Crimson....just checkin' in.

[workinghardguy]

Whoa big shooter.. Slow down there... I know I had the same feelings about dating... at about the same time in the timeline you're at.

But you're probably nowhere near ready. I know I would get excited at the thought of the date part, going out, flirting, etc... how I knew I wasn't ready was when I went past that. When I went to the follow-up phone call, the maintenance part, the work that goes into maintaining an intimate relationship. As soon as I thought of that I got (and still get) exhausted. So I know I'm not ready. If just thinking of it exhausts me... well, where would I find the energy to actually do it?

You have enough on your plate now. Work on that.

Though as an odd/funny aside... I did put up a profile on a dating site. Mainly because I was curious who was out there and you had to put one up to use the site. So I was completely honest. I talked about where my brain was at, how I wasn't ready, why I wasn't ready, that I had no idea when I would be ready.

I was pretty surprised when even that got responses. I had women emailing me out of the blue... I believe I even used the term "damaged goods" in my profile. Some folks just won't be turned back I guess...

[sayitaintso]

I've struggled with this thought of dating as well Crimson. I've realized that I'm not ready but their are some things that I know I would enjoy and wish I was able to experience.

I have read a few sitch's where it seemed that finding another woman or dating may have been the catalyst to bring back their WAW but that seems inauthentic and manipulative to me so as of now I am holding off.

It may bring some benefits but it also will bring added stress and who knows what other issues and right now I have enough of that.

[vera be fierce]

If you have to ask if you're ready, you're probably not ready. You have very valid concerns about how your W would react. I would say to keep working on yourself for now. You'll know when the time has come.

[Crimson]

Yeah, that is pretty much the conclusion that I have come to these days. I guess the thing of it is needing the validation. After 9 months of what seems like unrelenting rejection the ol' self esteem and ego are pretty much in the toilet. Would be nice to feel attractive or "wanted" again - even if just for a little while.

Something that 25 said (and has said historically to me and others) has been chipping away at me. "She has to believe that marriage to you from this day forward can be different, better". I agree fully with that statement. I just wonder if at this point she has the capacity to believe that still. I would like to think so, but I have no realy way of knowing. Has my situation drifted past the point of hope?? I so want to post some of the things she said in her letter to me....maybe I will later - but it was nothing but appreciation and all of these wonderful things I did to make her life better. Just seems so contradictary to other actions. It made/makes my head spin.

Crimson

[adinva]

Hey Crimson! In those same 9 months you were supposed to be detaching and GALing so that your opinion of yourself would not be tied to her actions. Keep detaching and keep GALing to heal yourself. Doesn't mean dating necessarily. YOU are not defined by HER.

In my opinion, you should completely forget the idea that you'll get remarried to her. Holding that idea as your primary goal has hurt your sitch and hurt you. Consider this. If you completely forget that goal and continuing being a great man and a great dad, she'll know exactly where to find you if she decides to try again. Stop working toward that goal - working toward it is moving you away from it.

Are you glad you got that letter of appreciation? It appears that it was designed to make you feel good about her memories of your relationship and to be a sort of peace offering, not an effort to get back together. That you took it as hopeful that she might want to reconcile, hurt you. Instead you could be glad that she doesn't hate you and take it as just exactly only what it was.

I hope you'll focus back on you and get your mojo back.

Best,

[25yearsmlc]

25 -

Correct. Wife is the petitioner. She filed due to several things she brought to my attention all at once that were contributing to her unhappiness and tied directly to me.


Fair enough...but since these problems are being worked on, they are no longer problems. I heard a c say that a great workshop I attended once and it hit me like a bolt. It's true.

If you have identified a problem you have and you are really working on it, it's NOT really a problem anymore, is it?


She has mentioned that she noticed changes in me - but has not said so again for quite some time. Just by vitrue of the fact that I never have my phone with me when we are together should be a big one.


meaning you are no longer obsessed or distracted by work or other matters that came up with you, electronically? Good. It's a simple but powerful gesture. Keep it up.

The settlement agreement had "out of town" terms in it. It was agreed upon by both sides. She asked me for an excess (double) of the maximum.

I said that if we are working on our R, even AFTER a D - then I am fine having that much flexibility in the name of healing or relationship.


Well it's too bad you worded it that^^ way. IT sounds manipulative even though I THINK i Know what you meant.

Instead, You could have been more reticent and said "we'll see but gee that sounds like a really LONG time for me and son to be apart...let's play that by ear..."

(Maybe run it by a counselor or suggest that to her. It is very long for a boy that age to be away from either parent and I know this from when I joined the army when son was 16 months old).

