Spinning, neglect, loss and the bomb

[HollyAnn]

Oh, and do not fear her wrath. She will get mad when things don't go her way. Tough! "Sorry you feel that way." Or, "Wow, that must be upsetting for you."
Believe it or not, "mad" is "good."
Do not get sucked in when she appears to be "happy" or "nice" to you. This is an indicator that she is getting her way with OM, plans for her "wonderful" new single life, whatever.
If she does try to suck you back in, "I don't know how I feel about this. I have a lot of thinking to do and decisions to make."
Short, declarative statements. Less is more.
And NEVER tip your hand to her. WAS's are very selfish, cruel, and manipulative.
Water off a duck's back.
You are in control of YOU. Not every shot will be called by her.
Believe it!

[ouroboros]

Thanks to you all for the replies--I'm getting there, albeit slowly.

OK, firstly what's good about this situation is that your W recognizes that this is wrong & why she has hidden this. It might not seem like she is thinking of you, but if her actions became common knowledge, this would hurt your pride even further & damage your ego.

It sounds like you're talking about if her friends found out, right?
As opposed to confessing to me?
FWIW, if her friends found out about her having an affair and wanting a divorce THEY'D probably disown her. They wouldn't think twice about my role in it.
I guess I'm still not understanding you--I am stuck thinking she's protecting her own arse, not mine.

I really thought a lot about your question re: what do I want out of confronting her. I realized it comes down to the obvious fact that I have exactly zero trust in her right now b/c of the bomb. And, I don't know how to go about rebuilding--even DBing--without being able to have some little sliver of trust moving in the right direction.

So, when W is boldfaced lying about having an EA or PA (I have a freaking love letter she wrote for godssake), I get stuck in this cycle of hurt/anger about her continued deceit.

And it's exactly that sort of only-in-her-own-brain deceit that's a damaging pattern in our relationship, but in a weird way--for example, she'll spend days/weeks/months consulting with other people about a serious issue before talking to me. So, she'll be acting way, way off for that time before it. And I'll ask what's going on/what's wrong. We'll fight. She'll get exasperated and just emotionlessly state her decision about the thing. I've realized that I'm not the one she will confide in first for anything.
Like the 3 weeks she knew she was pregnant and wanting an abortion.
Like the 3 months of deceit before the bomb.

So, why do I want to call her out about the EA/PA? To get some honesty for a change before she walks ALL the way out. It's like she's being honest finally about everything else but this.

But you're right. Confronting her runs the risk of a knee-jerk reaction. Or making me look weak and unattractive.

What you need to do, is exactly what people are telling you to do, detach. Work on yourself, be happy and live your life to the full. She will notice, even if she doesn't say anything. Every positive 180 you can acheive, consistantly will give her reason to doubt herself.

Definitely, and this is happening and I'm seeing positive effects.
I'm GALing and 180ing like crazy and she's completely struck by my enjoying (at least most parts) my life for a change.

I'm really frigging stuck on this confrontation.

About bringing up the EA/PA it's totally up to you, but if you are convinced it is over, what good of it will come from that situation. Peace of mind for yourself? There are other ways you can get passed all of this.

Hmm--do you think calling out your W, even if you have clear evidence of EA/PA, is pursing? How can I get past not just having fear/anxiety, but knowing for a fact something hidden is/was going on? How can I rebuild my own sense of trusting her?

[ouroboros]

I don't see anything "wrong" with bringing up possible infidelity in MC; as long as you do it in such a way as stating a boundary: "I'm just not the type of man who would ever share his W with another man..."
You can state that as a boundary without confrontation. It is a fact, right? Just state your fact and shut up. No lectures, no expanding. Short, declarative statements come across as strengths.

Well, as it turns out, MC today was...eventful.
Started talking with the C about my getting my act together, GAL, and fighting back depression--getting back into my own skin. Being honest with myself and living up to my personal obligations. Realizing that no one in this world can take care of you (although def they can support).
And--that FINALLY for the past few days I'm genuinely feeling happy for a change.

So the MC asks W about my feeling happy, and W tells her how she's bewildered about the whole thing. Starts breaking down and talking in some contradictions, but then goes on to say that one reason for the bomb was to free me to make me happy--that if it took my getting involved with some imagined OW, she'd be all for it.

