Married 15 yrs, 5 kids (one mine before marriage). W got tired of dealing with my insecurity/jealousy, combined with my continued unhappiness. Multiple EAs on her side, one ongoing. Bomb dropped Feb 15 2011, and repeated multiple times since then, but no action yet. Currently in retrovaille...W has agreed to finish program, but isn't really buying in.
2) what you think you need most help with (staying on track, brainstorming solutions, setting goals, etc)
I've read so many books and coupled with the retrov, I am confused most days how I should be behaving. Do I need to detach, or talk about my feelings? Should I be excluding her or including her. How should I react to continued negative behavior?
Last edited by Cadet; 05/25/1711:34 AM.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I would like to see more of your focus onto what you can control, and setting goals for your life that include things that are just for you.
I read that you recently ( ? ) went to your son's baseball game, and were miffed at the lack of presence from your wife...
That is a waste of energy, and you are giving away too much of your power in those situations. Sometimes, we need to find the good in any situation. And the more we focus on the bad, the more the bad stares us down and attacks us.
What part of DBing, would allow you to change how you view scenarios like that in the future ?
The things that you are seeing, aren't normal behaviors of a woman that is ready to commit to a marriage right now. It suks, yet it is a reality that you are facing.
I would ask that you set yourself up, with a list of things that you do not like about yourself.
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
In the early stages, I made a list of qualities that I wanted to show the world every day. And those things were for me, and me alone. I did my best to live up to my own standards daily...regardless of the craziness around me.
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Our choice when we decide to post here, is to be different than we were before. We decide that the old way isn't/wasn't working anymore. And that there is a different way of thinking and behaving.
In the past, we operated with the set of tools that we gained through a lifetime of observing the people that we respected the most.
What we gain with DB, is a different set of tools that we carry toward the future.
Thanks. I'll try to answer some of these now, but others I'll have to do some work on and get back to you.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
What is it that YOU want to work on ?
I've come a long way on this one already, but things I want to continue to do:
- be more patient - really listen - show unconditional love for kids and W - learn to trust again - shed my insecurities - be more upbeat and lighthearted
I've done a lot of work on most of these, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
I will do this with the wife in the next couple of days. We have some dialoguing on the schedule as well as a retrovaille follow-up, so there should be an opportunity to openly ask for some feedback here.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I've spent an awful lot of time working on this one, as I think it was the main thing that was pushing my wife away, and negatively affecting my behavior in an awful lot of ways.
I think this came from the fact that my parents divorced when I was about 9. They weren't great parents to begin with, but once divorced, they barely knew we existed. I took my younger brother on as my responsibility, and I pretty much stopped being a fun loving kid at that point.
Throughout my childhood, I think my parents reiterated this over and over. I think this is where I really became reluctant to open up and be vunerable. With my wife, even when we were teenagers, she was one of the few people I really felt vunerable with. For that reason, my insecurities were significantly higher with her, and frankly, as adults, she managed around my insecurities rather than me addressing them and putting them to rest.
I think I also got a "think the worst" attitude, called negative thinking according to the things I've read. Never addressed it until recently and I think it's really become a bad habit. I am making huge strides, but it's still work. When my wife comes home 2 hours late smelling like beer, I'm not thinking she was working on a deal over beers, or even that she stopped and had a beer with a girlfriend, I immediately think she's been with someone else. And once you get that in your head, it's difficult to be kind or even ask the question in a decent way. I read "Learning to Trust" and that really helped me, but it's a work in progress.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Yes on all of those. Jealousy and insecurity where my main issues I think...controlling I think was a derivative. Judgemental and superiority, yeah, I'm ashamed to say I've been pretty bad at those too. Judgemental I think I have really put behind me. There was an episode of Joel Olstein where he focused on judging, and it really hit home. I didn't really see the superiority issues in myself until recently, but I can definitely see that my wife has dealt with it. Some may be her own insecurities, but I definitely haven't built her up the way a H should.
I've come a long way on this one already, but things I want to continue to do:
- be more patient - really listen - show unconditional love for kids and W - learn to trust again - shed my insecurities - be more upbeat and lighthearted
I've done a lot of work on most of these, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
What do you see as a common theme here ?
What are you doing to address these things ?
HOW are you working on patience?
HOW are you learning to listen?
Lets start with those two...
They will incorporate into being more upbeat, and the other ones, we will address later
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
I will do this with the wife in the next couple of days. We have some dialoguing on the schedule as well as a retrovaille follow-up, so there should be an opportunity to openly ask for some feedback here.
