My point here: if you have a wayward spouse or child, there are certain points that nothing you could say or do, not even boundaries, can stop them.
You don't understand boundaries, Angel. The purpose of having your own boundaries isn't to "stop them." It's to:
1. Protect yourself
2. Place more value on yourself (thus making yourself feel better ABOUT yourself), and then also, as a bonus:
3. It builds attraction (we tend to be more attracted to someone who places HIGH value on themselves, rather than LOW value).
They have absolutely zero to do with controlling or "stopping" the other person's behavior, altho they can LEAD to that, IF the other person chooses to respond positively and weighs your stated consequences for boundary violations.
Here's the lesson I learned about how civilized human beings brought up with good values react to their desire to do someting instrinsically wrong, like an A, or maybe some other thing like trying out drugs (both real life and condensed from reading stuff here and elsewhere)
1. They at first fight it (because they know it's wrong intrinsically)
2. They can't fight it so they start fantisizing about it, and start justifying why it is OK, alhtough inside them they are not fully convinced. (Yep. It is taboo, which only heightens the fantasy)
3. They do it anyway, just a little, maybe hoping they can get away with it, and nobody will be hurt. (If they already know this is a hard boundary with you, and they CARE about you (and don't want your pre-stated consequences to kick in), I would contend that this applies a "stigma" to doing it, and makes them less likely to try it to begin with. A spouse who has always strongly stated "Infidelity is a dealbreaker for me; if you ever cheat on me, I WILL divorce you" is just an example (and I happen to believe it doesn't HAVE to be, and I fought through it myself, and am glad I did), but I do think the prestated boundary helps squash the behavior before it ever starts . . . SOMETIMES.
4. They get caught, and this is when they start believing the rationalizations and justifications they made.
5. Pride comes in, and they defend their actions. At this point, they don't care who gets hurt. They don't see others getting hurt. When others try to make them see what they did wrong, they fight back and rebel. Or, the hurt party reminds (or states for the first time) them of their boundary, what the consequences are for violating it, and the "misbehaving" party -- believing the consequence (because their spouse has shown in the past a consistency here, and he knows she MEANS it) -- pulls back from the abyss.
***You can't "make someone see what they did wrong" -- you can only remind them of YOUR boundary! It's the difference between saying "You must end your affair" and saying "Look, you're an adult and you can do whatever you wish, but know that I will not remain in a marriage where I am ANYONE'S second choice."
6. They realize that they hurt others, but still prideful, they carry on. They may stop doing what they did but they are still justifying that it was not wrong. Guilt mixed with pride. Or, they believe that the consequence WILL be applied (for example, their betrayed spouse will divorce them), and they weigh the consequence against the fun and "feels good" of their behavior, and they come to their senses and stop the crap behavior.
7. Acceptance of what they did wrong. Making amends and repartions. Might be too late, especially if they had cut ties. RECONCILIATION, where BOTH parties have to address their roles in the prior marital dysfunction that led to the wayward behavior to begin with.
I don't disagree with your cycle, as you describe it Angel. That CAN be the way it goes. But the way you have it written is almost entirely FEELINGS based ... EMOTION based. There is a way to learn to place calm, loving, yet FIRM boundaries in place in our lives so that others can then CHOOSE to live within them, or face losing us.
If you want to read further on it, "Boundaries," by Cloud & Townsend, is considered THE best book on the subject.
Starsky, I know the sort of posts you're talking about, but in my opinion they're NOT made by people who have dropped the rope. Doing 180s or equating dropping the rope with dropping all boundaries with regards to their spouse, only shows how tight they're holding on to the idea that if they do a, they'll get b (a restored M). Obviously, they have more learning to do....
I'm sure you're right that people with few boundaries lean towards passive approaches, and vice versa. But we all make mistakes when we're learning a new way of thinking, and I also see numerous people who (eventually) learn how to enforce boundaries and detach, as 2 complementary parts of one lesson.
In addition, I see a fair number of people who DO save their M's, yet it's clear (and often their return a few years later proves this) that they didn't finish working on themselves. And the problem is always a combination of not having detached sufficiently AND not having established adequate boundaries; they end up "settling" to get their partners back (or in new relationships) and lack the confidence to enforce clear boundaries.
Agreed again. That's why Piecing is the hardest part. Without real change (almost always by BOTH parties), and NEW, HEALTHIER boundaries put in place, the recidivism rate for infidelity is, sadly, extremely high.
I used to expect a lot out of my M and out of H that he started to feel like a failure when he could not fulfill my expectations.
Even during the early part of piecing I had expectations and because of those, ended up feeling really disappointed.
Boundaries in a sense are like expectations.
