W filed, I think we can make it work - what to do?

[Spartan]

Well we went out Saturday night to get the shopping done but their was still tension in the system from the fight in the morning. On the drive to the first store the one thing I didn't want to happen happened, she brought up the morning fight and asked me why I have any interest in the marriage anymore. Not sure if she just wanted to start a fight and end the evening early or wanted to talk more, which isn't like her, but I wouldn't get into another fight and remained calm the entire conversation. I responded that I have no interest in the old marriage but I believe people can change and it happens all the time. She said she didn't believe people can change when they aren't compatible and I said I didn't agree. Told her changing is a choice a person makes and most people choose not to because it's easier to blame others then to work on themselves. She asked why I thought we would be willing to change now if we never did in the past (felt like the 'we' was really 'you') and I was silent for a couple seconds. She said I had no answer for that. I told her I honestly didn't think she'd ever leave and deep down, as I've told her before, I always blamed her for the issues which is no longer the case. I told her now I fully see my part in the marriage breakdown and it makes me sick to see who I had become. She said she has seen changes in me but doesn't think they'll last. Said she feels I'm just reacting to save the marriage because I've lost control and I'm trying to rationalize everything. I agreed that I had lost control but I didn't feel as if that's a bad thing. Told her I didn't fully understand the rationalize everything comment but I felt her filing did trigger something in me and I was sorry it took filing for it to happen.

I told her I felt many of our issues stem from our different communication styles. Said I felt rather then communicating effectively and understanding each others point of view we projected what the other's motives were and as things got bad over the years the projected motives got worse. I said we've likely each created the other person to be a monster over the years which just isn't true. Since we were on communication topic I asked her if she'd clarify one of her comments from the morning and she said yes. I asked her what she meant when she said I haven't changed because I still ask questions. This one bugged me because I've made a real effort to not ask anything about when she goes out, who she went with, etc... She said when we talk on phone when she's at work I ask her about workload (how many cases, what they are, if she gets any free time, etc...) and she hates it. She said she feels like I'm checking up on her to get a minute by minute account. I told her that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I said I've been trying to take an interest in her work so I've started asking about her cases. I also said that a part of me still worries about her doing too much with her disease even though it's been better as of late so I feel better when she has slower nights. She said she felt like I was accusing her of doing things during her free time. I didn't say anything to that but she either has a lot of guilt or some extreme control issues because I just don't understand what would make her think that but I now won't be asking as many questions. I said it's always bothered me that she never asked about my job or how my day was and it made me feel like she just didn't care. We ended the conversation with me asking her if something like that bothers her to try and let me know when it happens and I'll stop doing it and explain what I was doing/ thinking. She said she'd try.

That was pretty much the end of any R talks for the evening. I'm not sure how it read but I felt like some progress was made because we both talked, I tried to understand what she was saying, and it stayed calm the entire talk. She also acknowledged seeing changes which I thought was a good thing. The talk probably lasted about 15 minutes and I've left out some smaller things. I was happy I never sounded needy and felt very confident in what I was saying and felt like it came out objectively and not in a blaming tone at all. We ended up shopping for about 3 hours and then went out for dinner. Had a lot of small talk at dinner, some laughs, and I kept bringing the conversation back to her so she talked more. I don't know if she noticed but for me the silent moments between conversations was a little uncomfortable. I haven't felt that way with my W ever but likely because it was a pretty stressful day and I just wanted to get though it without anything bad happening.

[RegretfulLA]

She said she didn't believe people can change when they aren't compatible

Boy have I heard that one. It's such a frustrating response. IMO it's a way for the WAS to "corner" you - when they say that, you don't have much of a comeback. You can't say "But we are compatible!" because obviously you wouldn't be in this mess if things were great.

I told her I felt many of our issues stem from our different communication styles. Said I felt rather then communicating effectively and understanding each others point of view we projected what the other's motives were and as things got bad over the years the projected motives got worse.

This was really insightful and a great thing to say - doesn't put the blame on anyone and tees up the situation for change. Communication is something everyone can work on. You got through to her and she agreed to try to communicate with you better! Rock on Spartan!

I know these R talks can be awful. It feels like swimming upstream in Class 5 rapids. Good for you for staying calm and working on getting your point across.