This, I have a hard time reading....
And I think that it falls into that catagory of insecurity for you. You are looking toward her to 'fix' you. The things I was referring you to, were the things that you have already spoken of. I believe that asking now, would come across as a ploy from you, and insecure.
Most WAS/MLCers can smell fake like Oprah can smell a Twinkie at a picnic....
What you work toward, is from the information that you already have inside of your own noggin....
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
Originally Posted By: Mach1
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I've spent an awful lot of time working on this one, as I think it was the main thing that was pushing my wife away, and negatively affecting my behavior in an awful lot of ways.
I think this came from the fact that my parents divorced when I was about 9. They weren't great parents to begin with, but once divorced, they barely knew we existed. I took my younger brother on as my responsibility, and I pretty much stopped being a fun loving kid at that point.
Throughout my childhood, I think my parents reiterated this over and over. I think this is where I really became reluctant to open up and be vunerable. With my wife, even when we were teenagers, she was one of the few people I really felt vunerable with. For that reason, my insecurities were significantly higher with her, and frankly, as adults, she managed around my insecurities rather than me addressing them and putting them to rest.
I think I also got a "think the worst" attitude, called negative thinking according to the things I've read. Never addressed it until recently and I think it's really become a bad habit. I am making huge strides, but it's still work. When my wife comes home 2 hours late smelling like beer, I'm not thinking she was working on a deal over beers, or even that she stopped and had a beer with a girlfriend, I immediately think she's been with someone else. And once you get that in your head, it's difficult to be kind or even ask the question in a decent way. I read "Learning to Trust" and that really helped me, but it's a work in progress.
I understand completely with you here. I was much the same way. Those fears of abandonment that I had inside. I knew that bad things were gonna happen, and what eventually happened for me, was that those fears inside of me, actually became the things that I worked toward, instead of away from. Because I let that fear consume me from the inside. Once I faced those fears.....they weren't as bad as I had built them up to be in my mind.
With that, I can tell you that the worst thing that you can imagine....has already happened. Like it or not, you have stared at that fear that you had built up in your mind.
And you are still here. It didn't kill you, and it won't kill you.
How do you want to move froward from that ???
You...not your marriage, or your spouse.....
You....????
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
Originally Posted By: Mach1
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Yes on all of those. Jealousy and insecurity where my main issues I think...controlling I think was a derivative. Judgemental and superiority, yeah, I'm ashamed to say I've been pretty bad at those too. Judgemental I think I have really put behind me. There was an episode of Joel Olstein where he focused on judging, and it really hit home. I didn't really see the superiority issues in myself until recently, but I can definitely see that my wife has dealt with it. Some may be her own insecurities, but I definitely haven't built her up the way a H should.
Good thinking points. Thanks!!
What do you think, has driven you to these types of behavior ?
Why do YOU think that you are judgmental ?
Additionally...
All of this, can become consuming.....quickly
That is one of the reasons that part of DBing is to GAL.
What are you doing to take a break from all of this ??
What new things are you trying ??
What is the one thing that scares the bejeezus out of you when you think of doing it ????
That is one of the reasons that part of DBing is to GAL.
What are you doing to take a break from all of this ??
What new things are you trying ??
What is the one thing that scares the bejeezus out of you when you think of doing it ????
Yeah, there's a lot of deep thinking that has to happen in order to answer some of these questions. I've been reading so many books on relationships, spending time here, and doing the retrov, sometimes it does get overwhelming.
I did start playing golf again this year, just once per week with friends, but we usually do dinner after. This is about the only time I actually do anything out of the house, and yet the W still takes pot shots at me for it. I have a ton of recreational books I'd like to dig into, but that's more "sitting at home" stuff. I have been working out (insanity!) and it's been fun...have some things like zombie run and tough mudder on the calendar for late summer. There are some other things I'd like to consider...taking my dad to see the pyramids and things like that, but I need do to some more thinking on that as well.
Oh, with regards to answer my W about things she would like to see me change, my thought on that actually came from "Desperate Marriages." In there he suggest asking your spouse what 1-2 things that they'd like to see you work on, after you have fed their love bank for a month or so. But you're right, I probably have all the info I need. She would love it if I was happier, upbeat, and wasn't so insecure. Outside of that, I think she already likes the rest of me, so I really do have a short list to work on.
What do you think, has driven you to these types of behavior ?
Why do YOU think that you are judgmental ?
Getting ready to take a short family vacation and I got a book to read on Patience for the trip! Hopefully it's a good one.