I do not believe that boundaries are only for YOU. As you said, it is to protect you from the outside world, so it does stop others from some actions, no matter what. It is not a two way street. It is only right from your side.
I value myself enough to realize that I don't depend upon others for my happiness.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
I too have a hard time with the whole "Hope = GOOD, Expectations = BAD" thing, Angel. I fail to see the difference most of the time.
Am I wrong if I expect other people to treat me decently, with respect and kindness? I don't think so. I do know we're supposed to DO nice things for other people, out of a sense of thankful giving, and/or just a "that's who I am" thing, and NOT expect anything in return. I get that part. But I read on this forum where we are not to have "expectations" ... well, I say BULLCHIT to that, cuz what kind of way to go thru life is that??? I don't think I can expect a whole long LIST of things, but a short list of personal integrity "dealbreakers' in my life? like "I expect my wife to remain faithful to me," or "I expect other people to not scream at me when discussing something with me" or "I expect my children to respect their grandparents" ... these are things that YA DAMNED RIGHT, I'm gonna "expect" em!
The whole thing here is that of course it goes without saying that for all of us, we all thought that cheating was a deal breaker! And so did I! And when my H started his EA he knew that and he knew he hurt me and he knew I deserved better so he asked for a D! And of course at first I begged and pleaded and realized that an A was not a deal breaker, and that I was willing to wait it out! Thats when I discovered DBing.
Where everyone said be the best woman you can. The OW is a band aid. Affairs last only 6 months. GAL. 180. Forgive. Lose the anger.
Nobody said D him now! He crossed your boundaries!
And so I did all of that. Which led us to still being together after all this months. Which H even thanked me for, saying he never realized that I did love him that much to stay.
What did other people who lived through their H's or W's MLC do? Did they run for the door once their spouses backslid? Or did they just DB harder and detach?
It may work for some people, like it did for you, but I dont think it works for many.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
There will always be disrespectful people, people may yell at you, flip you, ignore you..... so what do you propose to do about that? Give them a lecture? Tell thedisprespectful cashier at the checkout counter that you expect them to respect your boundaries? Good luck with that.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
In my experience, the "happiness/success" scale that I see from people is something like this:
1. (Best) Fight for their marriage; wayward/walkaway/MLC behavior ends, they reconcile, getting GOOD counseling and addressing BOTH of their issues, and build a marriage that's better than ever.
2a. (Next Best) The betrayed spouse realizes, on their own, they made a horrible mistake, haven't been happy for years, and their cheating/walkaway/MLC spouse's crap behavior is like a "straw that broke the camel's back" and they end the marriage and find someone more compatible.
2b. The betrayed spouse lays down a HARD, SWIFT boundary, realizing that everyone makes mistakes, and decides that they can forgive their cheating spouse ONCE, but they've got to immediately end their affair and return and work on the marriage with them. This is usually best done in conjunction with a strong self-improvement program on the part of the betrayed/left-behind spouse, or else the wayward spouse won't see anything that they'd even WANT to return to.
3. Same as #1, but they don't get counseling, and eventually the marriage sloowwwwly slides back into its previous dysfunction, but there's lots of happy times along the way and the kids are happy with the intact family.
4. (Far and away the unhappiest folks I encounter): LIMBO.
I did "2b," yes, and it worked for me. And it doesn't work for everyone, but it's far from rare, and I do think it's the BEST chance that people have of saving their marriages. #1 would be nice, but those are few and far between, where someone ONE THEIR OWN has an "omg, what am I DOING???" moment and ends it, without outside pressure. These people are almost always of a very strong faith, in my experience, and generally have a good and decent spouse (but maybe they were just bored, or feeling neglected).
My way may not work for all, but LIMBO works for NONE. Your "strategy," near as I can tell (cuz I have a hard time determining just what it is??) is basically a Little Bo-Peep (You know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them), mixed with strong prayer that your husband will become a #1 if you just give him enough time.
There will always be disrespectful people, people may yell at you, flip you, ignore you..... so what do you propose to do about that? Give them a lecture? Tell thedisprespectful cashier at the checkout counter that you expect them to respect your boundaries? Good luck with that.
Yes, Angel. It doesn't work all the time, but you CAN -- with practice -- learn to lay out, and enforce, healthier boundaries in your life about how people treat you. Absolutely you can.
This does NOT come naturally to me, as I am naturally a "pleaser", classic 'Mr. Nice Guy' personality (hey, no jokes here, I really am!)... but I've had to work at it. I come from a long family line of co-dependent pleasers, complete with a lot of alcohol and other substance abuse problems that tend to go along with our personality types.
But yeah, it absolutely CAN be done. Over time, we TEACH people how to treat us.
