busted affair again!

[adinva]

Just be aware that this site is primarily about Divorce Busting and that advice runs counter to Divorce Busting.

[25yearsmlc]

Journaling--

I had dinner with W today even after what happened. She wanted to talk. I said ok so we had dinner. After I found out her meeting with the OM yesterday I told her family this morning.

Her sister talked with her and seemed to knock some sense out of her that D or not the EA has to stop. It seemed that her sister put her down to reality from her fantasyland. W said ok and promise will cut all contact with this OM while she work on us. She emailed him and cc me on it saying its done.

I'm giving her space and right now we decided to sleep in different rooms. I told her to get out of MB and after that I felt bad and told her we will switch off. I don't know how long we will make this sleeping arrangements. We will see family therapist. We are seeing IC now. W diagnosed with severe depression.

I originally kick her out of the house out of my anger in light of yesterday's EA but now looks like we will live in same roof.


what is your goal? Is it to punish your wife, or to save your marriage? Have you read the Divorce Busting book or the Divorce Remedy books?

Please read them asap...


Any thoughts on my sitch so far? How do I continue to GAL now that she seem she would work on us? I'll keep my 180s which is to daily spent time at least 30 mins each of my kids after work. I'm also exercising a lot. She told her sister that she sees the changes in me but fear of I'm only using these as tactics.

I feel really good about myself, not the needy, depressed person few months ago. Even my therapist validated that I'm doing the right thing. So props to this site and DR book.

Btw, I gave my wife to read 5LL, is this Ok? I didn't see anything there to see as tactics but I think the book will understand her feelings better.

the books are usually for YOU to change YOU...

and you say you just realized what her love languages are, after 18 years of marriage.

What is it you are working on as a husband, so she'll see you as the better choice?

[unbidden]

Look at trying to go to Retrouvaille weekend with your wife. See www.helpourmarriage.org.

[25yearsmlc]

Journaling~~

Another positive night. I got home tonight and W is running late from work. So I took the kids and bought dinner. Took all 3 of them with me. So whats the big deal? Well, the old me wouldn't have done this, the old me would've waited for the W to get home and make her buy dinner, yes sad to say but that was me. By the time I got home buying food W was home. No biggie for her and I realized she's seeing it and she just don't want to admit it--like she said before "a little too late". If she doesn't see it that still fine since my kids and I had a great time driving. We all ate dinner and that's that, WE WERE ALL HUNGRY


glad you see that it's not a big deal but it IS a 180 for you, so good for you. Just understand that ONE gesture that most people think is normal,

isn't going to turn around 18 years of behavior that doesn't match. Give your 180s time

b/c you can counter her negatives with positives. Make sure you don't fuel her reasons for leaving.



A couple of things though in the middle of getting dinner and post dinner. I texted W to see if she will eat before she gets home, she didn't reply right away so I called for dinner. But while I was phoning the order she text me, call my cell, and called the house phone. D17 answered since I was on the phone ordering food. I can hear in the background the people from her work it's almost like telling me that look I'm really at work don't you hear my coworkers, I'm not with OM? I don't know what to make of this but atleast she's making me aware that she's really at work? Maybe she's trying to win my trust again?

Read nothing into this^^^...if it was meant for anyone, it may have been meant for your d17.

The second thing is that I brought up the S talk.


why???


We were suppose to start tomorrow, and she's suppose to leave.


if she shows doubt or a wish to delay, why would you push for her to leave?

-- I replied and said "well I'm thinking maybe we should put it off until we see counseling"? So we're basically answering questions with questions. So she also said "yes, I think TS is good idea but I think we need to do it correctly with counseling help." I left it at that so for now our TS is on hold.

So now we're back in the same spot, living in the same roof, but I did tell her that I don't know how would I react if this EA happen again, and that I won't be a part of this love triangle. And she assured me it won't happen again that this is a wake up call for her.

WHY are you bringing this up now? What was the goal?


