My wife and I always informed each other of where we are going and when we'll be back. Even in our present situation this has not changed. Since we live together and run the house together, I think it's just common courtesy. I like this and plan to maintain it as long as I can... hopefully for the duration!
Originally Posted By: a_man_lost
...her biggest issue with me was that I was not affectionate enough, intamite or sexual. ...How can I do 180s when I can't touch her. Can't show affection. Etc!!!! To her, being detached is more of the same!
When you both are getting along well you may consider a light touch on the shoulder or such as you pass her, or open a door for her. Gauge her reaction. As long as you go slow and don't cross her boundaries you really can't go wrong here. If you're ever going to be intimate again, (which you say was her main complaint against you) you'll have to start somewhere, sometime. But only you can decide when the time is right, and it may not be for a while. Even so, she's not going to run out and file because you touched her arm too soon.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
N. I can always count on you. I will type more later to respond. I just have my iPhone right now. I had to get out of the house for a few. Big question for you, and/or everyone. So after I typed my update earlier, the wife went upstairs to shower and I went downstairs to shower. I picked a nice, not WOW but nice, collared shirt and jeans. I got showered and went to ask W WHAT what time she had to leave. She said "why are you so dressed up" I just said I just got dressed and left it at that. I found out what time I needed to be back for the kids (about an hour and a half) and said "ok, I have to run out for a bit" she said "you want to or need to? You say you NEED to alot!" I just chucked and said, ok, guess I want to, or need to, or have to." I said see ya later and left.
The question is, will she through this as being fake, or is her mind wondering?" I know now that her mood is going to be crappy when I get back. It always is when I have something to do. Silly question I know. I just don't really know anything anymore.
Don't play games AML! How old are you? Are you being fake BECAUSE that will show in your vibe? This is not about showing her two can be out. This is your marriage!
You said you needed to get out for a few (minutes I expect not pints?)good for you. Now spend this hour and half in a bar somewhere sorting that vibe out. You can't ACT this, you have to BE this. It's about where you're COMING from as much as what you DO
She'll smell desperation, fakiness, game playing. She's going to be really crappy, I reckon. But you did this. You can only control you and you chose to do this.
And it is fake. Obviously. You are doing it for the sole purpose of making her feel the same way that you do when she goes out. It's transparent.
Stop playing games.
You can't do anything until you decide what you want to do. You say that one minute you think that you can't go on like this and then the next you want to fix it. Decide man. Make a decision. Then make a plan on how to accomplish that.
Your #1 180 should be stopping the game playing with your W.
#2 should be to stop these passive aggressive conversations that the two of you have. Sounds like you are both guilty, but you need to take the lead to stop them.
Do some thinking about what unconditional love means to you.
Because right now? You seem to only want to love your W if she is doing things your way. That is conditional love.
You have a long way to go here to get your head around this DB thing. You are fortunate in that your W is still with you in your home. You do have a chance. But you are blowing it.
You need to reset and get this figured out quickly.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
First off thanks so much for the 2x4s. I am grateful that I have you 2 following my posts. Understand what I am about to type may come off as being an a-hole, but it is no way attacking anyone on here, its simply my extreme frustration coming out.
When I said yesterday that I needed to get out of the house. I meant it. If I would have stayed here a minute longer, I would have lost my damn mind and probably said something I would regret. Either I would have either blasted the W or I would have backslide! Either way, it had to be done.
Originally Posted By: Tumbling
Don't play games AML! How old are you? Are you being fake BECAUSE that will show in your vibe? This is not about showing her two can be out.
I in no way consciously intended on playing any type of game with my wife. I put on a nice shirt and jeans because I really have no "in between" clothes. I have always worried about clothes for the family and not myself. I either have the everyday lounge around clothes, or nice ones. According to the 37 rules, I should always look my best. Thats what I did. I am being fake because I really have nowhere to go alone. The only real friends I have are the friends that are here in my neighborhood. They are all married with families. So when I go out, its usually to a bar to have a couple of pints or sadly, just to drive around thinking. Deep down however, I guess there is always the thought of “Game Playing”. I simply wanted her to feel that I to had a life and wasn’t going to do the same things I had the last time she said she wanted a D and moved out last year. The chasing, begging, pleading, etc. Which I haven’t done this time.
Denver,
What do you mean by stopping the ”passive aggressive conversations“? Am I not supposed to talk with her about the day to days? I am confused. One minute, I am being told to continue conversations with W, the next Detach. Please elaborate on this! I am really confused. I know what unconditional love is. Do you think I would still be here through all her BS if it wasn’t unconditional? I think we all get pissed when our WAW is acting like a Jacka$$ in our eyes. Didn’t you?
