busted affair again!

[25yearsmlc]

here is a post from a WAW who had an LBSer h, and that h felt he had made changes

that were sufficient for his WAW to return...here's what that WAW said...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.

I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
__________

[newman7977]

25 thanks for the time keeping me in check, here are my responses:

Journal:

Yesterday, like any other weekends started extra focus on 180s, GAL, & detachment. Weekends are normally tougher to focus on these things because I'm with w pretty much all day.

Why don't you GAL with a child of yours? Get away from w and give her a break and give her some space AND let her see your child return with a happy smile.


That was my original plan, but thought I'd be cordial to W and invite her where she said yes. I'm really ok if she doesn't go but it did felt good that she was with us.

Yesterday sat (9/28) rode my bike in the morning. We then went to funeral service. At this service, I kept my 180s by being independent.
I usually follow my W's lead in any gathering but this time I was a big boy. I didn't follow her around if I didn't like to.


this^^^ change is mandatory. The behavior you are describing puts your wife in a Parent mode and that's not healthy or attractive. So I'm glad you see this. Also, did your w need comforting at this funeral? IF SO, it'd be nice if she had a partner she could lean on, instead of another child to care for...

Yes I thought about putting my arms around her but I didn't want her to feel awkward. She doesn't want me to touch her at all...she recoils. In the same feeling i didn't want to feel rejected.


I don't know how to explain this but at one point s13 and I ended up in a good spot (sorry didn't mean to be insensitive abou the funeral) but a good spot where I can hear the grieving H's speech. Before you know it here comes my W standing next to me, in a few more occasions my w was following me around. I say this because I feel good and for once I can make my decision--maybe I'm finally detaching?

Maybe...or you are becoming more aware of how needy it is for you have her handling your social behaviors.


Well I really felt independent more than needy, in the past I really dependent on her. More like complacency. But these days I'm starting to feel more of an individual rather than always counting on her.

We went to dinner after that--a few observations from W, pretty much all day that I would noticed she would be blanked out then try to brush it off. I think what's happening is the withdrawal from OM. It sux but what can I do? [/s]

Stop mind reading. Really, just focus on YOUR WORK ON YOU b/c it's the only thing you can control and from your description, you have some work to do.


Crap I fell for mindreading you're right...


Today sun (9/30): another good day, nothing really extraordinary other than consistent 180s. It was FILs bday so we took him out to eat lunch. We had a good time, s3 pretty much kept me busy, this is actually the first time in a long time my W had a peaceful lunch since s3 was just all over me. Sometimes I feel bad that my w might feel left out because s3 kept looking for me. I think I have to watch this because I don't want my w to feel left out with the kids. Is there such a thing of overdoing my 180s wih the kids?

NO there's not an overdoing being with your kids, in this^^^ context. Your wife got a break so she could have a nice lunch. That's a good thing, period.

Her feeling left out is NOT YOUR problem - AND it's your mind reading so it's likely not even true AND even if it were, so what?

You are doing way too much mind reading. Just stop it.

Focus on your work on you...I cannot stress that enough. YOU WASTE time and energy by not looking in the mirror for what to work on...


But this is really what I feel, especially knowing that my future my mean I'll only see them 50% of the time...this 180 is sincere.


Stop letting your fears and projections about tomorrow, decide your life's happiness TODAY.

Yep definitely fears of the unknown for sure and TODAY will be my focus...I keep anticipating tomorrow.

You are creating a lot of the chaos in your life right now.

Well my life is chaotic already anyway, but you're right I'm creating extra waves.

Your wife said she wants to make it work.

She is trying I see it and really appreciate her doing so.

Your wife apologized for an EA/possible PA and has ended it.

I just have trust issues on this that I got to work on. She said these lines before last year and this year too. 25 she breach my trust. Does the LBS eff'd up so bad that he's NOT entitled to have TRUST issues? Like any hurt feelings, we have to get over this and will take time. I choose to forgive and it's taking me some time to trust her again but it's coming back i feel it.

Your wife has made several loving gestures to you.

YOU keep obesssing about OM and "what if?" and letting your wounded ego make YOU feel bad...and then staring at your w and mind reading, almost ALL of which is negative...

so, who is damaging the family NOW?