We talked briefly about our R, and I basically said so now we'll try again? Bad move Newman, I knew the answer to that, and her answer is "well it's not that I want to but, I don't hate you but I don't know if my feelings would return." And I got sucked in more, and I said "well the EA, I'm not owning up to, that was your decision. But what I'm owning up to is creating your feelings the way you felt" and she said she's really sorry for what happened." It was getting in deeper getting emotional and then that's when I decided to shut up, and I said ok and left the MB.

So it goes--

So, what will YOU do DIFFERENTLY,

to show her that marriage to you can be different and better?

B/c THAT IS THE KEY....

Thanks again everyone! You have no idea how this is really helping me cope with this painful part of my life. But I feel as even if our R don't work out, I will be a better man by then. I'm learning so much about myself. I normally don't spill my guts to anyone not even my friends and here I am spilling everything to save my marriage. Much respect to the WAW and LBS here in DB!

Newman

to restate my premise,

your wife will not come back to the marriage and really do the work

unless she believes that marriage to you can be better/different than before.

YOU have to show her that. In concrete ways, not more of the same.

make sense?


I urge you to get the tools for rebuilding the marriage by doing something like

Retrovaille. You glossed over it but frankly, if you have been spending this much time "working on things" with no results, then clearly

you need some tools you both lack. She needs you to take the lead, imo.

Retrovaille is a weekend retreat (w/a follow up program) for couples in crisis.

It's very very good. I highly recommend it.

[25yearsmlc]

do NOT contact OMs' wife. OMG...have you read the DB and DR books?

Did you read about that part? B/C it goes against it A LOT and for good reason. MANY good reasons I won't go into if this isn't really a possibility.

But if you are seriously thinking that you'll contact some woman you don't know, about an online affair and feelings your w has for someone else's h, WHILE your w has stopped contact, it'll hurt her deeply. And let me point out ONE possible outcome.

It may end their marriage, which will free her h up for your wife...

Plus, I think You're acting out of anger and a desire to control your w and the outcome. That sounds like being someone you do not want to be.

Just stick with the work you need to do on YOU.

And read Sandi's post again, please.

Your wife is depressed and I hope she's getting treatment. BTW, did you know that 90% of women on anti-depressants have h's who are considered "critical".

Her depression is HER problem, true. But don't keep trying to maneuver this. Just work on you and give her something to miss.

Retrovaille is something WELL worth looking into and I think she might be willing to go.

Even if it's "just for the sake of the kids", get her there. It won't hurt...

[Denver_2010]

Fade thanks for your input definitely take it to consideration. Yes the separation is on hold for now. I'm glad we did as seem like the consensus point out to not a good idea for now.

I just found out not everyone knows from her family just SIL and her husband. But yes that also crossed my mind about telling OM's wife, I think if I would've have the contact number of OMs W that time I blew a gasket I probably would've called her.

DEAR LORD... HOW DID I MISS THIS POST??

DO NOT do this Newman. It has a much better chance of completely blowing up in your face than working. If the EA continues, the OM will be exposed eventually anyway.

What you are doing... much of it... is CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR. This may be why your W is wanting to pull away from you. You should look into this and the role that it has played in your M.

[newman7977]

Fade thanks for your input definitely take it to consideration. Yes the separation is on hold for now. I'm glad we did as seem like the consensus point out to not a good idea for now.

I just found out not everyone knows from her family just SIL and her husband. But yes that also crossed my mind about telling OM's wife, I think if I would've have the contact number of OMs W that time I blew a gasket I probably would've called her.

DEAR LORD... HOW DID I MISS THIS POST??

DO NOT do this Newman. It has a much better chance of completely blowing up in your face than working. If the EA continues, the OM will be exposed eventually anyway.

What you are doing... much of it... is CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR. This may be why your W is wanting to pull away from you. You should look into this and the role that it has played in your M.

Ok I'm trying this box quote thingy.