This gave me great pause. Most women I know would rather have their arms cut off than have their husband PA. When the MC asked me what I thought about it, I told her I think W isn't talking about me. I think she's talking about herself, that she wants to be happy by freeing me to pave the way for OP.

The MC jumped on this and directly asked W if this is true, is there a PA. W denied it flatly and in great detail.

Rather foolishly, I then was talking about my hurt and fear--and said, well look, I don't know what to expect from you anymore. And, I wouldn't be surprised you'd have an affair given how insanely depressed and neglectful I've been. But, if you look at the stupid websites for the top 10 signs for a cheating W, damn if W isn't doing ALL of them.

She broke down completely, but also completely denied that she was trying to pave the way for OM or having an PA.

So, I managed to lose my cool severely. And, like bill suggested, I think it didn't help much, but she also didn't seem to make rash decisions. Instead, now I think she's getting afraid of the possibility of MY making a rash decision and leaving her.

She wants out? Show her the door and wish her well. Do not try to cling; it is weak, and we like strong men. We have no respect for neediness.
Don't beg her to stay, let her feel the loss of you by her own hand.
Hang in there.

I talked a lot about boundaries in MC, mostly due to your reply.
Honest and clear boundaries--like I wouldn't tolerate her being with OM.
I talked about he boundaries she decided to set all on her own by dropping the bomb, moving into another room in the house, etc.
And I talked about the fact that the boundaries she's setting are damn confusing.
I told W, if she wants out of the M, move out of the house.

She backtracked, talking about the fact that she's in MC to stay, that she's committed to figuring out how we move forward (whether we D or not).
And, she even told the MC that she'd be very willing to figure out how to reconcile if I was able to keep being myself as I am now.

It sounds great, right?

Unfortunately, I left MC completely jaded.
I soft balled several opportunities for her to admit her affair, or even a desire for one...nothing.
I realized walking out of there that for the moment I've lost all respect for W--I don't have any respect for liars or thieves...why would I respect her now.

I'm completely pissed off and more than a little disgusted.
By far, this is the most angry I've been since the bomb.
I keep having strings of nasty curses and slanders go through my head about her.
I couldn't even stand to be in the same house with her tonight.
Told W I was going to go hang out with people tonight, go see a movie or watch the game (very unlike me to do this by myself and no one was around tonight).

[breakdownbill]

It sounds like you're talking about if her friends found out, right?
As opposed to confessing to me?
FWIW, if her friends found out about her having an affair and wanting a divorce THEY'D probably disown her. They wouldn't think twice about my role in it.
I guess I'm still not understanding you--I am stuck thinking she's protecting her own arse, not mine.

I just meant anyone in your life that knows you. To a large extent she is, but you are married to her and whatever people say about your W - will reflect on you and your R. The only thing you have to gain by this becoming public knowledge right now is other people's sympathy. Is that what you want, for people to feel sorry for you? If you want to repair your M someday, hanging your W out to dry & take all the stigma of cheating is not something I could recommend. I know you feel like lashing out in some way, but this would hurt both of you & the added pressure of what your friends, family and community think of you and your M, is not healthy or something you would want. So do something else to vent your anger constructively, you know exercise or hit a punchbag.



I really thought a lot about your question re: what do I want out of confronting her. I realized it comes down to the obvious fact that I have exactly zero trust in her right now b/c of the bomb. And, I don't know how to go about rebuilding--even DBing--without being able to have some little sliver of trust moving in the right direction.

First of all your wife has broken your trust & betrayed you. This trust was built up over many years & it will have to be earned by your W. I don't trust half the things my W says to me now, because of the same thing - betrayal & that she hasn't done anything to win my trust back.
The DB'g is for YOU!! For YOU to get your life back on track,find out what makes you happy & live life in the moment, to start to reflect on what you want & to become a person who understands about relationships, so whoever your next relationship is with is different (even if it is with your W).



So, when W is boldfaced lying about having an EA or PA (I have a freaking love letter she wrote for godssake), I get stuck in this cycle of hurt/anger about her continued deceit.

You know your trust has been betrayed - a confession or the details will not change anything for you or your W.