For 15 weeks, I saw him only on weekends as I was in basic training (but we were very lucky to live near where that was happening so I went home on weekends). Later on, I was sent away for a 16 day trip without any contact with son (but phone)

and when I finally got home, he was bonded more with my mom than me...for a few days at least. Man, that took the sparkles off that reunion, to see him pull away from me and hold onto her. Thank God it was MY mom...
and it passed.

all this ALMOST makes me want you to say

"W, with the papers, I could have just said NO to any out of town, but instead I showed flexibility. Seems You want it ALL your way or NO way and if I say less than YES TO ALL, I'm a manipulative jerk...really? Well you're welcome.

And btw, w, exactly where and how are YOU showing any flexibility? Can't I say about you, everything you've said about/to me? OR more, since YOU are filing

while supposedly being open to changes in the r, and exploring a recon, while seeking more from me and going to mc, ALL while still keeping you foot on the divorce pedal"????"


She then accused me of conditional efforts and DID, in fact. say "I find it incredibly manipulative that you would adjust his time away based on what you want and not what's best for him". I didn't respond - but wanted to ask her if she thought 20 days away from his father was "best for him". Sounded like it was best for her to me.

that response, if said calmly, is an adult response. Why not say it? You simply MUST point out her double standards. Those rationalizations don't make her evil or worthless, b/c humans rationalize a lot. Just as you rationalized some pretty self indulgent behavior, before your awakening.

She needs an awakening too.

I say Point these things out, NOT in a "gotcha" way, but in an adult way.

I don't think it takes law school to do this (though some days I wonder if it does, when I read how people communicate here) but the concept of saying your spiel, uninterrupted and then letting someone respond, and then NOT repeating yourself but finding resolution or addressing other relevant points to resolve the conflict...geez...


** it's totally legit to say "I hear you wife, and ironically I see it the same way but in reverse.

I truly believe it's best FOR SON and me, to be in each other's lives MORE, not less, and I have to wonder if you've given thought, even just 3 minutes thought, to this idea--e.g., how YOU'd feel if I were to take son somewhere for 3 weeks without you seeing him at all, and then called YOU SELFISH for voicing your concern...

My real worry w, is that I fear it doesn't even cross your mind anymore..."....

Then Crimson, get off the phone or end the note/conversation.

She will NOT change her mind in that moment, few people would or could - and her pride will argue in a knee jerk way.

But if you plant the seed that a double standard of major proportions is happening w/her, and that SHE is being unfair now, she may give a little.

If she's got a reasonable bone in her body-and she does-then

THE ONLY OBSTACLE TO HER SEEING THE TRUTH -

WILL BE IN HOW YOU PRESENT IT TO HER.

The issue has been dead for awhile now - just don't know if I want to breath life back into it if she doesn't bring it up.


Why NOT mention the double standard? How's it going to hurt? She'll keep doing this, just biding her time til she wants something else new and beyond the boundaries b/c she feels owed. YOu are enabling her to feel that way.

Are you able to say, CALMLY, say when things are GOOD in the park, "hey w, I don't expect or want an answer but I hope you'll ponder this b/c it's been bugging me...you assume such nefairous motives on my end and I feel like I get zero benefit of any doubt. BUT to ME, seems like you may be doing some 'old me' tricks and kidding yourself about arrangements. I only say this b/c I recognize how I once saw things only my way and no one else's...

but you asked for DOUBLE the time away from son...aside from the legal aspects and boundary pushing I'm coping with,

I feel like I've bent over backwards to be fair and above board, but I miss son a lot even with just a few days apart. You of all people know how it feels.

So To hear you tell me I'm MANIPULATIVE b/c I balked at such a long time apart, and that I WAS PUTTING MYSELF AHEAD OF HIM, hurt me a lot. I have to say it sure feels like a double standard.

hey, I'm NOT asking you for anything except to give that possibility some thought. Have a good weekend".

CRIMSON- LEAVE the area or end the conversation pleasantly RIGHT THEN.

If she begins to respond, even if it SOUNDS nice,

firmly but gently cut her off saying "Hey I don't need or want an answer now. I just want you to really put yourself in my shoes b/c I KNOW I've been trying to do that for you..."

and GET OFF the phone so she really has time to process how off track SHE is getting. You want this to sink in and you do not want to look or seem like you are pressuring her in any way. She can hardly claim that when you force her to give herself space and time.

BUT I suggest you never ever connect "Working on the m" with giving her more and more time with son.

That part, did not sit well with me. It looks like a reward system, probably one she was happy to use when it suited her. But it's weird.

She's basically becoming who she once accused you of being. OR so it seems from where I sit.

It's easy to do when you feel, sometimes rightly, that you were a victim. It's hard to realize that you've changed places now and the other person is being the victim, which makes YOU the......not so nice guy...



Seems like whenever I bring up how I feel about things it bounces right off of her and has no impact whatsoever. Or worse yet, spawns a potential argument. I don't think she is interested in my feelings much right now.


try the above methods I suggested, but NOT done in the heat of an argument or fight. OR try saying it with a c around.

