Breakdown, I have read some of your sitch now. Wow. Talk about a roller coaster. You are a good man for sticking with it.
Your behavior, as you describe it, reminds me a lot of my own H. Insecure and never feeling like he was up to par in my eyes. Not speaking my LL. Tearing me down. Using sarcasm as a weapon. All of it. I have also known my H since we were 12 though we didn't start dating until we were 28.
The difference between my H and you is that he is not aware of any of these things, nor is he invested at all (at this point) in working on our M. He hasn't read one book and his IC doesn't seem to be helping him much. He is still all worked up about my prior misbehavior (sexting), for which I have apologized profusely, but hasn't seen that HIS behavior contributed. How were you able to get to the point where you could look inside and admit that you were partially to blame? How did you get over the anger you have towards your W?
What could I do or say to my H that would help him come around a bit? I am behaving much differently than your W in that I am totally kissing my H's butt. I could stand up to him but he's a lot angrier than you are and I think I need to back down as a 180.
Me43, H43 M 11, T 14 S10, S8 OA (me) 4-6/12 S 6/12 - 9/12 Piecing 1/13
Love means not giving up on someone even if they've given up on you.
"Being right is the booby prize of life." - Susan Page
Breakdown, I have read some of your sitch now. Wow. Talk about a roller coaster. You are a good man for sticking with it.
Thanks Regret. I certainly hope my W eventually agrees with you
Originally Posted By: RegretfulLA
The difference between my H and you is that he is not aware of any of these things, nor is he invested at all (at this point) in working on our M. He hasn't read one book and his IC doesn't seem to be helping him much. He is still all worked up about my prior misbehavior (sexting), for which I have apologized profusely, but hasn't seen that HIS behavior contributed. How were you able to get to the point where you could look inside and admit that you were partially to blame? How did you get over the anger you have towards your W?
These are tough questions, and it hurts my heart to think that someone else has a situation so similar.
What you describe reminds me a lot of when I discovered my W's sexting thing 5-6 years ago. I wasn't ready to accept any responsibility, only blame her...question her as to how she could do such a thing to our family. How could she be so weak with so much on the line? Had our values we'd shared for 20+ years changed so drastically? What was she teaching our children?
Looking back, that was my first big opportunity to change my behavior, to address my own brokenness. But I missed out on it. My W apologized over and over, she explained in as "exciting." I think the only thing I took on as my own at that point was maybe I wasn't paying enough attention to her. Unfortunately, for an insecure person, that isn't always a good thing to try to fix.
For me, I think I started really thinking about who I was and who I wanted to be about 6 months before the bomb. I started reading "A Journey Called You" and started thinking about a lot of things, but it was a very slow process at that point. What made me start thinking that? I don't honestly know. Maybe my age, maybe I just got tired of being unhappy, maybe I was bored, maybe it was my uncle dying, I really don't know.
After W dropped the B, my thoughts went into high gear. I dug into it like there was no tomorrow because based on my childhood, divorce was not something I wanted for my children, and I really do love this woman with all my heart.
As for the anger, about a year ago, I pulled my W aside one day and said "I know you may not need to hear this, but I need to say it....I forgive you. I forgive you for all of it...for the teenage hurts, for the time we were apart, for the texting thing, for all of it." I really did forgive her, and the anger slid away. The thing was though, I had so many hurt feelings and so much resentment from my childhood, I had to forgive my parents too. I had to forgive myself for how I had treated W and kids.
I also allowed God to play a bigger part in my life and that has helped immensely. The idea that he puts obstacles in front of us to drive change really helps me deal with my problems, and work thru them.
Originally Posted By: RegretfulLA
What could I do or say to my H that would help him come around a bit? I am behaving much differently than your W in that I am totally kissing my H's butt. I could stand up to him but he's a lot angrier than you are and I think I need to back down as a 180.
I really struggle to answer this one, as my W asks me once in a while something similar. She is always trying to figure out what she could have done along the way to make me "get it." She sometimes is mad at herself because she thinks if she would have asked for D after our first 5 years, maybe I would have fixed myself then and we'd have 10 good years under our belt now. My response to that is "I wasn't ready, so I'd have probably told you to go ahead and go....I always figured you'd leave anyway." She hates this answer, but I think it's important for her to understand she couldn't force this change....I had to want it.
On the other hand, I have a similar issue with my W, as she is really bent on blaming me for everything bad in our M. She refuses to accept any responsibility for her own negative behaviors. When she admits that something was wrong, she pushes it back on me....I forced her to do that, I mistreated her so what was she supposed to do, etc etc.
