Hate to hijack this thread but I love getting your perspective. My wife is also LD, but historically (before the bomb) she would ML once every two weeks or so "out of a sense of duty". She was definitely passive aggressive about it, and would take out her resulting anger in other ways. To your point, this was a symptom of many other things being wrong in our marriage.
One of the things we did as part of our piecing, is that we agreed that I would never escalate physical affection, and that I would not initiate ML, the frequency would be up to her. At the same time, she agreed that she would try to keep to a once per week schedule.
The agreement on my part not to escalate physical affection has worked wonders in many ways, as she doesn't have to be afraid that kissing me will lead to an expectation to ML.
After a month or so of this, we agreed to go back on "my agenda" for frequency, but I was tortured by it -- I never want to go back to the passive aggressive sex of the past where it's obvious that she's just not interested, that make me feel terrible.
Probably like many men, I believe that if I could make the experience better for her, she would like it more. As a result, I've asked her many times to tell me what feels good, what she likes, etc., but she won't do it. She said that even talking about ML at all makes her either angry, or makes her want to cry.
There is no history of sexual abuse, she is not a rape victim, but did have some negative experiences as a younger woman when she felt pressured and decided that it was easier to give in than to say no. That seems to have really effected her.
I would love for her to see a therapist to work through these issues so that we can have a better sex life, but she refuses, because she says that it doesn't cause any issues for her -- if I'm not talking about it she spends zero time thinking about it.
From my perspective, ML can be so good and so pleasurable. So many of the books I've read talk about the fact that a mutually satisfying sex life is essential to a mutually satisfying marriage, and that one tends to reflect the other in many ways.
I really hate the thought of spending the rest of my life with someone who really is not motivated to have a better time ML.
Can you lend any insights or suggestions? I'd like some perspective on how to think about this, and Arkansasguy, my apology for the hijack.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
One of the things we did as part of our piecing, is that we agreed that I would never escalate physical affection, and that I would not initiate ML, the frequency would be up to her.
To me this sounds wonderful - it shows such caring on your part. I had a thought that maybe you could continue alternating with "her" weeks and "your" weeks. So it's not like, ok we tried that and now we need to get busy and ML. Give her her turns indefinitely.
Quote:
even talking about ML at all makes her either angry, or makes her want to cry.
There's a lot of fear and hurt there. Probably thinking that she hasn't met your expectations all these years hurt her self-esteem. It definitely made me feel bad and inadequate when I wasn't happy with our sex life.
I think a possible key is to realize you can't make her like sex more, and you can't make her think a certain way. You can present to her the impact her behavior has on you - that if she could get help working through her fears and anxieties you'd feel it was a tremendous act of love for you.
Negotiating is important too - if you get her to agree to something that she then feels resentful about, there wasn't really a successful negotiation, she just backed down. Her need to not ML is as legitimate as your need to ML, and you've got to meet her needs in the negotiation as well as yours. Her needs could change but you can't just tell her they're not valid.
Have you been to MC together? That could be a place to start where she might later become more comfortable with the idea of IC. (It worked that way for me.) If the purpose is to go get her to want to ML, she might resist the idea, but if the purpose is to help you and her communicate your needs better and negotiate so that your M meets both of your needs as best as it can, maybe that's not so threatening.
I wish I had better answers for you, but I only can tell you what I would think or feel in similar situations. I think you have a lot going for your M now, and patience on this issue could help generate the goodwill required for her to want to get help just to benefit you and your M. I'll think more and be happy to share my viewpoint more if it helps.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
ssmguy...yes she wants it both ways. It is SELFISH for me to want it, but not SELFISH for her to cut me off for lack of a better term. She has stated big D if I cheated. She wants it both ways.
I do realize the lack of sex is not the issue, but the result.
The headaches, tiredness is all a bad excuse. That's all they are excuses. I am tired after work, but I still do the dishes, etc.....If she was soooo tired after work...she would go to bed. Does she? No...she'll sit up and watch tv till 11pm.
I am here because I want to fix this versus divorce, have an affair/hire a hooker, or jerk off and quit bitching.
As for the passive aggressive stuff....at this point...NOTHING is working.
I am composing by B@#$/complaint list
I work 40 hours a week...she works 60 I take care of the kids 2hrs a day SOLO . 10hours a week....21 when she works saturdays.
Houscleaning, dishes, etc is 100% me. Diner She will actually cook once or twice a week. Same with me...takeout the rest.
The household chores she does, is her laundry and the kids. (I will mess it up) Funny my clothes come out fine.
She asks me for something...2 or three times a day. Can you open this, Let's all go to Walmart......I do all this stuff like a good little husband and when I try anything sexual, I get shot down immediately. Really? SO what is the point of trying at the moment?
I am not a husband or partner to her. This marriage is not 50/50...90/10 with me doing 90% and thats being generious.
She could come home to a clean house, kids asleep, dinner on the table, I could rub her feet, give her a 6 hour massage and she'd still tell me to sleep on the couch.