Sometimes you don't want to bring ANYthing up when times are good, and I get that. Usually it's a bad idea. I agree...OTOH

But if you have some unresolved stuff that matters, and time with son DOES

then you have to bring it up sometime. When is it best?

I think it's better to do when things are good, & she's seeing you in a good light, light hearted, etc...tempers are not flaring, no one is imputing nefarious motives, etc....patiences exists..

and as the fun event or pleasant time together is nearing its end, you get her alone briefly, and bring up the matter calmly, succinctly, EXPECTING and demanding NO response and taking up less than 3 minutes...all you are asking her for is to consider your position (as mentioned above) and all you want from her THEN

is maybe a promise to "just think about it" or "promise me you'll try to put yourself in my shoes for 5 minutes", without waiting for a definitive reply, THANK HER...and end the conversation.

You won't have "ruined" the evening b/c you waited til it was almost over, and then you calmly, like a friend, asked her "for a favor" (as in, "be fair").

It's a way to resolve a conflict in an adult manner. If she loses it, no matter how badly, you stay calm.

That does not mean stay silent. If she opens the door with a glaring hypocrisy, you can say "that right there is a double standard that I'm referring to - but I can see you are too upset to discuss this now so we'll talk later. All I wanted was for you to try and see it from my perspective but maybe you can't, so...have a nice night"...and LEAVE.



I have been great (IMHO) in containing and not showing anger thus far. Even when I am getting chewed out I stay calm and do not react. I checked out for a few days after her "nasty-gram" just because I really didn't know what to say and I didn't want to start a fight. I needed to cool off. And, to be honest, part of me wanted her to see what "no contact" was like and to realize that I deserve enough respect not to talked to like that. Right or wrong? I don't know.

Will post more - have to leave.

Crimson

you must learn how to communicate disagreement without insults. It's a generic statement but it's a BIG DEAL Crimson.

It's mandatory to healthy happy marriage, truly.


Be able to disagree without attacking. OWn when you've turned a disagreement into an insult contest or an attack, and retreat with a short but sincere apology and give it easily.

That shows HER that apologies are not surrenders. They are not signs of weakness but of strength.

Be able to be attacked without attacking back, BUT without silently taking it. And with a shield up. Know this---

Frequently, silence is viewed as consent.

Say something like "I don't agree at all with what you just said, but since tempers are short, NOW is not the time to resolve this. Call me when you feel calmer" and walk away

BUT

Crimson

if you think that comment will enrage her more,

then say YOU are "too upset to discuss this now b/c I SO disagree so let's both take a breather..."

or

"Looks like We are too far apart on this issue to resolve it tonight. Maybe with cooling off time we'll see it differently."

But don't keep engaging and worse, don't keep listening to her ranting b/c I really do believe she thinks your silence is your agreement with her view.

Worst case scenario, at a minimum,

tell her "I'm very upset so please don't confuse my silence with acquiescence, b/c it's not."

Crimson, it's late and I'm wiped. I hope this makes sense. Keep us posted.

[Crimson]

I agree with you 25, and I WANT to be able to bring up disagreements without them being escalated. But his is a HUGE problem that has been around for ages:

I CANNOT express any kind of negative emotion (disappointment, hurt, anger, WHATEVER) to her without her taking it as a personal attack at her. It does NOT matter if I am calm, using a low voice, soft voice - she will treat it like an attack. And somehow, it gets turned around on ME - "you're never happy with anything! you nitpick me! I can't live up to your standards!". It happens like this ALL THE TIME. And I am left with an angry wife, an unresolved issue and a spinning head wondering how the hell I landed in an argument when I came peacefully with the best of intentions.

Believe me, I am OK owning my stuff - but THAT is something of hers that she will not own. Never has - but it always happens. It's as if her only way to defend herself is to deflect things to me.

Crimson

[Crazyville]

C, just a question, do you have a tendency to use adjectives when you talk with her?

For example, is it really a HUGE problem as you said? To me, global warming and American obesity are HUGE problems (no pun intended.) Perhaps it's a recurring problem? Perhaps an unresolved problem? But HUGE?

I only ask because H has a tendency to describe everything I do with adjectives. It's degrading. You might ask yourself it you do the same thing. Maybe a lot of us do, probably shouldn't.

[Crimson]

Been away for awhile.....from my thread, anyway.

Things seem to be in their regular pattern at the moment. W and I are getting along and moderately communicative - but we aren't hanging out or anything. Today she leaves for The SF Bay area with son till Monday. I hate him being that far away from me, and wanted to be with him the first time he saw the ocean - but in the big picture I am sure this time away with him is good for my wife.