You are...

I think you telling her sibling about the EA was a huge mistake and it got you nowhere. In fact you're surprised they did not tell the rest of the family but to me

they're smart. They were able to see that the more people who know, the harder it is for your w to believe YOU can get past this. If you want to keep the road home, paved and smooth...then STHU.

Your inlaws may resent you for trying make her look bad and you must realize that making her look bad, OR TRYING TO,

does not make you look good. Don't forget, your d, and your inlaws witnessed the marriage and in some eyes, you don't look so great.

So keep the marital issues IN the marriage. Don't be the obstacle to reconciliation. Back off and show her loving detachment.

I don't tell anyone and not planning on telling anyone else. I do regret telling my mom and sister, it was a reaction that i didn't think through. I know deep down they don't want me to get hurt. I don't even mention the sitch to them and my SIL. Because I know what will help me is the neutral party. This community.

And you might even apologize for what your flaws are instead of harping on what SHE did and what SHE MIGHT do...

b/c if she doesn't think you can get past this, what's the point of her trying?

This is true, she told me this and concern that I wouldn't let this go. I'm working on it. I backslid big time after the second EA contact.

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I'm trying to break that wall to get to my W's emotion back (one of my goals) I think I have the recipe to slowly chip that away (by keeping the light talks with W, her work, kids). Please point it out to me if this is some kind of pursuing.

It's both pursuit and manipulation. Why not focus on how to be a better h and dad? Let her learn to relax around you and NOT with expectations on your end.

Ok I thought this would be a good goal. I'm trying to give her what OM gave her an emotional support. I thought this would be ok. I can be a good dad, and proving that now I'm confident about it. But a good H, I don't know anymore. I thought I was doing good but from your observations I haven't done anything good as a H. I'm confused, what can I do? I'm giving her space like she'd asked me too, I'm not touching her per her wishes, I'm helping in the house, I'm helping with the kids, I'm more independent etc. The other thing that I know a H would do is to display affection, love, going out, sleeping in the same bed but I can't do these things right now because of the sitch. What else can I do?

Build on the times where no conflict arises, then keep things warm and light. Then build on relaxing around each other. Rent comedies, or go to one. Who said you can't take her out to something as long as it's not overtly romantic?

Ok ^^^this is what I've been trying to do the laughter and no conflicts except to going out. She won't go out with me unless the kids are there. She doesn't want anything to do with me solo.

Laugh together. It is a bonding experience and as long as you don't stare at her to take the R temperature, she can learn to have FUN with you around

and not think she has to be intimate later on.

Can you just give her love, and not feel (or show) disappointment when you don't get sex in return? Can you Focus on giving, without getting?
[/color]

I want to get some of her emotions back before OM tries to contact her. As far as i know, Its almost a month since the last contact with OM. if it is I suspect OM is getting desperate and will try to lure my w again. It is really up to her how she would handle this. I honestly feel that she would be a fool to choose OM. And I'm hoping some of our positives will be enough to deflect OMs advances.

^^^this is all about you manipulating to control the outcome. ALL this energy could be spent on YOU building bonding experiences but instead you worry about the outcome...ie what you will get and when.

Do you understand what I mean here?

Ironically, you need to work on controlling how controlling you are.


Anyway,I feel better, I feel good, my kids reciprocate my love. In some ways I feel complete and of course the pain of the sitch is still there but neverthe less i feel better.

Why wouldn't you feel "Complete"? If you think you "need" your w to feel complete, you ought to discuss that with an IC.
[color:#333399]
[color:#333399]What I meant about not feeling complete is my W's love is missing. It left me a gaping hole in my heart. It's just it I feel something is missing. 18yrs and all of a sudden that person is not the same...that's what I mean. Yes I'll bring it up to my IC.[/color]

There's no shame in that. But clearly your self esteem is far too attached to what you think she thinks...and that's giving someone else too much power AND it's also an abdication of your own responsibilities.

You control your happiness and you ought to be in charge of how you socially interact instead of hoping your w can lead you.