I think we all have to get to a more detached point where we not only FEEL like we could move on and it would be ok, but our WAS's start to realize that too.

[Spartan]

Might have taken a step???

Woke up Sunday and she didn't talk much to anyone before church and seemed pretty tired and a little detached. Church was a great message with the main theme being 'why does God allow suffering and hurt?'. Throughout the entire service trigger words/ phrases were being said and I felt a strong push to discuss something with W after service. My DB hat was saying not to discuss anything R, especially after last nights recent talk, but the push was strong. You religious people might understand if you've felt it, if not religious you may think I'm just crazy and sorry to you for all the upcoming 'church' talk

When we got to lobby I asked her if we could talk a second before getting kids. I said I'd likely do most the talking but felt strongly I should tell her this now. Told her I've been asking God that same question about hurt in a lot of prayers since she filed. Said I just didn't understand how this could happen after we became strong Christian believers. I told her that early on in one of our first fights she said she felt strongly that God gave her the strength to file for divorce so she could be happy in her life. I said I wondered if she had even thought about that comment since that fight. I told her that when she originally said it I honestly thought she had lost her mind but for whatever reason the comment has stuck in my brain and I always ask about it in prayer. I said about a month ago I felt clarity on the subject and wanted to share with her what I now feel and apologized in advance if I was totally off base. I told her now I feel that God did give her the strength to file to end the old marriage but I didn't know if he means for D. Told her that she now knows she is strong enough to end things that are bad and not feel controlled. She now has strength to be her own person with or without me and it must feel liberating. I also told her I feel her strength when we now talk because she isn't passive like she once was and is more outgoing with how she is feeling. I told her that I understand how unhappy she was in marriage and I now realize just how unhappy I was also and that my love tank was completely empty. I admitted that I would have never had the strength to file and would have kept being miserable for the good of the kids because she is such a good mom. I told her that her strength to file has forced me to change and reevaluate my life and I feel like that was part of God's plan also. By doing that he broke me at the core and humbled me. Rather than going down the path many guys do after divorce I turned to God and have went all in (finally). Now he's building me back up into a better person. Gone is the narcissist that I was and I'm becoming the man I should have been all along.

She looked at me with complete shock in her face and I thought I was about to be ripped a new one. Instead she said her friends just don't understand why the divorce and need for change. She said a prayer her group says every week is about having strength to do things that are in your control and let God handle the rest and in the end you will be reasonably happy. She talked for a couple minutes on the subject of feeling strong and better. She discussed some of what her group talks about which was a shock because her group has been a NO TALK subject in her life and any question regarding it would start a fight. For her to talk about it and discuss the prayer absolutely shocked me. She said the problem though is she understands God can change people but just doesn't know if they'll last. I said nothing I will say will convince her, only my actions and attitude will and she agreed with that.

When we got in car she said one of the other things in service that spoke to her was that maybe the question isn't why is there bad in the world but rather how can there still be good with so much bad. It made her want to start doing work to increase visibility of her disorder because she wants to be the 'good' for others. I encouraged that and told her I'd help if she wanted. She said she'd like to get a half marathon set up for awareness and I gave some suggestions and told her I could get a list of races for her and she seemed happy.

The rest of the day was a world of difference. She was talkative, happy, and I didn't feel the weight I've felt for last couple months. After kids went to bed I got a list of races being held locally in the spring but before I could bring it up she had her recovery group book sitting out on the table opened. She said she left it for me so I could read the prayer she mentioned earlier. I was in complete dismay. I asked if I could write it down to keep and she seemed happy about it. We then went to the computer to finish the Christmas shopping and it felt like old times. After we were done I showed her the list of races and we discussed how to set things up and I said I'd help if she wanted but didn't want to step on her toes if she wanted to do it on her own. She said she would love for me to do as much as possible since I'm usually good at this stuff.

Since I've been down this road a few times I'm keeping my expectations in check this time. I feel good about yesterday's talk but I know things change on a dime, sometimes for no known reason to me, so I'll take it day by day.

[Spartan]

Next test is tomorrow morning. It's our first meeting with the Friend of Court mediator which is first step in actual divorce process. We get to meet the mediator and take a 2 hour 'SMILE' class on how divorce affects kids. My goal is just listen to what my wife has to say and try not to breakdown during the class.