Update:
So W was leaving for her Jewelry Party last night and we said our goodbyes. I had mentioned that I was probably going to take the kids to the movies and she kind of snarled because the cost of the movies. Kind of questioned me about it. (Money is very tight right now) . Anyway, I said I know money is tight but the kids deserve to get out of the house. D15 was going to be late because of a band competition about 3 hours away. I asked what time D was going to be home and she said around 2 am or so. I said OK, I would wait up for her and said something about latching the door when D got home (We have one of those security latches on the front door) I said since W said she would not be home, I was going to latch it. (Not real sure how it came up). She said, “I will be home before D15!” Confused I said’ you told me earlier that you would not be home tonight so I assumed that you would get back sometime tomorrow when we were all up.” She said that she had said something different. I said ok then, I will leave it unlatched. And she left. I chose not to take the kids to the movies and instead, rented movies for us to watch at the house. D4 and I both fell asleep watching movie, so about 1 am, I put her to bed and waited up for D15 to arrive. No surprise, W wasn’t home yet. I laid around waiting for D15 to arrive home. At about 4 am, wife came home. I was outside and I said hello, and asked if she had heard from D yet. (I didn’t say anything about the time) We both figured she would be home by now but since it was so far away, we figured it was ok. D15 was riding with our neighbor whose daughter is also in the band. We both walked inside and wife began to talk to me about winning a prize at the jewelry party. I acknowledged and listened, but didn’t say anything. I asked her to call D15 and see where she was, and if she was planning on waiting up for her. She said yes so I said ok, good night and went to bed.
So deep down, I am really starting to think there may be someone else in the picture. I can’t prove it of course and I know she is never going to tell me. I am having a hard time putting up with what I feel is total manipulation. I said it before, she seems to feel perfectly content of being in this house with a roommate. A roommate who pays the bills, buys the groceries, does most of the housework, entertains the kids, etc…. She is free to do what she wants, stay out as late as she wants, with minimal responsibilities.
How do I break this cake eating when I do everything for the kids, she is just able to reap the benefits. I cant stop buying groceries. I cant stop paying the bills. I cant stop cleaning the house. But then if I ask her to do something, Im the a$$hole! If I had hair, I would have long ago ripped it out.
Enough for now. Going to take the kids fishing. I have a lot more questions so I will try to journal throughout the day and post again tonight.
1. You need to find a place where you are comfortable to go alone, we all need sanctuaries from our sitch.
2. This is a passive aggressive comment made by your wife "I'm not sure why I tell you where I'm going, but at least I tell you"
3. You are allowing her to do the no-responsibility room-mate thing. People treat us the way we teach them. Things will get as good as you can stand.
4. She was really excited about winning a prize, if there was something going on I think that wouldn't have been so high in her thoughts.
5. Is SHE calling you an a$$hole when you ask for help w house stuff? Have you tried - I'm really struggling with x is there any chance you could Y this week? And then drop it.
6. Game-playing in any shape or form is a no-no. You can not effect a reaction in someone else. The only person you can control/effect is YOU - that includes thoughts, feelings and behavior.
Hope you caught a BIG fish.
ME41 H39 T12 M9 Ilybinilwy 10/2010 H moves out 11/2010 H moves in 09/2011 out 11/2011 Try to fix it alone, give up 07/2012 Tumbling to file 02/01/2013 :-) "Strong on the inside, soft on the outside"
What do you mean by stopping the ”passive aggressive conversations“? Am I not supposed to talk with her about the day to days? I am confused. One minute, I am being told to continue conversations with W, the next Detach. Please elaborate on this! I am really confused. I know what unconditional love is. Do you think I would still be here through all her BS if it wasn’t unconditional? I think we all get pissed when our WAW is acting like a Jacka$$ in our eyes. Didn’t you?
There were times, yes. But I realized very early on, that I had no control over her choices or actions. Nor did I have any say about them once she left the marriage. I also realized that any anger that I did feel, was really just a manifestation of the hurt that I was feeling.
I learned that anger was basically a useless emotion. A waste of my energy. And it never solved a damn thing. It only made things worse.
That is why I see these interactions that you have with your W as so frustrating. It is clear that you are pissed. It is not helping you or your situation. It is only driving the wedge between you and your W deeper... making the distance between the two of you farther.
I told you to stop with the passive aggressive arguments. I do think that both you and your W are doing it. Tumbling pointed out one passive aggressive statement made by your W. I also think what you described about the conversation about how you were dressed was passive aggressive. Or when you asked her if she wanted you to tell her where you are going. I've seen a number of things where I'm just wondering, "why doesn't he just tell her?"
You told us why you were dressed the way that you were. You don't have clothes in the middle of casual and dress. Why didn't you just say that to her?
Instead of asking her if she wants you to tell her where you are going, why don't you just start telling her?
It's like you are trying to get a response from her. Start a conversation/argument. Show her that you can hurt her too. Show her that you can make her suspicious of you just like you are of her.
I simply don't think that that is a good way to go about this.
You have one of two choices IMO. 1) Stop conversing with her altogether, ie, go dim on her. I'd say dark, but you still live in the same home and have 4 kids. Very difficult to go dark. But you can stop having all non-kid, non-home, related conversations. That means knocking off all of these interactions with between the two of you. Don't ask her how her day was, don't ask her where she's been, don't ask her when she'll be around (unless it is necessary for the kids), absolutely no R talk... you just live your life, and she lives hers. OR 2) start making all of your interactions positive ones. This route also requires that you stop R talk. And it also somewhat requires that you go about your life. But you can just simply be her friend.