Complacency in gatherings and lazyness on my part. I just settled at my W to do all the talking. I am working on this. I'm an individual, I can't explain it. At work, since my W is not there I interact I have no choice. I'm an individual if that make sense.

This is sexist but IMO, the truth is, few women want to parent their h's.

MOSTLY, We don't want to lead. We want to partner with our h's or be lead by them, although always lovingly.
[/color]

I hope these feelings doesn't dip down, the good thing is that I have control to handle these feelings.

Yes you can control these feelings so you don't have to "hope" they don't dip down, etc. Take charge of your life and that will begin with emotional control of your own behavior.

Oh one more thing, for the first time since the bomb, my w actually hit me on my shoulders while we attended back to school night at s13's school last week. I was kidding around with her didn't even remember what it was but out of her laughter she hit me...that remind me back in the days when we were dating. I think I can claim this as an action base on emotion. I'll take it as a small response from my work in a month lol.

Geez one month, and a hit on the shoulders...there's a LOT of work to do. But it's ok as long as I see little improvements it's worth it.

Newman

How long do you think she felt alone in the m? How long were her needs unmet? I think you know It was more than one month.


And let me ask you this question...it's a tough one but really try to be honest...

are you sure you want to reconcile, or are you just not wanting to lose to OM?

I want to reconcile 25, I really do. Thats why I'm here and don't need any more effs up, I need help I recognize that. It's been mentioned here on the boards it's mR will not go nowhere if the OP is in the relationship and to cut all contacts with OP and I believe that. I just want to work my R with my W without OM's influence is that too hard to ask? Honestly it's not about OM winning or me winning. I just want that chance with my W. I know I eff'd up big time in the past I can't get that back and fix, but I just want a chance and if my W still feels she can not be with me, I will respect that and will move on.

I mean, let's be brutally honest for one minute.

You admit that your w DID tell you she was not happy many times. You did not change.

So, why did it take OM to get you to wake up and take it seriously

Because I was an idiot. I didn't pay attention to my W's complaint. I settled, I was comfortable, I was lazy...If only I can turn back the clock I would. I understand these changes might be too late, and I get that. But hopefully she will believe me that I will NOT go back to my old ways. It is a wake up call afterall.

(AND play the victim??) Even now, I'm not sure what positive behaviors you are doing as a h to counter her negative images. I know you are now paying attention to the children more, but as a man, as a partner , how are you showing her that marriage to you can be better and different?

Yes the victim card, I got to change this. Again this is where I get confused. I thought I was doing good giving her space, no pressure, no pursuit, no Ily's, no touching etc...The hugs, cuddling, kisses, affection these things I can't do right now. I mentioned some 180s...what else can I do? Help me out.

IOW

Do you want HER back or do you just want to "win"?

I want her back I truly do. I miss her more than anything. This is why I'm here to do it the right way. I couldn't do it myself, I did all the wrong things.

I know I messed up in my M, she did too it's really both of us. Ok she was more unhappy than i was. I thought we have a good M that had that normal ups and downs just like everyone else.

There are times I felt unhappy, like I felt I wasn't her priority or I felt lonely but I didn't got tangled with OP. That was her decision. I know we are different, she needed to fulfill her needs emotionally.

Perhaps it is part of my upbringing that an A is a dealbreaker. But my mentality has changed, I have kids that will get affected by a D. So even though I got hurt by her actions I chose to forgive. Just like you said, where the "head goes the heart will follow." That's what I'm doing for forgiveness. But just like the consistent changes that the LBS' do, forgiveness also take time.

I realize I have to forgive to really save my M. I've got a lot of valuable information in this site and in the last 18 months of this ordeal I really got tested and I grew and learn a lot about myself. I still have the old habits such as the anger, controlling, and insecurities to work on.

25 thanks for taking the time with me. I hope you keep me in check. I really read your post carefully and after reading and reading and reading them, the more I feel patient with my wife.

We both have to forgive I hope she finds it in her heart to forgive me as well as herself.


Newman

[newman7977]

I sent you a long post but my power outtage must have killed it.

I can recall saying this, What's the problem NOW? Your wife is trying, per YOU and you can see the efforts she is making. That's what YOU said.