So I guess I'd say, you can't force it....they have to want to change, they have to want to listen, to understand. You have to be patient and wait for them to come around.
I will say though, I wouldn't continue to kiss your H's butt though. You apologized...it is up to him to forgive. If he's like me, that's going to be difficult, especially the first time. What you can do is stand your ground. Don't let him continue to have all the power by blaming you for everything. That just allows him to avoid his own issues.
If you are able to have calm discussions about serious topics, I think over time, you could get there kinda how Mach1 helped me break down some of my own walls. Ask deep questions, and explain your own feelings. The fact that you had an EA is just the first layer of the onion....why did you? What were you feeling? What did it give you your H didn't? Has it always been like this? Did you try to change your H? Did you try to make you H happy and eventually give up? (that one was true for my W)
Had a tough day yesterday as I mentioned in someone else's thread. The day started great, but as I was getting ready to run out for groceries, I hear W talking to her M about OM. It sounded an awful lot like they were in a relationship that wasn't working out. It was really difficult to hear. Part of it was probably my own "filling in the blanks" but I think that only applies to some.
On the bright side, she didn't try to hide while I was in the room. I think she changed the subject a few times, but she didn't have a problem talking in front of me. I guess that is good.
I kinda got into a funk about it and wasn't really upbeat for most of the day. W asked me multiple times what I was mad about and what was wrong, but I simply avoided the topic. Before we went to bed I was reading and we talked a little. She asked me why I was mad and I said "I really haven't been mad. More confused, and feeling disrespected." She asked me if I wanted to talk about it and I thought in silence for a few mins, really weighing it out, and said "No, I don't think it will help."
I couldn't really see much benefit to it honestly. She would have explained away everything she said. She might have been honest, she might have lied. I wouldn't know, and history tells me she'll be defensive and lie or omit as necessary. And at the end, I probably wouldn't feel any better and she'd see my insecurities flash in front of her again, so I just dropped it.
This is basically what Cheryl told me to do during my coaching session...just don't worry about OM for now. Generally, I'm ok with that approach, but to hear W talk about him in the detail she did makes it really really difficult.
This morning W woke up cranky...wasn't very friendly at all and I just ignored it. She came to me a few times like she wanted to talk, but then clammed up, so I just returned to my office. She asked me to sit on the patio and have coffee, which I did, but then she got up after a few mins. Before she left, she said she was cranky, stressing about work, and said she'd see me later.
Man, it'll be nice to get off this roller coaster some day.
Breakdown - I'm really impressed by the way you've handled all of this. What a lot of growth for you. You've taken the hard steps of looking inside and fixing what wasn't working. You deserve a lot of commendation. I wish my H could meet you.
Interesting to hear that you thought that your W would leave you. I know that my H thinks that for sure. It is his insecurity coming into play. For example he doesn't understand that my sexting thing had nothing to do with the actual guy and I wasn't planning on leaving him. However, about 3 years ago there WAS a guy who I might have left him for and I think that really kicked his insecurity into high gear. So now I think he's playing this game to get me to leave him.
Also of note here is that his own mother abandoned the family when he was 13 or 14 and I guarantee he has not processed that. This is playing in to our sitch for sure. One time he even started comparing me to his mother.
Ironically the only time we can really have a good discussion is after we ML. I'm still very afraid to talk to him about my feelings because he just turns it around on me eventually. He isn't endeavoring to understand where I'm coming from at all. He claims he isn't ready to work on the R and I think that's true: he doesn't know how to get where he needs to be so that he can work on the R. And he certainly won't let me help him get there.
I do know exactly why I engaged in the whole sexting thing - not only was it exciting but it made me feel wanted and validated. Not just wanted in the sexual sense, but wanted as a person. My H's contempt for me was palpable, and I was going through a tough time at work. I had a terrible boss and that coupled with my H's rejection led to almost a complete loss of self-esteem. So to have this guy interested in me felt good and I engaged in it to feel better. Plain and simple. And it worked. Of course, I didn't really realize any of this at the time.
I probably didn't put enough effort into the M. Neither of us really did. We were too caught up in what the other person wasn't doing to focus on anything good that was there. I was selfish and he was destructive. We have HORRIBLE communication together which doesn't help... let's face it, we are a mess. Now he is saying he wants to move out and we can barely cover our expenses as it is.
Your sitch gives me hope - I know it's not perfect but you are both trying hard. Keep going. I know it gets so frustrating sometimes, but that's what all of us are here for - to help when the going gets tough.
