Stuck in Holding Pattern

[bustorama]

Standing up for your boundaries is always the right thing to do. So you did the right thing in saying, "I'm not OK with this OM situation." If she can't abide something centrally important to you, then you know anyway where you stand with her (right now).

My W, even at our first MC sessions (which came after SHE said she wanted our R back and after I almost walked away again because of her talking about not being sure about her feelings) said that she was unsure if she could ever regain feelings for me, if she even wanted to try, if we can ever really feel connected again, if she even loved me anymore or could ever love me like she did before or needed to. She said all those things. And how unnatural and forced our first date felt.

(I said something like, WTF, why are we even here then, I didn't come here for more of this, and the therapist had to settle me down). My point is that it's ok if that is where she is now. Don't push her for more. What our MC did (and what I should have done) was simply to validate her.

"Yeah, you don't feel like we can ever have the connection you want for a healthy marriage. It feels like to you like it just won't ever happen or be there. That you'll never really feel connected to me the way that you want to. And you wished you felt differently, right? I get that, W. That must suck to feel that way. And for things to feel so awkward, forced, and unnatural now, especially since we've been apart awhile."

(period) you don't try to fix it or convince her of anything.

Because in W's eyes, we never once had the connection she feels she needs in a marriage, she's having a very hard time with our reset plan.

Yeah, she is still partly in the WAS mindset, not quite defogged. Might be partly cause of the continuing contacts with OM. Partly because of the past and present distance between you. Don't argue her out of any of this. Just listen, and occasionally validate, and GAL.

She felt like it was forced, and our communication was very surface-level. MC tried to hammer home with her that its of course going to seem like that at first. We've had about at year of distance between us, and if someone told him to get in shape for a marathon, he couldn't do it in 3 weeks, it would take several months of hard work. He has no doubt in his mind that we can make the connection W expresses she needs. I believe it too, but don't really know what I can say to 'convince' her of that, so I said nothing.

Don't try to convince. Even your MC should be careful about trying to convince her of anything. (he is only in a position to do so if she already trusts him in some way). Just validate and keep GALing, doing your own thing. The steps have to come from her. Anything forced on her (or too structured) can backfire.

I told her I feel disrespected that she can't cut ties with him and that it's going to be hard for me to want to continue on knowing he's in the picture.

You can be even more vulnerable and say that you do not feel "safe" being in a relationship with her (or anyone else) that keeps having contact with someone that intruded on your R. Sometimes, disrespected can come across as too authoritative or controlling and can push people away. "Safe/unsafe" tends to pull people closer.

I'm just very frustrated that we're still in this situation and that I still do love her a lot, which is why I'm so conflicted.

Don't volunteer the love statements (yet). They are still pressuring/smothering to her if she is not feeling the same (yet). It's fine to say that you also are frustrated and conflicted about the situation, because you do still have feelings for her and would like to feel more connected to her, but that you also have a life to live. That's probably about where she is with you, recognizing that she has feelings for you and wishing she felt more connected with you.

I responded saying thanks and just saying I know this is confusing for both of us. Have a good day and good weekend.

Yep, spot on. Then you GAL (til she contacts you again).

[ben11]

Thanks for stopping but Busto. I really appreciate your insight. As crappy as my situation is, I'm glad to know I'm handling it in a way that at least gives me a chance for R.

I will definitely try remember to sub 'unsafe' with 'disrespected' if/when we discuss this again. I know she knows how I feel about it. I guess she just needs to decide if our chances of ever having that connection is worth throwing away whatever she currently has, or wants with OM.

(I said something like, WTF, why are we even here then, I didn't come here for more of this, and the therapist had to settle me down).

I did something pretty much to this extent last night too. I asked her if our connection is so bad and it was obviously good with OM, why isn't she with him now. I think she kinda shrugged and MC said "WHOA. Lets have a do-over on that one". I don't regret it. I even told her that parts of me wishes she just went ahead to find out what she had with OM if. I'm used to the pain, whats a bit more. MC wasn't too fond of my approach there.