She is doing no contact w/OM and SHE is making loving gestures.
So all that is missing is sex for a few weeks? Is that it?

No not just the sex, the whole her is missing her affections, love, and the person I've been accustomed to all 18yrs of my life.

Do you know how lonely your w has been in the marriage, for years?

Don't forget that. SHE has a lot of forgiving to do and I'm not sure she knows that yet. She probably has trouble expressing anger so she converts it into letting love die out...

Yes she gave up on the fights so did I. When I say fights little arguments really silly arguments that adds up through the years. She didn't confront this anymore and I think you're right she let that love die...her love for me died, those are her words.

So the problem seems to be, to me, your wounded ego and constant obsessing about OM, instead of working on you.

It's not my ego, I'm just hurt about the sitch. Why the assumption its my ego? If someone betrayed your trust and your marriage vows it hurts, there's just no way around it. These are the foundations of a M trust and love both are in turmoil right now for us. It's mostly my fears and anticipation. Because I know that if she remains in contact with OM I will not stay in the M, that's my choice. I cannot control her not to see or talk to him but I have a choice to react, and my reaction would be to get myself out of the M. But yes you are right I'm anticipating a lot, I'll try not to nd cross that bridge when that happens.

What self improvements are YOU working on?

Well for starters I'm doing a lot of 180s and been thinking about 180s every time I interact with wife and kids. I've been respectful, helping around the house, I'm exercising, I have control my anger so fa there's more work to do but I think I've done decent job so far.

Why not monitor YOUR OWN growth and ability to stay on target,

instead of what you get From her? What exactly are your 180s? Be specific.

I have by journaling my progress. I've been busier more than anything thanks to this site, it's really taking my mind off things. Yes you're right Im still expecting something back from her.

The more specific you are the easier it;ll be for you to know if you are on target.

[newman7977]

Journal:

Last night was stressful and W was really cold to me. Yep, once again the reality of life has thrown a wrench. We are stress about d17's college apps and deadlines.

I tried to be involve so I help d17 organizing deadlines and such. This seemed to annoy w. Her complaint before " I was never involve" now that I'm trying to get involve and is still not enough. Everything i do it's not right and I'm always the bad guy to her.

The worry of course are the finances, requirements and deadlines. I'm organized, my w isn't. D17 and I finally got the deadlines straight away and established some kind of a plan.

My w is stress rightfully so and so am I. I'm coping with it the best of my ability by exercising, and focusing on deadlines and not mope about it.

I say this to vent, this is the kind of stressors that put pressure in the R. This is the stuff that went on my M. I tried to give w a hug since I notice she was really stress but she pushed me away. I understand and left, of course I was hurt but I just tried to move on from it.

I don't know maybe this R is doomed. Right now there's really no R between us were just room mates. O well life goes on.

This morning I was going to put my ring on, but I thought not and didn't wear it. She hasn't been wearing hers either.

Newman

[25yearsmlc]

I'll think about it some more Newman. I'm not ignoring you.

But some things she does are not consistent with saying she wants to try.

which would confuse anyone, including you.

So let me ponder some more. But tell me this, what does SHE SAY she wants, NOW?

what does she mean when she says "She is trying" and what do YOU mean when you say she is?

[newman7977]

I'll think about it some more Newman. I'm not ignoring you.

But some things she does are not consistent with saying she wants to try.

which would confuse anyone, including you.

So let me ponder some more. But tell me this, what does SHE SAY she wants, NOW?

what does she mean when she says "She is trying" and what do YOU mean when you say she is?

25,

What she meant by "trying" is trying not to have anything to do with OM and that shes trying to get those feelings back you know the "in-love" feelings for me. When we talked R~4mos ago, she wanted to do those things back to me the kiss, affection etc...but she say she doesn't feel like it so why would she do it.

That's my argument to her before, that your not really trying because she's not initiating anything with me it's just me.

After the INILWY bomb, I begged her to try and we did dates once a month. We did for few months and she never got those feelings. But hats because she was entertaining OM.