Instead of being reflective and sulky and sent her a text message this morning saying to have a great time and travel safe....and to tell S that daddy will be with him in spirit. She responded by saying "Will send pics along the way. Pray for me! LOL". She has stressed repeatedly that she will send me a bunch of pics while she is there. That makes me feel good and bad - if I am being honest. I am glad she is thinking of me - but at the same time I feel like I am missing out in a lot of ways. I dunno - maybe I should just take it as a positive sign and leave it like that.

I have to say that I was INCREDIBLY....INCREDIBLY touched and inspired by reading all of LITB's threads that he posted over the last year plus. It really gave me a boost and a little bit of renewed strength during a time when I sincerely needed it. His story had/has many of the same traits as mine and as a husband/father we made a lot of the same mistakes. His wife said a lot of things that mine did, and she seemed to view things a lot like mine as well. I know it is just one "data point" but I am glad to see a story like mine take a happy turn. I know there are no guarantees, but to see that it IS possible gives me strength.

I also read posts from 1704 (I think that was his name). I saw there where I could have gone had I not turned the light on myself and taken ownership of what was mine in terms of the breakdown of my relationship with my life. I could feel and remember his pain, confusion and inability to accept reality. He said something that resonated quite a bit with me:

"If I back away now it will only push her farther away from me"

Holy sh*t if that thought doesn't creep into my head every day! He said he was not going to return to the boards - but I wish him well. There but for the grace of Sandi2, 25yearsmlc, and a host of others go I.

More to say but need to drive my way into the salmon spawn that is PHX morning traffic. Really gonna miss my boy these next few days. And honestly, will miss my W, too. The last time she was in SF we were there together and it was great. I do hope she has a good time and good chats with her friend and her friend's family.

Crimson

[25yearsmlc]

Been away for awhile.....from my thread, anyway.

Things seem to be in their regular pattern at the moment. W and I are getting along and moderately communicative - but we aren't hanging out or anything. Today she leaves for The SF Bay area with son till Monday. I hate him being that far away from me, and wanted to be with him the first time he saw the ocean - but in the big picture I am sure this time away with him is good for my wife.

Instead of being reflective and sulky and sent her a text message this morning saying to have a great time and travel safe....and to tell S that daddy will be with him in spirit.

^^^ Good


She responded by saying "Will send pics along the way. Pray for me! LOL". She has stressed repeatedly that she will send me a bunch of pics while she is there. That makes me feel good and bad - if I am being honest. I am glad she is thinking of me - but at the same time I feel like I am missing out in a lot of ways. I dunno - maybe I should just take it as a positive sign and leave it like that.

of course this^^^ is how you should take it. Are you really in doubt?

I have to say that I was INCREDIBLY....INCREDIBLY touched and inspired by reading all of LITB's threads that he posted over the last year plus. It really gave me a boost and a little bit of renewed strength during a time when I sincerely needed it. His story had/has many of the same traits as mine and as a husband/father we made a lot of the same mistakes. His wife said a lot of things that mine did, and she seemed to view things a lot like mine as well. I know it is just one "data point" but I am glad to see a story like mine take a happy turn. I know there are no guarantees, but to see that it IS possible gives me strength.

((( )))

I also read posts from 1704 (I think that was his name). I saw there where I could have gone had I not turned the light on myself and taken ownership of what was mine in terms of the breakdown of my relationship with my life. I could feel and remember his pain, confusion and inability to accept reality. He said something that resonated quite a bit with me:

"If I back away now it will only push her farther away from me"

Holy sh*t if that thought doesn't creep into my head every day! He said he was not going to return to the boards - but I wish him well. There but for the grace of Sandi2, 25yearsmlc, and a host of others go I.

your story is important to tell. Not that many men stick around who make your type of progress or change the way you seem to have. Revel in that, and let others learn.

It's not easy b/c it can be draining, esp when you feel it's not working out the way you want it to. But If my h died today or became a different man and we ended up divorced, say 4 years from now, I don't believe I'll have any regrets about what i learned or did nor do now or before, nor do I think I'd feel this effort wasn't successful.

Life throws curve balls. Some couples get more than others.

If we confront another problem and it defeats us, that does not mean THIS battle should have been lost and that I/we only delayed the inevitable.

I say this b/c I don't think people who change/improve a lot, but don't end up reconciled, must just go off into the sunset...I think their stories are as important as the stories of ultimate reconciliation.

And there are success stories of another type too. Stories of people who were heartbroken, felt defeated, lost the marriage, but picked themselves up, changed themselves and their lives...for the better

and THAT story is worth telling too.


for me, I owe it to this place to come back and support when I can.


More to say but need to drive my way into the salmon spawn that is PHX morning traffic. Really gonna miss my boy these next few days. And honestly, will miss my W, too. The last time she was in SF we were there together and it was great. I do hope she has a good time and good chats with her friend and her friend's family.

Let her have the space to let those good memories resurface in her. She'll remember the good times she had WITH YOU...if you let her.


Crimson