Call it losing control of my emotions, call it whatever you will. I don't regret it. I am actually kind of appalled that she's even in MC, with this guy still in the picture, when she knows how I feel about it. I asked her to leave the night I found proof of them. Why would I not care now?

I'm gonna let it sit here over the weekend, but I certainly need to figure some stuff out. With me planning to move at the end of May, there will be a lot of things we'll need to sort out. We discussed the possibility of her helping me find a place, as well as how we'd divide our stuff if not. Either way, this is going to come soon, so I need to start preparing for that. If you, or anyone else has some suggestions, please fire away.

[hopingandpraying]

Hi,

My H and I were going through DB counseling while he was still talking to the OW, also. He even had a separate phone he was using to contact her, so that I wouldn't see it on the phone bill...real LOW! He lied through counseling and that hurt me the most.

He, now, has his own place and I've decided to go dark with him...meaning no contact and living my life without him, which feels so unnatural but that's what my DB coach said to do. I've tried this before...it only lasted a week each time, because I always found out more about his OW and confronted him about it. Maybe that was a mistake and a 180 for that would have been not to confront him, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

We also separated everything...savings, checking, auto insurance, and are even looking into refinancing our cars. I'm not going to do that unless we do sign D papers...that can come later. I'm not even sure I want him back to work on things, because he did have a EA/PA, which could still be ongoing, but I want to make sure I truly tried everything!!! I just don't understand how WAS just walk away from their lives they've created with the one person they were NEVER supposed to hurt!

Keep your head up! Things will get better!

[ben11]

Thanks HAP. My head is fully up. I don't know if I'm just starting to detach, or if I'm just numb to it all now, but either way, it's not haunting me.

The weekend was good. Spent time with friends. On Sat, I biked over to a friend's kid's 2nd birthday, 15km each way or so. Then drove out to another friend's twins's 2nd birthday 30min away (took car this time ;)). After that, I spent time with different friends and watched some playoff hockey. So good right now. Now if only my Canucks could win a damn game, 4 actually, then I'd be in better spirits.

My attitude about the situation hasn't really changed much. I'm starting to go over in my head how I want to approach the situation, but I'm fairly certain I want to get a separation agreement agreed upon so that I can truly start moving on with my life. With my upcoming move looming over my head, I just would love to move to a new place with a fresh start. Going to spend another week or so and ponder this, but right now, it's really what I'm leaning towards. I'm tired of waiting for what seems to be a miracle. If I can go about this with keeping the road home smooth and paved, then I think that's my best course of action.

Haven't spoke since Friday morning. Checked the mail today and saw she had some stuff from tax agency in the mail. Not sure if I should tell her that something came in. Could be important, but I don't really feel like coming outta the dark yet. It's kind of nice

[ben11]

Looking for some advice...

I'm thinking it's time to work out a separation agreement with my W. I'm not interesting in perusing a R and just want to move on with my life.

I was thinking of writing her an email which basically I would tell her that I'm sorry about my part in the breakdown of the marriage, validate her reluctance to wanting to try work out our M, and ask if she would help me move on by working on a separation agreement with me.

It's quite plain for me to see that she doesn't feel like we have ever had a connection strong enough for her, and that she's not going to give up OM to figure out what kind of connection we could create.

Clearly, that's out of my control. I can only control what I do, and what makes me happy. And this situation, this separation, has run its course. I'm ready to move on as it stands. I'm ready to be happy in this part of my life too. I feel like I just need to get some closure. I know it will be tough, it will be very sad, and I'll probably second guess it a lot, but I feel this is the only thing left to do.

Please, any feedback would be great. If you totally disagree, please let me know. Maybe I'm not thinking this through well enough...

[ben11]

Emailed the MC today. He's supporting my decision to move on. Coming from someone passionate about saving marriages, and someone who actually knows my W's side of the story, I am quite sure this is the direction I need to take.

Has anyone asked for a SA? I'm trying to figure out a way to do this as 'smoothly' as possible.

Again, any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated...