What I did notice, is if my 6th sense is correct that when they W and OM were talking, she was really cold to me. OM really brainwashed her, heck my W did not just 180 but 360 in her thinking, and she's seem rebelling on "marriage" in general, that no one should be stuck in a M. Even her sister told me she's acting like the teenager more than D17...I never told her this, but you see the poison the OM is feeding her?

I know mind-reading but, I think sometimes we need to analyze the sitch. Anyway, going back to her complaints. It is clear to me now that anything I do doesn't matter, she told me so in one of those dates we did 4 mos ago, that if I would've done these changes a year before then maybe there was a chance--wtf is that mean, well that's the timeline before the OM. It is simply put "a little too late".

So guess what, I'm still doing these complaints even though it doesnt matter to her because these are what I recognize I've become. Especially with my kids, so I change not for her but for me and the kids. My problem is that I started to expect results, hope for R with W.

So do you see, i think I radiated my expectations here and I threw you off.

Heres some more of my analysis of he sitch, she told me that she can't commit and that even though we D, she's not gonna be with OM, partly I believe that because I don't think she will want to be far away from her kids OM lives far.

But I think what she wants in her life is the single life, independence and free to do whatever, and if she chooses to be with OM for the weekend she can do it. That's the bottom line I think she wants. They really feel like they were the true love that was stopped by moving separate ways when they were kids.

I really think she put a timeline in our R, I think she's "trying" so that she can tell everyone that she tried and her feelings never came back. So you see this is why I feel it doesn't matter what I do. It's really for me.

The only hope I have is the hope that phrase in here "believe half of what WAS would say".

I will cross the bridge when I get there, I know there's a fork in the road. But I think her timeline is 6 months from now. Either ways I'm ready reconciliation or D, I will be a better man then. I'm still shooting for miracles in that 6 months.

newman

[newman7977]

So 25 sorry for that long post, but I think that will explain her annoyance to me helping the kids or anything I do for that matter and that why I think maybe I'm over doing it???

[25yearsmlc]

So 25 sorry for that long post, but I think that will explain her annoyance to me helping the kids or anything I do for that matter and that why I think maybe I'm over doing it???

I don't know what you mean by overdoing it, vis a vis the kids. Be with them as much as possible, WHILE ALSO GAL...

and you have not been GAL nearly enough.

If your w feared losing you for real, who knows what might happen?

She has it both ways now, the kid's hugs, and the provider keeping a roof over their head

AND the romantic fantasy w/OM, that I happen to believe would end if they were to explore it more...but I'm not saying to wait for that. Just saying I don't believe those fantasy relationships solve the problems that life handed two families.

Both your families (OMs and yours) have normal problems and r issues.

You both also have Some harder issues that come from some flaws you both have that hinder effective communication, you both mind read and make the worst assumptions of each other. AND imo, Neither of you knows how to forgive either.

So do your work for you on those^^^ issues b/c you need to do that to have a happy healthy r with any woman.


But hey, those two (OM and your w) being together is not a long term deal, and pragmatically you already know that. Heck, even SHE knows that.

Sometimes I wonder...

I MIGHT back off and let her contact OM if she's so convinced he's the right man for her.

(But If I were you, I'd FIRST see a L and make plans for a legal separation too...)

OR If you can't handle that^^^, and I don't know that you can, you MIGHT keep the NC rule for OM and GAL as if your w is a roomate and make plans for going OUT

and she can sit one night and you can another night or get a sitter for your night out and take two some weekends...be mysterious.

In short, Take your power back.

Not with temper tantrums, but with the calm certainty that you are a good catch, b/c you get it now.

You are not the same man you were before. You've had "an awakening" and are a great h and dad now, and that it's her loss more than yours.

But you need to believe this for it to work. Make sense?

[newman7977]

25,

Really appreciate your guidance on all this. That part where you said "hinder effective communication", thats also what SIL told us. She's a therapist, thats why I told her the EA. This is spot on, I think I need to give you more background starting year 1 of 18--lol j/k, just on the shift of the R, April 2011. Anyway, I'll touch base more on this after work, don't have much time this morning.

I think it's time for new thread. Looks like people are just cutting and pasting the URL in the new thread?

Newman