With regards to listening, I've been trying more to listen as we learned in retrovaille. I'm typically a 'fixer' so I'm really trying to avoid coming up with solutions unless specifically asked to do so. This takes focus at this point, but it does make you really think about what's going on with your spouse. Instead of fixing, I ask about her feelings toward the topic.
For the judgmental piece, I didn't really think I was like that until I took a hard look at myself. Turns out that I was...big time. I think I've done a 180 on this one, but I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about where it came from. If I had to answer, I'd say three things drove it:
1) I came a long way from my where my family was so I did have a bit of a superiority thing going on. I was the first one in my entire family to graduate from college, did so on my own dime, and got a good job, which I excelled at.
2) Kinda tying in with #1, I think I had to build myself up when I was younger to get thru some of the hardships. Clearly, it got out of hand.
3) Insecurity. I think I constantly put other people down in order to make myself feel better. As I've gotten older, this took on more of a logic based judgement, but at the end of the day, it was still judgement.
I remember my wife and I having a discussion about beer. We both enjoy craft beer and I'm a bit of a beer snob. Whenever we had friends that would drink bud-lite, I'd always say something nasty about it, like "you didn't have to bring bud-lite, we have water." She really didn't like the judgment and in hindsight, it's pretty ugly to be like that, even when it was in a joking kind of way. I think I've made good strides on this one though, whether it's about beer, or marriage, or whatever.
Thanks again for the thought provoking questions and help. Enjoy the 4th and I'll post an update when I get back!
Getting ready to take a short family vacation and I got a book to read on Patience for the trip! Hopefully it's a good one.
You can choose for it to be a good one.
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
With regards to listening, I've been trying more to listen as we learned in retrovaille. I'm typically a 'fixer' so I'm really trying to avoid coming up with solutions unless specifically asked to do so. This takes focus at this point, but it does make you really think about what's going on with your spouse. Instead of fixing, I ask about her feelings toward the topic.
You can practice listening with anyone. It doesn't have to be with your wife.
Pick out anyone in a grocery store that has the 'Gift of Gab' , and strike up a conversation with them. When you talk with them, you can practice listening, you can practice validation, and you can practice not being the 'fixer'. And it is certainly a lesson in patience. Talk about anything except your situation with them, and let them do the majority of the talking.
Originally Posted By: BD
For the judgmental piece, I didn't really think I was like that until I took a hard look at myself. Turns out that I was...big time. I think I've done a 180 on this one, but I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about where it came from. If I had to answer, I'd say three things drove it:
1) I came a long way from my where my family was so I did have a bit of a superiority thing going on. I was the first one in my entire family to graduate from college, did so on my own dime, and got a good job, which I excelled at.
2) Kinda tying in with #1, I think I had to build myself up when I was younger to get thru some of the hardships. Clearly, it got out of hand.
3) Insecurity. I think I constantly put other people down in order to make myself feel better. As I've gotten older, this took on more of a logic based judgement, but at the end of the day, it was still judgement.
One of the things that I would ask myself was....
How is what I am saying, being perceived by the person listening to me ? , and would I want to have a conversation with myself on this topic ????
It really opened my eyes when I thought of things in that regard...
The Family stuff...
It seems as though you have been seeking validation from your family. There is a difference between being superior, and taking Pride in what you have accomplished. Being proud of what you have accomplished is a very good thing. But it doesn't make you superior to anyone. Part of that really ties in to accepting people as they are, and respecting their choices, although they may be different from the choices you have made.
(What you can also learn, are the triggers that make you feel superior to them, and dig into those things, to find out WHY you feel that way.)
When that happens within a relationship, over the years, it really comes across as controlling to another person. It comes across as anything EXCEPT unconditional love.
I'm not asking you this to peeve you off...
Are you really that much better than anyone in your family ? Are you a "better" person than the guy sitting on the corner who is homeless ????
Are you a better person than your wife ???
Have you taken any time with your family now ? With a fresh set of eyes , and new listening skills ?
A really good way of overcoming this, is to volunteer at a homeless shelter, or spend a day working at the food bank. Even to organize a Food Drive at your work. Then see the life in these people, who don't want your charity. What you see, is a human, with life, and emotion. Some are there because they choose to make crappy choices, some are there because they have circumstances beyond their control. And all they want is a chance. ALL of them have a soul, and really are created equal...
It really is a very humbling experience...
What are some things that you can do ?
Food bank ? Habitat for Humanity? Homeless shelter? Animal shelter ?