[25yearsmlc]

Emailed the MC today. He's supporting my decision to move on. Coming from someone passionate about saving marriages, and someone who actually knows my W's side of the story, I am quite sure this is the direction I need to take.

Has anyone asked for a SA? I'm trying to figure out a way to do this as 'smoothly' as possible.

Again, any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated...

Ben,

I read your whole thread...I have some comments and questions. I'll start with the questions. And I apologize for the length of this but I am including someone else's letter to her h, b/c I think it MIGHT represent how your w sees things and therefore might point you in a slightly different direction, or a major different one.

OKAY--

What is the goal of a separation agreement in your situation? I don't know your state so I don't know what purpose it serves there. For instance, Does one of you still need health insurance?

If you are so sure this M is over, why not divorce her? (Not suggesting it, but wondering why you'd bother with a SA).


Also, you wrote A LOT about how SHE would not change or work on the marriage although there was a lot of distance (geographically and then maritally) that led to problems. I am sure there were others b/c when you were together, somehow there was less intimacy and that cannot be all on her end.

From what I read in your thread, you didn't change much either. You use the word "test" a few times and I think "testing" our spouses is a bad idea. You were testing her and giving out ultimatums,

but you seemed to forget that

DBing is about working on YOU and then still working on you and THEN seeing if it helps the marriage. That's the "monitor for results" part.

I didn't see any 180s from you...are there some I missed? I mean it's easy to blame her, which you clearly do.

But where is the introspection and inner growth on your end?

What do you mean when you say you "tried" in the m?

I get the feeling you mean a few gestures, and not filing for divorce....

and when the were not reciprocated quickly enough, (or trusted by her as being real) then you withdrew, which proved her distrust was legitimate.

Also suggests your "changes" were tactics to get her back fast, but not real or genuine change in you or your approach...and certainly not long lasting.


Did you ever try to really address why your w would feel so lonely that she'd seek out OM, twice? How did YOU behave differently after you discovered the first EA?

Did you improve in your treatment and attentiveness, or were you just angry at her? What I got from your thread was mainly the latter.


My gut says she does love you but simply feels so neglected that when OM paid attention to her, she gobbled it up. Then you found out about it, and instead of trying to figure out how YOU could better meet her needs -and SHE could regain your trust,

you got angry, continued to "test" her, and pretty much stayed that way.

(I understand the anger and I am NOT defending the affairs. But I am wondering what YOU learned about YOU, from all this.

And how or why you don't seem to feel genuinely responsible for any of it.

** If I'm way off on this, please let me know and send me to the part where you say differently.***

While I used to understand the "take it or leave it" approach when there's an affair, I only get it IF there is no chance of a reconciliation.

It doesn't work that often if a woman feels unloved inside her marriage.

You both grew apart and neither of you did anything to change it. Even when danger signs appeared and she had her first EA,

all I got from your thread was how you wanted HER to get fixed at MC. Not how you'd spend the precious time you did have together, better...

IMO, like most WAWs, your w

will not want to reconcile -UNLESS-

she believes marriage to you now, & "from this day forward",

could be different/better.

So how have YOU shown her that it could be?

What is different in YOU or how you interact with her, that indicates any possible improvement?

If she thinks you'll hold the A over her head like the sword of Damacles

or throw it in her face every time you are upset, she won't come home. (Who would?)

So she may not feel like it's worth even trying...esp if the MC is re-hashing the past or just about how SHE has to do "x" and "y".

Is it possible that

If she sees no change in you, she may Prefer to take her chances w/OM b/c she knows with you she's getting too little attention and too much anger?

have you done any forgiveness work? Not b/c she "deserves" it, but b/c the anger you feel is clearly influencing your choices, and it hurts You.

You have not been at this for long, in my book. Your expectations of a rapid solution were not realistic b/c it takes a lot for a woman to feel emotionally disconnected from her own h, and then connected to another man.

**(At the end of this post, I will attach a letter from a WAW to her h, b/c her h expected her to return after he made some changes...

although I don't believe you're in his situation b/c I don't know of any radical changes on your end-

I think the letter has value b/c it may shed light on your w's perspective on things.)**


In any event, the separation agreement means different things in different states. In some places it ends up being the same thing as the divorce agreement as it's simply ratified more or less when the time requirements for divorce are met.

In other states it's not a legally enforceable document. I'm a L but don't know your state and cannot advise here anyhow. But I simply don't know what impact it would have

and or, your purpose in filing it. Is it a last ditch attempt to wake her up?

IF SO, know that it might not. But IF she does look your way or continue in counselling of some sort

what do you think YOU could do differently? It's important you look within b/c the real journey in life is an inward one.

Do you get that^^?

You don't want to be in the same place in your next r, and if you and your w do reconcile, you'll have to structure your marriage a new way with tools you don't have right now.

Any chance you could attend Retrovaille? It's a marriage retreat weekend for marriages in crisis, and it has worked wonders on many, including mine.

Good luck, and here's the post I thought might shed some light on your w's views...fwiw.

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.

I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
Me: 32, H: 32

[ben11]

Thanks for the response 25. I'm working a response now. A bit tough to respond logistically so that I'm answering all your questions but I'm working on it...

[ben11]

I'll respond in chunks to keep it somewhat coherent...

What is the goal of a separation agreement in your situation? I don't know your state so I don't know what purpose it serves there. For instance, Does one of you still need health insurance?

If you are so sure this M is over, why not divorce her? (Not suggesting it, but wondering why you'd bother with a SA).

In our province (Canada) you need to wait 1 year. It's something that is held up in court when the year is over.

I'm not using it as a tactic. I just want to officially figure out how we're dividing our shared possessions so that I can move homes knowing what's mine, and what I need to replace. I believe there are clauses in the SAs that if you get back together, that its nullified. So its not like a final nail in the coffin, I'm just trying to protect what I've worked hard for at this point.

[ben11]

Also, you wrote A LOT about how SHE would not change or work on the marriage although there was a lot of distance (geographically and then maritally) that led to problems. I am sure there were others b/c when you were together, somehow there was less intimacy and that cannot be all on her end.

From what I read in your thread, you didn't change much either. You use the word "test" a few times and I think "testing" our spouses is a bad idea. You were testing her and giving out ultimatums,

but you seemed to forget that

DBing is about working on YOU and then still working on you and THEN seeing if it helps the marriage. That's the "monitor for results" part.

I didn't see any 180s from you...are there some I missed? I mean it's easy to blame her, which you clearly do.

But where is the introspection and inner growth on your end?

What do you mean when you say you "tried" in the m?

I get the feeling you mean a few gestures, and not filing for divorce....

and when the were not reciprocated quickly enough, (or trusted by her as being real) then you withdrew, which proved her distrust was legitimate.

Also suggests your "changes" were tactics to get her back fast, but not real or genuine change in you or your approach...and certainly not long lasting.


Did you ever try to really address why your w would feel so lonely that she'd seek out OM, twice? How did YOU behave differently after you discovered the first EA?

Did you improve in your treatment and attentiveness, or were you just angry at her? What I got from your thread was mainly the latter.

After EA1, to be honest, I didn't do a lot of things different. I mean, sure, I tried this and that for a week or two, but when I didn't get what I wanted (sex) I said **** it. It's her problem.

I did try spending more time with her, but she was really avoiding me. By the end, she was going to functions that I would normally go to that I was no longer invited to. Not only did she not ask me, I was specifically said I shouldn't go.

I suggested going away for a weekend here or there, but was either due to her job or she didn't know how she felt that she wasn't into going.

We did also go to MC during this time, but as stated earlier in my story it didn't go well.

In short, I did a horrible job of showing her the man I know I can be. I was angry, was in a fog, and even at some times thought maybe 'we were fine' and didn't have a problem. After all, I didn't find out about a lot of our real issues until OM2. Was that my fault? Maybe, but my W wasn't even sure what our real issues were, or at least, wouldn't tell me when I tried to find out.