And it's exactly that sort of only-in-her-own-brain deceit that's a damaging pattern in our relationship, but in a weird way--for example, she'll spend days/weeks/months consulting with other people about a serious issue before talking to me. So, she'll be acting way, way off for that time before it. And I'll ask what's going on/what's wrong. We'll fight. She'll get exasperated and just emotionlessly state her decision about the thing. I've realized that I'm not the one she will confide in first for anything.
Like the 3 weeks she knew she was pregnant and wanting an abortion.
Like the 3 months of deceit before the bomb.

Your W will not confide in you, because the things she is doing in her head are because of you. This is how she is justifying her actions & other people outside of your M are used to validate her biased versions of her issues. This is just human nature, if someone in work does your head in about something, you normally confide in someone else to get another opinion on the situation first, before acting on anything. Don't beat yourself up about it, unfortunately there are loads of people out there who will give our WAS's bad advice and help validate the most selfish of actions.


Hmm--do you think calling out your W, even if you have clear evidence of EA/PA, is pursing? How can I get past not just having fear/anxiety, but knowing for a fact something hidden is/was going on? How can I rebuild my own sense of trusting her?

While you have these fears and anxiety, you will not be able to move on in your own personal journey. Noone wants to be around someone who is anxious and fearful, the opposite to this is confident and strong - which is more attractive?

Like I said you won't get over the trust issues in a hurry, stop trying to fix your situation in double quick time. Have a plan, take it step by step, keep up your GAL activities & add to them.

When the penny drops for you, you'll start to understand all of this - like I said it took me more than a month for it to happen to me. You have to come to some realisations for yourself.

Bill

[ouroboros]

I have started reading "I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression" by Terrence Real.

I'm 50 pages into the book. I am blown away.
It's giving me a much better handle on WAW and my role in it.

If you're a man dealing with depression/abandonment, go read it.

[ouroboros]

I just meant anyone in your life that knows you. To a large extent she is, but you are married to her and whatever people say about your W - will reflect on you and your R. The only thing you have to gain by this becoming public knowledge right now is other people's sympathy. Is that what you want, for people to feel sorry for you?

Ah no, that's not my goal at all. The only reason I'd have for 'letting the cat out of the bag' would be to have one or two specific friends confront W so that she'd be in a place to confess to me.
And, your point is well made--even if it worked the way I imagine, at the very least it comes with other negative consequences.

If you want to repair your M someday, hanging your W out to dry & take all the stigma of cheating is not something I could recommend.

Absolutely. If it came across (intentionally or not) as me trying to hurt her by exposing this to people, it's a huge slap in her face.
But, are you telling me that her friends would just sympathize with her and it would make the stigma part of this feel more bearable for W? I think this is the central thing about which I'm confused--it sort of seems to me that it would be more pressure and stigma if it was exposed to other people. Maybe not.

I know you feel like lashing out in some way, but this would hurt both of you & the added pressure of what your friends, family and community think of you and your M, is not healthy or something you would want. So do something else to vent your anger constructively, you know exercise or hit a punchbag.

Yeah there's plenty of ways this makes me angry. And confused, hurt, betrayed, anxious, abandoned, remorseful. And, on good days--it makes me hopeful.
But I'm working those constructively as you recommend. Venting here is definitely one of them. And working out 3-4 times week. And fishing. And journaling. And reading (DB and others). And a DB coach. And IC. And cooking.

Maybe in the back of my mind there's some sort of punishment I want to give W for all this. But, primarily that's NOT my goal. Hell, I know W well enough that this secrecy and deceit are gnawing away at her soul. Here's what I see:

Admission: I think this is the best thing. All along I've been trying to find out how I can get her to admit EA/PA to me. I tried in MC, but W didn't take the bait. If she was in a place to admit this to me and to be honest, I think it would open a positive flood that could move us both forward substantially. Also, I could stop being distracted from DBing--this isn't the time to mess up my detaching.

Ignoring: Lets her continue with her fantasy, and possibly rekindle the EA/PA. I'm sure that it light a fire in her, that the excitement and thrill of it all were a major motivation pushing it so quickly to the bomb. At some point, it has to come out and it has to be clear this is completely out-of-bounds for me. Also, I don't think W has a concept of EA. I'm almost positive the bomb came before she made motions to make it a PA. So, if it wasn't a PA, then to W I'll wager it wasn't cheating. Even if it's ended (for now), I can't figure out if letting this stay this way is a good idea. It's completely possible that she's feeding off of a secret EA in a way that she thinks I'll leave her if I find out about it. That seems to be a good thing if it's happening.