Denver, MLC, and Adinva,
I'm not planning on contacting the OM's wife now, that was when everything blew up last week when it crossed my mind. I should've finished my thoughts when I replied about this. But what I thought is that now I'm in the better place here in DB forum, next time anything happen like that I'd definitely post here first. No more irrational moves--I hope.

Newman

[newman7977]

Just have a q-- during the last 4 mos, I have mentioned to W aboutme reading a lot on the net and books. And even offered her some of the advice that she should find happiness within herself etc. At one point, I think sarcastically she mentioned what about an affair do you have a book on ending an affair? And now I know anything from me she would see as no genuine maybe I can guide my SIL on a good book to read for her, any suggestions? Maybe coming from SIL will not be too bad?

The trap door that will catch you every time is this: you just want to try and "reason" with her. That's how men get caught in a R talk, b/c they can't give up trying to reach her sensibility. When that doesn't work, then the H wants somebody else to talk his W into staying in the M. Again, this is all very common from what we read from the posters here on the board.

Here's my advice about your SIL. Don't make any suggestions to her about what to say to your W. I know you feel desperate to get the right information into the hands of your W, but you can't be behind the curtains (so to speak) giving clues or instructions to your SIL as to what to say.

Ok it makes sense, just wanted to see your thoughts if someone other than the H try to help to break the A.would be helpful.

Even though your W is still in an A fog, she still knows you (and her sister) very well. She'll see through it and she'll reject it as soon as she figures out you were behind it. I don't think your W will stay with her if your SIS tries to get her to read, talk, hear, or watch anything about M. Your W will just want her sister to "listen".....not advise.

A lot depends upon timing. Nobody could reach me in the beginning of my EA. Everything my H did to make a "point" for the M.....turned my stomach. He could pass by a picture of our grandchild and make a remark about how precious she was....and I'd feel like it was his way of getting a message about the importance of family & marriage to me. Of course, I resented the heck out of it! It actually sickened me whenever he pulled a stunt like that. I knew him! I knew what he was doing! That's why suggesting books or videos, etc., is not accepted warmly by the WAW. Even if she seems to be considering ending the A, you cannot afford to try to get her to read what "you" think would be good for her.

Yeah I pulled a stunt like your H did early this year. I found pictures and cards that I gave her while we were dating and I reminded her that she used to love me and whatnot and how happy we look at the picture. Her response "that was a long time ago"..I was like WTH. [b][/b]

I want to encourage you to not tell your W what all you've read. Don't tell her how hard you are working to change yourself. I know you want to do that very badly, but it is the wrong thing to do. Just remember that it will pull you back to square one every time you tell her any thing like that. How will she know what you've read? That's just it, she doesn't have to know. What you really want her to understand is that you are working hard to fix what's broken. But there is only one way that works. You have to keep your mouth closed and just "become" what you learn. You don't try to reason with her through whatever information you've received. It's hard, but it's the only way.

Yep I'm giving up on that. Even reading 5LL that I gave her, in the beginning she's all in to it but now, I don't even know if she's still reading it. Also, she mentioned quality of her OM, that when they talked he was sincere and that the word of affirmations that OM said was not just to "Please" her. So in other words my words to her are just to please her--I just cant win!!

The WAW has a awful amount of resentment toward the LBH. Have your read Michele's article on the WAW Syndrome? Find it here on the home page and read it.

I read it once, I'll re-read it.

There are at least four major things your W will have to deal with, and will continue, for quite some time. Of course, one of those major things is her addiction for the EA with OM. You are very correct when you said she went through withdrawals. That is probably why they rekindled the A (if it really ever stopped)b/c it is highly addictive. Depression seems to always follow ending an A.

Also, the first time she cut contact with OM, she was really depressed I think kind of like being a drug addict (I read somewhere) and I think she went through withdrawals from OM. I think she is having withdrawals now any suggestions on this or just let her be?

