselling, I'd highly recommend marriage counselling for that, and or, IC for their depression.

If they see someone for their depression, that's for THEM, not you. It'll help you in time, obviously. But don't add to their despair or make them feel as if they've let YOU down too... especially if there are any feelings of guilt or remorse they already have vis a vis their parent.

You said --

"As for my timing, is it always a choice? Crises have a way of ripping the lids off cans that've been sitting quietly on the shelf during normal times. That's why crises are often major turning points - they bring things to a head. In our case, the escalating medical crisis with Grandma led to W's increased smoking and my efforts at support led to her revelation about the smoking, which rocked my world and exposed our entire relationship to a big re-evaluation. "

That's ONE way to look at it.

Another way is to see it from her point of view (maybe)

The time I most needed my h, he decides to escalate the 'neglect' he felt and turned into a horrible problem FOR ME/US...

And as for our relationship problems... instead of supporting me or helping me with my mom or my family or taking over our kids and the home or stepping up to the plate AND doing it with love, not a martyr's sigh...he feels HIS NEEDS are not being met now...he wants sex and is shocked that I don't automatically turn on like he does and that I might need TIME to get in the mood and he thinks I'm a failure for not having sexual desire for him at this time...so he's ADDING to my stress, not lessening it...

which is close to being unforgivable at this time"

Banjo, crises are tests for us. I'd NEVER judge my marriage by how I/we felt after the death of a parent or child

or for that matter I'd never judge a marriage in the first 6 months after the birth of a new baby.

We've had major personal/familial adjustments with the gain of another child/responsibility,

and we chronicall lack sleep

and our hormones are way off, and someone (ie the baby) is making life or death demands on us right then!!

Oh, and our sex life stinks for now...

See Banjo, the birth of a new baby has some of the physical affects that the death of a parent has, but b/c a baby is a "happy" event, and people discuss it more

there are fewer complaints right away about the sex life decline...and most know that in time, it improves. With a grief induced drop in libido, it's hard to know when things will get back to normal (or if).

But most partners will get help if they notice that they aren't "getting better" with sufficient time. 6 weeks after my dad's death our youngest, then 4, asked me if I'd "always be sad"...b/c she wanted to know when I'd play with her more or read to her at bedtime, etc.

The next day I saw a doctor and discussed my thought process and that I felt it was "natural to be sad"...he asked whether I wanted pain relief in childbirth b/c
"it's natural"

and he was right... I DID want an epidural so the analogy paid off. I went on anti depressants and noticed improvement pretty quickly. SOME of them decrease the libido, others help. But your w's so frail right now, my guess is she'd improve anyhow.

[25yearsmlc]

SORRY....I clicked the wrong button & this posted before I edited it, and then I could not edit it.

(SOME MODERATOR, SOMEDAY, please explain why we can't edit our posts anymore?? I remember the good old days...)

Oh well Banjo, take what you can and leave the rest...good luck

[banjopicker]

I've lost a parent, and my h has lost one, too. So I've been on both sides of the tragedy. Let me share some observations.

Thank you for sharing your story. It helps me understand a bit more of what W must be going through (since she's not talking to me about it - and that's okay! ). It also illustrates how difficult it can be supporting your spouse through a prolonged crisis.

I'd never heard of this Retrouvaille thing you mentioned. I've looked it up now, and maybe that'd be something to suggest down the road. W is Catholic, not me. Reading some of these relationship books, I was thinking I'd look up some marriage retreats as a way to kickstart our relationship reboot whenever she's ready to do that. But I was a little concerned that many of these authors, if they have a religious bent, are from the evangelical Protestant side of the Christian spectrum. W might be more open to a Catholic version. Anyway, I'm glad you mentioned it. And that you went in the middle of your crises.

Unfortunately, Retrouvaille doesn't seem to be operating in our city, even though the Diocese has it on their website. Maybe it's just not scheduled yet.

SO....my suggestions...simple compliments.

Let them take the lead on intimacy.

I think I've finally settled on backing off. I find myself thinking, surprisingly, that I'm okay with no sex for months if that's what she needs. Not sure how many. I'm telling myself over and over that it's not rejection, it's grieving space. Same goes with non-sexual touching as well. I'll try sticking to the parting/greeting kiss as my lifeline. I'll try to keep up the simple compliments, the little gifts, and the increased chores since that shouldn't lead to any breaks in that wall she's trying to maintain. Yet I hope it's still noticed and seen as acts of love and support.

It's only a short-term plan. It can't go on indefinitely. And it can't simply return to our pattern of recent years. I just hope she's willing to tackle it, too.

stepping up to the plate AND doing it with love, not a martyr's sigh

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse. Got to keep them in check. I'm starting to remember some from long ago that probably helped establish our pattern. Doing some dishes yesterday, I had a flash of scrubbing the sinks and counters with bleach in a rage once, prompted by some complaint or request from W about helping out more. Yeah, that probably didn't come across as an expression of love.