Originally Posted By: BD
I remember my wife and I having a discussion about beer. We both enjoy craft beer and I'm a bit of a beer snob. Whenever we had friends that would drink bud-lite, I'd always say something nasty about it, like "you didn't have to bring bud-lite, we have water." She really didn't like the judgment and in hindsight, it's pretty ugly to be like that, even when it was in a joking kind of way. I think I've made good strides on this one though, whether it's about beer, or marriage, or whatever.
I think a lot of that plays into the judgement thing that you eluded to.
Judgement comes from control. And it is one area that I would like for you to recognize. I'm not saying that you are, although I can see certain aspects of that.
Control is a BIG issue with the WAS, and I haven't met too many LBS that haven't heard that. Learning about control, and how it plays out will be an eye opener for you.
One of the BIGGEST forms of control......is criticism...
I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. It was partly due to not having power for 4 days, and partly because I wasn't sure if it was my turn yet....lol
I wasn't sure if you were still pondering some of the questions from above....
Back from vacation...filled with ups and downs as you might expect. Haven't spent much time on anything....will post some status in a few days when I recover and have had time to think. Didn't get far in my new book, but I like what I've read so far.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
I'm not asking you this to peeve you off...
Are you really that much better than anyone in your family ? Are you a "better" person than the guy sitting on the corner who is homeless ????
Are you a better person than your wife ???
First off, don't worry about asking tough questions. I think I, just like most of us here, need to be asked those...need to think thru them, and face some of the things we haven't wanted to, or haven't thought about.
To answer your question, a year ago, I'd have said yes, but my measuring stick would have been how much I made, or how much I saved, or how much education I have, or something along those lines. Today, I'd say no...I may be at a different point in my life than they are, I may be facing different challenges than they are, but I'm certainly no better. Some of it is related to faith and how I've grown there, but overall, I don't think this is a major issue for me today.
One example....my older sister went thru the same childhood I did, but was older, so got more of the responsibility. She eventually turned to drugs and has still been struggling with them. Most of my family has turned away from her, with the exception of my mother. I really haven't had anything to do with her in 20 years. Well, a few months ago I was thinking about an Joel Osteen show we saw on judging people and it hit me, I've judged her my whole life instead of trying to lift her up. I called her and we talked for hours. My message to her was "Hey, I'm no better than you, we came from the same place and faced the same problems. You dealt with them different than I, but we're the same in more ways than not." She was so uplifted by the talk....I felt like for the first time, I reached out to her and tried to lift her up instead of putting her down. It was difficult to do, but I these days I think that's a responsibility I have.
And yes, I'm thinking of how I can give back in other ways. I haven't made the leap yet, but I've been thinking a lot about the gifts God has given me and how I can use them to help others instead of just worrying about myself.
Oh, one thing that came up yesterday (again) that relates to something I posted in my thread I wanted to mention. My wife's love language is words of affirmation. I not only withheld that for most of our marriage, I did a pretty good job of taking her in the other direction. Even when my insecurities didn't get in the way, I found it difficult to make the words come out when I thought something nice. I've made huge strides in trying to voice things when I think of them....I tell my wife when I think she looks nice, I thank her for cooking, etc etc. Most of the time, it's just simply putting to voice my thoughts...I'm not sitting around thinking this stuff up. While this comes directly from 5 Love Languages, it seems to work with retrovaille (we're supposed to try to say something positive in our dialoguing). However, it seems opposite of DB....and I think my wife definitely views it as pursuing and certainly doesn't believe most of it.
For example, about a week ago, my wife looked great before she left for work....I meant to say it out loud before she left, but the morning was hectic and I forgot. About an hour later I remembered and went ahead and text it to her. Later that evening, she told me how she thought it was fake, how texting was somehow a safe way to do it, how she'd have preferred I write it on a note for her when she got home, etc etc.
I am not sure what I'm supposed to do here.....do I stick with my changes, or do I limit these kinds of things to our dialoguing or what? I realize she needs space, and in a way, I think this is causing more harm than help.
Another tid-bit that came up again yesterday (she's told me this numerous times now) is that she's been intentionally being disrespectful, selfish, etc etc over the last year because she was trying to get me to leave her, so she wouldn't have to take the blame (evidently the blame is a big thing for her). She's really stopped most of the negative behavior, but in her mind, she stills sees herself as with one foot out the door. Not sure if this sheds any light on anything, but it felt like the chapter changed a little so I thought I'd mention it.