IMHO, when a woman ends an A (even if she makes the decision b/c she discovers OM is a cad), she is suddenly left feeling very empty. That's a horrible experience for anyone, no matter if they are to blame or not. She doesn't have any loving feelings for her H. She just feels a huge void. It's that same void that can turn a lot of people toward another person. She will be very vulnerable. Not only will she be depressed about her life, but she feels she gave up her chance for happiness when she gave up the OM. (That's part of the fantasy.) But then, the withdrawal comes. If I had not had people on this board to coach me and tell me what was happening and what to expect, I don't know if I would have made it through my ordeal. I had never heard about the PEA chemical changes the brain experienced when having an A. If you haven't read about it, search it out on the Internet. Very interesting stuff.

This is the part I don't really understand about it. I mean I know what you're saying I just can't relate to the actual feeling. I'll think more about this.

She will go through the initial withdrawal and then hard withdrawal symptoms. If she has any contact with the OM it can pull her back to square one in withdrawing. That's why no contact by any means is so important.

I really wish she gets this no-contact business. I don't know, this is where I feel beat up. I just feel I don't stand a chance because all OM for W is her soulmate. Sometimes I feel like the bad guy from Romeo & Juliet stopping their love, because she talks about it like it's real love or something. To me ours is real love, because ours is unconditional and a lot of pressure of real life. We handled our issues before, but thats because there was no OM that brain washed her.

So, she'll experience addiction withdrawal and depression. That in itself would be enough for any MR to withstand, but there's the issue she will have with resentment. Now remember, I'm just talking about her feelings. You will have plenty of your own issues, also.

I think I'm still angry at her actions. Also, the feeling that she decided to have an affair and I'm the only one working on saving the M?! I really need strength to go on...

Whenever I read a story from a LBH who says his WAW

[newman7977]

Sorry, hit the submit button too soon.

Whenever I hear from a LBH that his WAW has ended her A and everything seems to be good after just three or four weeks.....I have a lot of doubts. Again, this is JMHO, but I don't think most women can go from an unhappy MR into an EA/PA and then jump right back into being that loving wife again in just a few weeks. I believe she has to work through her own issues, plus her and the H working on the M together before she can be the W she used to be.

She has a ton of resentment toward her H. Now, I referred to "timing" in my last post.....that is when they need to open up and talk (maybe with a MC helping them) so that the problems can be resolved and the resentments healed. Otherwise, it's going to take a long time.....and hard work, for her to be able to overcome it.

The fourth major issue is forgiveness. Yes, of course you have to be able to forgive her for the A, but so does she. I'm talking about her forgiving herself. It's the hardest thing I've ever experienced! One thing that will prevent her from forgiving herself is hanging onto resentments from the past. Not that one thing justifies the other in these cases, it's just the way it works.

It's been five years since I ended my EA. It seems a life time ago. The hardest part for me? Forgiving myself. Even now, as I type this, the tears are stinging my eyes. Sometimes the linea between guilt...forgiving...and regretting runs together and I'm not sure which is which. You will never know how much I regret what I did to myself, my M, my H, and my family! I have to live with that for the rest of my life. My H may have failed at a lot of things, but I alone carry the label of "cheater" in my M.

Sandi, this really hits home. I can almost feel what you've felt and what my W is feeling right now. Really thank you for sharing your feelings. I need to understand WAS so I can detach the right way. I'm still confuse on detaching. Maybe because I'm still angry? I'm practicing to be cordial and at the same time cordial...It's been 3 days now that I think I've detached correctly.

Anyway, that will be four of the main things your W will face in herself. It took me time to reach the place I was willing "to be willing" to put forth any effort. It took all my energy just to end the EA and stay in my house with my H. I didn't have any desire to stay, I was just doing "the right thing". Doing the right thing doesn't automatically give you the fuel you need to operate. The depression just about did me in! I asked my H to go with me to MC and he would not do it. He would not talk to anyone, but yet he wanted me to put forth 100% effort. (His words, exactly.) He had no idea what that did to me. More resentment! More depression!