What the two of you are doing now simply isn't going to work. It's just going to continue to spiral downward.
And yes, I'd be suspicious that there is an OM. But nothing you can do about that. How would it change what you are doing if you found out for sure that she was seeing an OM?
As for unconditional love... well, I disagree with you on how you define that. Personally, I'd never thought about what it really meant until my W had left me and until I had really spent some time reading different things, and truly thinking about what it means to love someone unconditionally.
We have unconditional love for our children... that is easy. Unconditional love for anyone else is very difficult. It is human nature to subconsciously expect something in return for our love. It is clear to me that that is still where you are. I'm not saying that that is wrong or bad... I'm just saying that I don't see you making the decision to stand for your M, let your W travel her path, seek her own happiness, and to wait to see if her path reconnects with your's down the road.
The best post that I read about unconditional love was the following by Truegritter. Take some time to read it and really think about it.
"THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION
It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.
Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?
The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.
This is the step I was missing!
IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.
You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"
In the beginning we want answers.
Why did this happen?
How could they do this? Who am I? What do I believe in? What do my vows mean to me? Why do I hurt?
And the BIG ONE...
What is it about ME that made them leave?
IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...
It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.
Then you start to look inside....
Then you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...
You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...
It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.
It is about YOU.
I have been trying to figure out what is the source of my wanting to escape, my anxiousness, my dread my fear.
And it is the WHAT IF?
the conditions I place on my life.
What IF W doesn't come back THEN? What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN? What IF I make this decision THEN What?
If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.
When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?
It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs
I am paralyzed because of BUTs.
I know what I need to kill now.
When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.
If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...
What was (and you have learned from it) What is (Your truth) What is to come (through living your truth)
There is no regret.
No second guessing.
No doubt.
The only way to fail is to fail yourself.
Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.
An essential step.
An understanding.
An awakening of sorts.
I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.
I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.
We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors
We want our M back
We want our spouse to want us back
We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option
We want to ease our own pain
We want our own self esteem back
We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior
We want ________ because we get _________ in return.
We STAND on these principles.
We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.
From family, friends and
from ourselves.
Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.
It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.
We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.
So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.
As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.
Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.
Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.
We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.
It is then that the MIRACLE happens.
Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout
of green punches through...
This growth is something new and it
is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it
For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before
it took root.
But it did take root and
it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.
The miracle is the love for yourself.
You are no longer the choices your spouse makes
You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not
You are no longer the failures you see in yourself
You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.
Then you a FREE
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
What I am speaking of really is love.
This is a choice.
As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.
I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.
To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.
I did have to do that for a time.
The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.
When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.
Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.
To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.
Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:
your spouse decided to come back or decided to be nice to you Or wasn't mean to you Or agreed with you or stopped seeing OP or ANY F@CKING THING.
It is YOUR choice
That is the light that shines.
That is the miracle of which I speak
If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.
That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.
If they call you.
Why would you not answer that call?
Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.
My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.
For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.
For me that means to be the man I am now becoming."
DB is not about forcing our spouses to return to us or to love us. It is about looking at ourselves and our shortcomings, the love that we have for our spouse, and making changes for us... I also think that it is about recognizing that our spouses have a journey to go on as well. DB is about standing for your M, but understanding that we cannot will our spouse to want us in return... we live our lives, we try to find some peace and happiness, we work on becoming better people, and we give our spouse the same opportunity.
I can tell you for a fact that my W and I both grew as people during our S. We are both different, better, than when she left me. Our M seems to be much better as a result. Like I have said to her many times, it was the best thing that ever happened to me and our marriage. It was hard, the most difficult thing that I have ever gone through. I made choices that I never thought that I would. I endured pain that I didn't know possible. I fought for my M in a much different way than I ever imagined that I'd have to. But I survived and I came through it better.
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.” Teddy Roosevelt
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Sooooo. Couple of good detached days. No passive aggressive talks from me. No game playing. Cheerful ALL THE TIME, a few really good conversations and interactions with wife... On my end.
Her, well still going where she pleases, when she pleases, still cake eating, spending money, staying out till 2 am or 4 am! I have continued to act "as-if". I go to work, come home early and find things to do with the kids, stay out of her way. Give her space. Let her do her thing.
Tonight it ALL WENT TO SH!T. Somewhere the R conversation came up mutually. I simply listened, until I could not anymore. There is only so much "you are the complete blame" one man can take. Still calm, I tried to accept my portion and explain I am not perfect, but I'm pretty god damn good. She of course accepted nothing. She pretty much said none of this was her fault.
I had had enough of being called a "f'n a$$hole" and I got the paperwork for divorce and told her to sign it. I was calm through the whole thing. She refused to sign. I asked what she wanted and of course she wanted me to move out, alimony, child support, EVERYTHING. I explained the only thing I wanted was joint (50/50) physical custody of the kids and she pretty much told me that I didn't rate 50/50. I asked her what made her think she rated full custody. After being pretty much called everything in the book, I left. I went downstairs and she soon followed. That's when she said " I f'n hate you and hope you f'n die in a fiery crash"!
PAPERWORK AND LAWYER TOMORROW.
I truly appreciate everyone help. But it's irreversible now!