I also realized our first official court date in February falls during our cruise. Not going to mention that to W and let her figure out it needs to be rescheduled. Figure longer it takes to reschedule the farther out it will get pushed, just trying to delay as much as possible to give us time...

[complicated]

I would definitely say you have made some very positive steps. I would help her with the race but try not to bring up R unless she does or if you are relating it to something like the service. I have a feeling she may say something at or after your class tomorrow. So far you are saying all the right things. In fact, I may borrow a few lines from you!!

I am in a similar situation but H stopped D. We are separated but talks have started for him to move back. I am very cautious because I am worried he is not ready.

[Spartan]

Got through that and it was just an overview of the process, the contact info, and they had us watch a video on how to get through divorce process with least impact to kids. That was really hard for me to watch but got through it with only eyes watering.

After we were done she followed me to car rather then go to hers and she started conversation by saying I only saw negatives for kids in the video. I told her I heard the adults talking about how to make it easiest for the kids to get through this but I also saw and heard the hurt in the kids that talked about what they went through. I said I also related to many of the things they discussed. Others in room were crying but my W said she heard how it's not bad on kids if parents don't argue and can stay friends. She even said we could still keep doing things together. I think she's feeling guilty because the only time she raised her voice in this talk was when she said in past I told her she was destroying the kids by doing this. I calmly corrected her by saying that what I said was this will really hurt the kids and reconciling is better for them but she has to be the one to decide the route we take. She looked at me like she had no recollection of me saying that and she was sure I said it her version. I might start tape recording our conversations because this fog she's in doesn't seem to be letting up...

She then said she thinks we're better off as friends then spouses. She said she doesn't know if I can change to be what she wants or if she can be what I need. I told her to first let me decide what I need and not try to think she knows and that second I know she can because she's done it at times in the past. She said it's never worked in past when we tried to change so no reason to think it will now. It's so frustrating talking with someone that can't get out of the past! Anyway I told her when I'm honest with myself I'm not sure how much I really did try before and said I now know a lot more about being a husband then I did then. I asked her if she felt she had tried and she said she didn't know but said she didn't have any energy to try anymore. I responded with the reason I now think it could be different is because I know the changes I've made and I see how much stronger she now is. She said she isn't confident that hers can last and she could easily fall back to the old ways. I said I understood that concern but what gives me hope is that (1) I have more faith in her then that and (2) neither of us want anything to do with the old ways so I don't see either of us letting that happen. I said one of my biggest changes is that rather then wanting and expecting her to make me happy I now just want to make her happy which I feel will then make me happy. Told her I felt the hardest part in that will be me gaining her trust so she can help me understand how to do that. She said we both come from messed up homes and our kids deserve better and this is the way she sees that happening long term. Said that my dad walked out and she knows I'll never do that and her parents were in a fake marriage full of lies and no emotions. I asked her to think about which scenario would be better for kids since we agree neither of us want the current one so we'll assume that won't continue. Option A is we get divorced with us being friends and kids splitting time between us or option B which is us building a new marriage and staying together as family. She didn't respond but ended conversation with only time will tell but we're proceeding with process. I was complaining about no R talk just a couple days ago and now it's been 3 days in a row and I'm spent and just want a break. She keeps initiating it but ends up saying the exact same things.

One other thing she said when we were discussing change is reason she doesn't believe it will last is because I rarely finish things. She said this in a previous discussion and I need to put some thought into this to try and understand what she's talking about. I've been through a lot of hobbies in my life but I usually finish tasks/ goals that I set. Today it came up when I said I know she can meet my needs if she wanted to because she's filled my love tank in the past and I used example of when I was training for marathon earlier this year. I told her the cards she gave me through that meant the world to me. She responded that it still wasn't enough because I didn't run. Sadly I got injured during training and wasn't able to run (which she knew about) which put me into a little bit of a depression in Aug/ Sept. I got down more because I felt like I let her and the kids down and she really pulled away at that time rather then ask how I was feeling. Now that I think about it she filed 5 days after I was supposed to run... I really need to think about other examples where she put herself out to support me and I failed.

Any feedback on today's talk because I'm just not sure how to take this all in right now. Emotions are still a little strung out though but wanted to record conversation while still fresh in my head.