Confronting: It is lesser option. I'm taking the initiative, not W, so the timing will be off for her. Also, possibility of rash decisions on her part. But, on a different level, it's me acting in a completely appropriate way. Under any other circumstance, I'd have called her out on this nearly immediately like any other good H. But, if she can't handle that shame or feels like I'm angry, it'll just make things worse at least in the short term.

[...] When the penny drops for you, you'll start to understand all of this - like I said it took me more than a month for it to happen to me. You have to come to some realisations for yourself.

Anybody got a penny I can borrow?
In all seriousness, helping me understand this is a really important thing for me right now--so thanks.
And please bear with me if I'm asking the same thing 4 times in different ways.

[ouroboros]

You know your trust has been betrayed - a confession or the details will not change anything for you or your W.

Here's where I really need LOTS of help, experience, and opinions.

I have clear evidence of at least an EA, maybe a PA.
W denied it when I asked during the bomb.
W denied it again when the MC asked her directly.
I also have evidence that the OP, at some point recently, likely broke it off.

I would have thought that having her admit the EA/PA would clear the air, allow for an honest discussion, and move us forward.

I would have thought confronting her on it would do the same thing, but with more risk because it would be more emotionally charged for both of us. If I did confront, I think doing it in MC would be safest but that's 2 weeks out.

Ignoring it completely seems to run the risk of me looking "weak" to her as well as grinding down my ability to DB. I need to be able to keep DBg. But, Bill makes a really strong point that she might be protecting me or our M on some level by hiding this, and that knowing the details will end up not mattering anyway.

I think Bill is right, but I am feeling dishonest not revealing what I know. And it's killing me.

Can you share your story, especially if you had evidence of your WAS EA/PA that you found post-bomb, and what you did about it? Did they admit? Did you confront? Ignore? Ignore for now? How did it go?

[Redo]

Ourobros : Just a suggestion. Perhaps i have learnt this from the past 1 year i spent in hell.

First off, i have to admit my situation was not as bad as yours. There was no OM or any crazy stuff. But there was a lot of 're-writing history'. I guess each one has their own hell.

In the beginning i used to be so caught up in the whole 'how can she do this. Why is she denying that etc'. I was tormented and angry. If there was one thing i learnt on how to get out of that hell, it was to let them all go. I know, hard to do. But it is only when you can let go of the fact that she is lying to you and not accepting that there is an EA/PA is when you can move out of that mad-drama and feel liberated. But it is your path and accept that it will take time. But i can promise you that the day these things stop bothering you, you will feel much better. You will feel that you can take on anything. That strength of conviction about yourself brings inner strength.

If you are following the mass murderer 'Brervik' case in Norway, one of the victim's mom was asked as to why she was not angry. Apparently she replied "I'll never give him the gift of my anger".

Good luck!

[ouroboros]

When you live with someone who's lying/deceiving/hiding something from you, yet you know the truth, you learn a lot about their tells.

I would wipe the floor with W if we were to play poker.

[breakdownbill]

Hi Ourboros

I think the key to all these trust issues, is what a lot of the more experienced Vets on here say, 'Don't believe half of what they say or what they do'.

The reason you can't find a rationale within yourself to trust your W, is because no matter what angle you look at it.. it's still broken.

I'm in the same boat - living with someone who has deceived me for a very long time, has confessed most of whatever she's done & has done very little if anything to regain my trust.

Until things change I won't trust my W and may never be able to trust her again (trust is earned and only YOU know if you trust someone- whoever they are).

Even if your W does confess to some things, trust me you'll always think they are holding back more information (they usually are). When someone lives a lie, they get used to doing it & start being their own cr*p to be the truth, because their take on things is always justified by something the LBS has either done or failed to do.

You are struggling with this & it's stopping you from moving forward at the moment.

Be honest with yourself & find out if this is a deal breaker for you & think about what you want from a relationship.

If it's not a deal breaker, you've got to find a way to compartmentalize this issue & crack on with the rest of your 180's & self improvements.

In the same cr*ppy boat & know exactly how you feel.

Bill