Me43, H43 M 11, T 14 S10, S8 OA (me) 4-6/12 S 6/12 - 9/12 Piecing 1/13
Love means not giving up on someone even if they've given up on you.
"Being right is the booby prize of life." - Susan Page
Thanks Regret. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it....I'm happier now than I've ever been, and my M is in shambles. How awesome is it going to be when my M isn't?!
I really feel for your H. Abandonment really tears you up, and scars you as an adult. He probably doesn't even realize it yet, which is the worst. He thinks he's strong, pushing thru, doing what he has to. You're breach of trust is a horrible horrible thing for him (sorry, but it really is...I don't think my W even comprehends how devastating it was for me). If he is anything like me, he probably never completely trusted you to start. His walls have been there all his life and he really doesn't know how to function otherwise.
How does your H behave with your kids? Is he part of their lives? Does he show a tender side with them? Or is he quick to anger and let's you do most of the parenting? I'm interested what he's planning for them. If he's like me, the very last thing he wants is for them to experience what he did, in any fashion.
Does your H read at all? I am thinking about a book a read that basically said anger is the easiest emotion to show, and that really hit the mark for me. It might be the Codependent book or it might be No More Mr. Nice Guy....I'll dig around and see if I can find it. If he does read, it could be a trigger of sorts, as it was for me to a point, but he'd have to be open to it.
I have read some of your sitch, but haven't caught up yet. I'll try to get thru it today. I'll also spend some time thinking about what I think my W could have done to help me along the path (outside of asking for D), if anything. Understanding his deep scarring might be the only thing you can do, and I do think that would help immensely, but I'll think on it.
Interesting finish to the evening so I thought I would mention it. W was cranky to start the day. Came home for 30 mins, printed some stuff and went out for an evening appt. I told her I wouldn't be here to make dinner and explained that I had a fantasy football draft I was going to.
Once W got home, she called me and I answered. She just wanted to know when I'd be home and at the end of the conversation she says "I love you" and I responded with the same. After I hung up, I was in a bit of shock. I don't think she's told me ILU in 6 months, and probably only a couple of times in the last 18 months honestly. As I thought about it, I figured she was probably worried I was with someone else and was testing me, but I really don't care what the driving force was. That's a huge step.
After about an hour, she started texting me repeatedly, asking if I'd get her some food on the way home, saying he wanted me home, and being playful about it. I stayed a little longer than I had planned because some buddies showed up, but I did get her some food and the evening ended pretty well
Thanks Breakdown. I left you a long response on my thread. Your insight is super helpful. I don't fully comprehend the effect that my breach of trust had on my H. I don't have those trust issues and I just am not capable of understanding it. Even when my X BF tried to get with my sister, we broke up, but it didn't hit me in that way.
My H does read but the only thing he's read in regards to R is "The Art of Loving" which IMO is impossible to get through and not helpful at all. You are right, he thinks he's being tough and pushing through when in reality I think he's not getting anywhere.
Oh well, as my good friend says, keep breathing...
And glad your W is coming around :-D
Me43, H43 M 11, T 14 S10, S8 OA (me) 4-6/12 S 6/12 - 9/12 Piecing 1/13
Love means not giving up on someone even if they've given up on you.
"Being right is the booby prize of life." - Susan Page
W says to me last night "Seether is coming to town" (I'm a fan), and I say "Yeah, but it's about an hour away, I just can't do the drive after a concert. W says "We could get a hotel and make a date night out of it...would be fun." WTF?!
So today, I book the concert and the hotel. I am honestly thrilled to go! I'm a little shocked that she took the initiative here, but happily so. W is out of town for work, so I haven't told her yet, but I think it'll be a nice surprise.
Things have been pretty good, but hit a bump yesterday. After dinner we were talking a little about the retrouvaille session we went to Sat and the discussion bled into a bunch of other things, like about how marriages have become disposable, how people don't address their own issues, etc etc.
Well, after dinner we were sitting in bed and the conversation turned to our R. I said something along the lines of my love for W had always been constant, and she commented that I just didn't always show it, which is a fair statement. When that got flipped around, I asked her, what did she think she had showed me over the last 5-6 years and she got pissed. I was very calm, and I told her I didn't really want an answer, I just wanted her to think about how she had felt versus what she thought she showed me. At that point it became clear I hit a nerve so I asked her if she wanted to stop talking about it and she said yes. She pretty much hasn't talked to me since.
I thought about bringing it up this AM and apologizing if she thought I was trying to make her feel bad, because I really wasn't, but I just left it alone.