So, without any professional help, (and I didn't feel like my H was willing to help b/c he said he had done nothing wrong), it took me quite a while to get to the place of putting forth any actual "effort" other than just being there. If your W asks you to go with her to therapy or MC, then please agree to do whatever it takes to work through it. Don't let stubbornness or pride get in the way of healing the M.


Be very, very patient at waiting for her to come around. You have your hell to get through, and she has her own to get through. Then there's that part you have to go through together. If she sees you being there to listen to her, and looking intently into her eyes when she's talking to you, that will mean so much! I can't tell you how far that one act will carry you. One of the first things that a H does to hurt the MR is when his W talks and he tunes her out. That is very insulting and painful to her. So, listen carefully to her, no matter how uninteresting it may be to you. DO NOT TRY TO TELL HER HOW TO FIX IT. Unless she asks you what to do, don't tell her. Most women just need to share their feelings. The man (Mr. Fixer) thinks he's suppose to solve her problems, but that just leaves her feeling frustrated. If she wants his help, she'll ask him.

I never thought I'm a Mr. Fix it in our relationship. But the more I see my actions the more I see the "fix" side of me. I'm learning and will change this.

Don't stop working on your improvements! Sure she needs to make changes, too, but if you get into finger pointing, the M will be back into serious danger zones before it has a chance to heal. She has to see that you weren't making changes just to get her back, and then stopped. She wants you to stay like that for now on. If you slack up, you'll be back here again. So be ready to be the one who steps up every day and shows her that you are the leader in the R.

Be sensitive to her feelings. You can tell if your W is down, right? Can you tell if she's had a bad day without her telling you? Okay, can you tell when she's lonely from when she wants to be alone? Do you know when you should play and kid around with her from when you know not to go there with her? Can you tell when she just wants to be held in your arms and be assured everything's going to be alright, but she doesn't want to have sex? If you don't know, then you are probably like the majority of the male population! But, you can always try to learn.

Just as you can't afford to apply any pressure now, you can't afford to do it months from now. Can you handle it? Can you be the man and have the attitude that "Honey, I love you and if you get too tired to walk, I'll carry you, but we are going to make it through this journey." That's the attitude you have to take, b/c if you start letting your male ego get in the way of the healing process....you'll have a bad time of it. You may find yourself feeling that you're the only one doing the "work" in the R. But if she's depressed and experiencing all that stuff I just talked about, then she won't have the drive like you do. It's one thing to want something and go after it with gusto, but quite another when you're just trying to do the right thing and your hearts not all the way in right now. (Most LBH's don't want to hear that, but I'm telling you the truth!)

Right now, you have the energy and desire to start pumping out whatever it takes to get her to agree to stay M. But it's that day-to-day grit that gets old and tries the patients of your soul. That's when you have to remind yourself that love is driving you....not ego. Again, I ask you, are you the man?

Your M can not only survive this, but it can be happy again. She can desire you again, and she can have the "want-to" back in the R again.

I get it no pressure, give a lot of patience. I have to practice. I'm not there yet, I'm far from it. Patience is my weakness I know I'm not patient, my W know I'm not patient. This is really testing me. Thats why I'm glad I found this board because this board is taking my mind off the obsession to all this and the same time I'm becoming more goal oriented. 4mos ago I was a wreck, I didn't have this board...I took a while to get easier. Now, it's only been a week since the latest blow up,and I'm already feeling a lot better-thanks for showing support.