The signal she is sending is she wants
#1 a babysitter/nanny for her kids. #2 a maid to clean her house #3 a yardman to do the yardwork. #4 a roomate to spilt the bills.
She has clearly indicated she does not want #1 an equal partner #2 any asssemblance of a husband
She has clearly stated that she #1 has no desire want or need for intimacy or sex(at least not with me) #2 Has no caring or feeling for me whatsoever.
In all honesty....If we had NO kids I would have divorced her long ago! I was married and divorced once before. 1st wife cheated on me and married the guy. Having to live without my first kid and the pain it caused IS the primo factor in trying to save marriage #2. I have 2 kids with wife 2.
I am not happy, angry, and resentful. I do not want to live like this. I am glad I can vent here because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere.
I read over your whole thread again and you are gridlocked. Your W is making all the rules and bullying you when you push back. You do not want to get a "D", so you are afraid of making an ultimatum, because you do not want to enforce the "or else..."
I have been there!
I really don't think there is any way out of this without talking to your W and getting her to listen. That MAY require an ultimatum, and follow up to that discussion may require another ultimatum.
Therefore, you need to do a gut check: it's clear that this problem isn't going to solve itself, your W has indicated she is not willing to change, and in your view, you're doing everything you can without W's participation. *Are you willing to stay in this marriage assuming things don't change?*
If the answer to that question is "yes", then you need to work on getting used to 12x per year (or less), and figure out how you can approach W with a positive attitude in that context.
When I read your posts, you have many more complaints than just lack of sex. You fundamentally believe your contributions to the marriage are unbalanced, in your view 90%/10%. Reading between the lines, you would be willing to accept that if the sex were there, but without the sex, everything about it bothers you.
If the answer to your gut check is "No", then you need to confront W about the need to work with you, and make sure she understands that you mean it -- which may mean packing your bags and getting the h%*@ out *for now*. Withdrawing and becoming roommates will just create a self-reinforcing negative cycle. You will withdraw because you are not getting your needs met, your W will resent you for withdrawing and do even less to meet your needs, which will make you resentful and withdraw more, and around you go. Pretty soon you're in passive-aggressive hell.
My suggestion for your *initial* ultimatum would be to point out that you don't believe either of you are satisfied with the state of the M, that it's not just about sex. Explain that you would like the M to be mutually better, and you're willing to do the work to make it so. Although you're willing to put in the effort you can't do it alone, and you need her to work with you. If she refuses, starts to bully you, etc. Don't get emotional, remain calm, do not raise your voice. Simply state that she can choose to work with you on this or not, you can't force her. If she decides not to, then you will have your own decisions to make.
This is "high stakes poker", so you really have to make sure you're willing to follow through before you do it. Are you there yet? You sound like you're getting close.
If she DOES agree to work with you, definitely consider a good MC. She's not happy or getting her needs met either. If she were, she wouldn't be so quick to tell you to get out. She needs to step up in the area of ML, but you are going to need to step up in other ways too.
Per my other post, a couple things that worked with my W were to agree that I would never escalate physical touch -- which is to say that she could hug me without me pulling her towards the bedroom afterwards, etc. That "takes the edge off" and allows for physical contact without anxiety on her part.
The second is that I told her I would not initiate ML, but that I would like to ML X times per month, and I'd like her to make that happen.
I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" which you may enjoy, it talks a lot about LD. It's usually not caused by any one specific issue, the root of it is usually very complicated.
--Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
....I do realize the lack of sex is not the issue, but the result.
The headaches, tiredness is all a bad excuse. That's all they are excuses. I am tired after work, but I still do the dishes, etc.....If she was soooo tired after work...she would go to bed. Does she? No...she'll sit up and watch tv till 11pm.
I am here because I want to fix this versus divorce, have an affair/hire a hooker, or jerk off and quit bitching.
As for the passive aggressive stuff....at this point...NOTHING is working.
....She asks me for something...2 or three times a day. Can you open this, Let's all go to Walmart......I do all this stuff like a good little husband and when I try anything sexual, I get shot down immediately. Really? SO what is the point of trying at the moment?
...She could come home to a clean house, kids asleep, dinner on the table, I could rub her feet, give her a 6 hour massage and she'd still tell me to sleep on the couch.
....She has clearly indicated she does not want #1 an equal partner #2 any asssemblance of a husband
She has clearly stated that she #1 has no desire want or need for intimacy or sex(at least not with me) #2 Has no caring or feeling for me whatsoever.
In all honesty....If we had NO kids I would have divorced her long ago! I was married and divorced once before. 1st wife cheated on me and married the guy. Having to live without my first kid and the pain it caused IS the primo factor in trying to save marriage #2. I have 2 kids with wife 2.
I am not happy, angry, and resentful. I do not want to live like this. I am glad I can vent here because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere.
Now that your vent is over, let's look at the words as words have meaning.
You understand that this is not about sex. