Seems to me you're on the right track with staying out of defensive mode - let her get it out, if in anger or hurt she says hurtful things be mindful of the emotional place she's in and don't take it personally, try to listen to what she's ACTUALLY trying to say beneath all that and let the counselor help draw that out
Me: 36 Her: 35 Together 7/09 Married 8/7/10 Separate rooms since at least April 11 "I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11 She moves out of state/files 2/7/12 Dissolution final 5/12
I agree with Kolja, your IC should be there to make the env't safe for both of you. Let him/her do the work. You are there to listen and validate. 25 wrote some mantras on another thread that I can;t find right now: Something like, I don;t remember it that way but I'm sorry you were hurt and If I had it to do over, I would do it very differently.
Of course you won't want to wear these out and sound like a robot.
Have you thought how the meaning of your thread name has changed?
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
So what do I do in IC if W gets angry? Or starts crying? My overall plan is to just sit back and listen and stay way the hell out of defensive mode. Nervous.....just trying to prepare.
Crimson
1) thank God she's not indifferent, b/c it means at some level, she still cares...
2) take a breath before you say ANYTHING, and think out how your tone MUST be different.
The content is lost, often totally, if delivered in a way that SOUNDS like anger or frustration on your end. Be the Dalai Lama if you have to...or at least, sound like him.
3) if she revises things too much -- for you--say "Wow, w, I sure don't recall it that way but I'm sorry you were upset/hurt by that."
4) IF she makes a valid complaint, partially or fully, and you have regrets
you say "Yes w, I'm sorry for that. IF I had it to do all over again, there are a Lot of things I'd do differently."
Neither answer escalates and both validate her perception without you being a doormat. I sometimes leave out the "I'm sorry" for others b/c they are too beaten down already
but in your sitch since it IS a message you want her to get, I might leave that in... You must get across your ability to change AND that change has already started. The goal is her learning to accept that. And read that letter from a WAW to her h to recall things from your w's perception...(Did I post it to you already? Let me know)
5) If she says something you simply have no answer for, you can say, "I bet there's a perfect response to that, but it just escapes me at the moment...I promise to ponder it carefully."
IF she asks how YOU feel, make sure you know if she's asking about how you feel for her, or about yourself. Then keep it simple.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I like everything 25 posted above. My initial thought when I read your questions was, "If your W cries or gets angry, it's the job of the counselor to manage that and your job to listen unless asked a question."
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
1) thank God she's not indifferent, b/c it means at some level, she still cares...
I wanted to touch on the above because it can be difficult in some situations.
When a spouse is on the roller coaster and sharing their feelings (either overtly or unintentionally), we know they are not indifferent. Even if that indifference is not directed specifically at the sitch.
In some instances, it's very hard to tell if a spouse is indifferent. My W very rarely shows any type of emotion other than that of normal engagement.
The most recent was her indication that she would not (could not; possibly intended to be interpreted as could not afford) want to pay to to file the D papers, now that the SA is completed. She closed by saying, "We'll have to think about it."
I can't mind read so I have no idea how indifferent she really is. What I can be sure about, though... is a person who wants to D would not complain about the cost of filing to their spouse as though it is some impossible hurdle, but would rather say nothing and simply plan to get the money together and file once the resources are available.
As in purgatory's thread where she indicates looking for the small (1%) positives... if my W really was indifferent and had no negative emotional investment in D, she could find the money to afford to D.
So, Crimson... consider yourself lucky and look for the positive IF your W is emotional during the counseling session...
and Crimson--fyi, I read over my journals from 2005 recently. (God what a mistake...mostly)
I got mad all over again at my h!!
But the Point is, I DID believe a lot of what I said then...and now I don't...
or it doesn't matter as much to me now...So nothing is written in stone.
Don't react to ALL the words that come out of her mouth. The one thing we "know" is that she's confused...she wants to process this.
MAYBE (and I hope this) she wants a 3rd party to make her feel safer...to help her believe in your changes.
Maybe the c will ask You questions...not just her.
We know your overall goal is restoring your m to a better one than before. We know. The old m is dead and good riddance... But for this counselling session, set other goals...like "not losing my temper"
or "not interrupting w"...."not correcting her perception or defending myself"...
make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Now that I know for certain that my wife isn't going to leave me my advice is try not to do too much talking. She will probably test you like my wife because she won't believe the things you wrote in the letter. I know she wants to believe but she will have her walls up that is why she wants the counselor there.
I did a lot of defending myself at the marriage counseling sessions and that is the last thing your wife wants to hear.
She wants to know your changes are real.
Every session I have gone through I always feel beat up and end up being the one that wants out of the marriage. After I have time to think about the things she brings up and really listen and try to see it from her perspective I calm down and try to figure out what she was missing from me and work on that.
After a few sessions I figured out the less I said the better. Not sure if its the right way but my wife is very stubborn and I know it will take time before she is 100% committed again. Just don't know how much time, lol.
Also don't answer anything until you have really thought it through. I'm really good at just acting like a know it all and makes my wife feel stupid.
Good luck, hopefully she gives you another chance and you can then show her the great guy you have become.
M 42 W 41 S 10 D 7 M 15 Years T 20 Years Divorce busted
Thanks all for the IC advice. I assure you, I will take all of it. To summarize: zip it, listen, NEVER interrupt, validate, stay calm and fairly unemotional.
So here's today's oddball Crimson/W update:
Today was my day to pick up son. I was out running errands this afternoon and my wife asked if I wanted to meet at this park by the house at 4:30. There is a quarter mile paved circular walkway there and she said he wanted to show me his "bike" (little radio flyer 3-wheeler that I can steer). I agreed and at about 4:15 I got a note from my W saying they were already there and I can come by whenever I was ready. I hopped in the car and headed over. I parked next to her and saw them walking up to the playground about 75 yards in front of me. S saw me and excitedly exclaimed "DADDY!! DADDY!!" - gotta tell you, that melts my heart. He hopped off of his little bike and ran straight to me - big spinning hug.
So, I was expecting W to do the "hand-off-and-run", but she kept walking with me and S as I pushed his bike. Again, it felt like we were a family and I felt sooooo stinking good in that moment. We walked around the paved track of the park just talking....she was telling me that he suddenly likes watching Fat Albert (odd) and we just kinda shared stories about him showing signs of the terrible twos. It was pleasant - and felt like I was talking to an old friend I hadn't seen in months (of course, she looked beautiful). We walked to the playground equipment - well, rather I chased after son saying "gonna get you!" while he ran from me and squealed in pure delight.
I walked around the playground equipment with him and my W, still talking and watching S. So I climbed up a little staircase with him to a slide and asked W some meaningless question and she gave an odd monosyllabic response. She was walking away from me and S and I could tell something was sorta bothering her. It was a very cloudy day, but I saw her put her sunglasses on - she was trying to hide tears. She walked to get his bike and S and I climbed down the stairs. I could tell the change in her affect for sure. But she still talked, and was pleasant.
We headed back to our cars in the parking lot and said our goodbyes. I gave her the old car charger and wall charger for my now-replaced BlackBerry. I could see her suppressing her sadness. I held S and said "say bye-bye mommy". Of course he did and she gave him a little kiss. She turned away and got into her car. I loaded S into his seat in my car. I turned around to see my W turning out of the park and onto the main street heading home. I am pretty sure I saw her wiping away tears.
In that moment, my heart broke for her and I didn't want her to be away from our S because I know how awful it feels and I always tear up when I drop him off with her. It just feels bad to see her hurt....it feels bad for us to be apart and not with our son. Being together with the three of us laughing, playing and talking just felt so uplifting.....no fights....no D talk....just the three of us living again. I would do almost anything to have that back.
So then, my head starts screwing with me and searching for answers....."well, Crimson, maybe she was crying because she realizes she doesn't love you anymore" - and so on. Ridiculous mind-reading, I know. But my head always goes to the worst possible circumstance for me....and that would be it.
The whole incident makes me nervous and apprehensive about the pending MC session (I actually bought new pants and a new shirt for it....crazy, I know). I know I might be at the beginning of a new phase with her - but my heart wants it to be reconciliation and not "acceptance of separation and divorce". *SIGH* I love and miss my family.
Don't know how to read today's interaction. Kinda glad she suggested the park - she could have just dropped him at the house and this gave us some time to interact. I was happy about that. I just wonder what she was crying about and why....I know, I know....get out of her head.