[newman7977]

Journaling~~

Another positive night. I got home tonight and W is running late from work. So I took the kids and bought dinner. Took all 3 of them with me. So whats the big deal? Well, the old me wouldn't have done this, the old me would've waited for the W to get home and make her buy dinner, yes sad to say but that was me. By the time I got home buying food W was home. No biggie for her and I realized she's seeing it and she just don't want to admit it--like she said before "a little too late". If she doesn't see it that still fine since my kids and I had a great time driving. We all ate dinner and that's that, WE WERE ALL HUNGRY


glad you see that it's not a big deal but it IS a 180 for you, so good for you. Just understand that ONE gesture that most people think is normal,

isn't going to turn around 18 years of behavior that doesn't match. Give your 180s time

b/c you can counter her negatives with positives. Make sure you don't fuel her reasons for leaving.



A couple of things though in the middle of getting dinner and post dinner. I texted W to see if she will eat before she gets home, she didn't reply right away so I called for dinner. But while I was phoning the order she text me, call my cell, and called the house phone. D17 answered since I was on the phone ordering food. I can hear in the background the people from her work it's almost like telling me that look I'm really at work don't you hear my coworkers, I'm not with OM? I don't know what to make of this but atleast she's making me aware that she's really at work? Maybe she's trying to win my trust again?

Read nothing into this^^^...if it was meant for anyone, it may have been meant for your d17.

The second thing is that I brought up the S talk.


why???


We were suppose to start tomorrow, and she's suppose to leave.


if she shows doubt or a wish to delay, why would you push for her to leave?


I thought maybe if she doesn't see me she'll miss me and our family. And for her to realize that it is not what she wanted. She expressed she didn't want to be married or with me anymore, no more drive to work on our M, she doesn't feel it anymore she doesnt know how to get it back. She feels lying/pretending if she tries to hug or kiss me. So I thought, she should get a chance to see how it is. If she likes that life without me I'll accept but at least her doubts will be clear.

-- I replied and said "well I'm thinking maybe we should put it off until we see counseling"? So we're basically answering questions with questions. So she also said "yes, I think TS is good idea but I think we need to do it correctly with counseling help." I left it at that so for now our TS is on hold.

So now we're back in the same spot, living in the same roof, but I did tell her that I don't know how would I react if this EA happen again, and that I won't be a part of this love triangle. And she assured me it won't happen again that this is a wake up call for her.

WHY are you bringing this up now? What was the goal?


[b]Mainly a validation on my part to stop the EA. I know I said it once and I'll try to let it go and put the EA on the side for now.[/b]

We talked briefly about our R, and I basically said so now we'll try again? Bad move Newman, I knew the answer to that, and her answer is "well it's not that I want to but, I don't hate you but I don't know if my feelings would return." And I got sucked in more, and I said "well the EA, I'm not owning up to, that was your decision. But what I'm owning up to is creating your feelings the way you felt" and she said she's really sorry for what happened." It was getting in deeper getting emotional and then that's when I decided to shut up, and I said ok and left the MB.

So it goes--

So, what will YOU do DIFFERENTLY,

to show her that marriage to you can be different and better?

B/c THAT IS THE KEY....

Thanks again everyone! You have no idea how this is really helping me cope with this painful part of my life. But I feel as even if our R don't work out, I will be a better man by then. I'm learning so much about myself. I normally don't spill my guts to anyone not even my friends and here I am spilling everything to save my marriage. Much respect to the WAW and LBS here in DB!

Newman

to restate my premise,

your wife will not come back to the marriage and really do the work

unless she believes that marriage to you can be better/different than before.

YOU have to show her that. In concrete ways, not more of the same.

make sense?


I urge you to get the tools for rebuilding the marriage by doing something like

Retrovaille. You glossed over it but frankly, if you have been spending this much time "working on things" with no results, then clearly

you need some tools you both lack. She needs you to take the lead, imo.

Retrovaille is a weekend retreat (w/a follow up program) for couples in crisis.

It's very very good. I highly recommend it.

Yes we checked out the Retrovaille website. I'm in to it but W thought it was similar to marriage encounter. We did Marriage encounter years ago. I thought it helped us. But this time W is not receptive of anything like this but she's willing to go to MC. I'll re-open retrovaille when I feel something change in her. Thanks for your post 25yrsMLC.