[Spartan]

I was complaining about no R talk just a couple days ago and now it's been 3 days in a row and I'm spent and just want a break. She keeps initiating it but ends up saying the exact same things.

Quoting myself here but have an honest question. I've been good about not initiating R talk but when they happen she mostly keeps repeating things while I try to discuss what's on my mind. I feel like I'm pursuing a little during these talks because when we discuss R it's obvious what I want. I'm being more understanding and telling her I see her side of things and then sometimes tell her how I see the same topic which is always leaning towards reconciling. I'm trying to just plant some seeds and get her head out of the negative past but not sure if there's a better way to go. She hasn't said but I'm afraid she could see it as me trying to control the conversation. Should I just listen to her and not respond? How do you vets handle this?

[AnotherStander]

Quoting myself here but have an honest question. I've been good about not initiating R talk but when they happen she mostly keeps repeating things while I try to discuss what's on my mind. I feel like I'm pursuing a little during these talks because when we discuss R it's obvious what I want.

I agree with you, in reading the discussion it sounds like you're pursuing and trying to control the direction of the conversation. You and I both know that's not your intent and that you're trying to get your W to think differently, but the best thing to do is just stop talking and listen. Just let her talk. She's probably not going to remember what you said by tomorrow anyway. I can't believe how forgetful my wife has become, any R talks we have vanish from her mind like the morning vapor when the sun comes up.

and then sometimes tell her how I see the same topic which is always leaning towards reconciling.

Which is NOT what she wants right now. So you're telling her the two of you want different things. That's pressure. Her perception is that you're trying to make her change to your point of view, that you want things YOUR way. Again, I know all too well where you're coming from because as you know our sitches are very similar, but we have to look at this from their point of view and it's distinctly different from ours.

I'm trying to just plant some seeds and get her head out of the negative past but not sure if there's a better way to go.

I really think it's better to just not say anything. Let her talk, you listen, nod your head, say nothing. If she asks what you think then tell her you're not sure about the future and you need time and space to think about it. Because THAT is agreeing with her, THAT is telling her you're both on the same page. And after all, you DO need to think about it. Are you sure you want to have an R with the person your W has become? I think we get so bogged down in trying to get them back that we forget to ask ourselves this question.

Should I just listen to her and not respond?

Yeah, I really do think that's best.

[Spartan]

Thanks AS. Always appreciate your feedback. Through this process I as least now know what I should be doing but it's nice to hear you guys confirm it.

Are you sure you want to have an R with the person your W has become? I think we get so bogged down in trying to get them back that we forget to ask ourselves this question.

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last several days and the answer is a strong YES I DO. I don't like the tact she's currently taking and her being so cold towards everything but I'm not sure if that's the new her or just a coping mechanism she's using to get through things. I admire her new strength, her willingness to continue to work on herself, and how she's able to finally communicate her thoughts is something I really like (even if her thoughts may be way different than mine). When I look back at when I was really happy with her that's how she was and over the years I think I stole that from her. I think that's a reason I was losing feelings for her over the years. How M's fall apart is always such a tangled mess. In almost every sitch it seems like because one person doesn't swallow their pride early on when something bad starts things spiral out of control and things just build on themselves. I forced her to change and she inevitably ended up changing into someone I didn't like so I started treating her worse and she did same back.......

As least I will do my best to raise my kids to understand the principal of resolving issues when they happen. I've already started that over the last month or so and I'm starting to actually see them work things out between themselves without yelling for mom or dad. Who says a 4 and 7 year old can't understand conflict resolution

[RegretfulLA]

I really feel for you Spartan. When I read your sitch, it feels like I could have written it (except with roles reversed).

It is so hard not to pressure or insert your own agenda, when you want so badly just for her to see your point of view. I have a hard time doing that and honestly, it hasn't worked out that well for me. So you try to do better than I have. I get very impatient and I am so frustrated after years of emotional neglect, plus being a woman I am way more prone to reacting to my emotions.

However, I think it will get easier as time goes on and you learn to practice these skills. I for one have to really learn not to interfere with my H's "process", but I'm a fairly straightforward person so it's hard for me to put on that poker face and pretend that I'm indifferent when I'm not.

You are making progress with your W. She keeps bringing up the R. She is looking for a way back in, I think. She has to allow herself to change her views and it sounds like she's trying to give herself permission to do that.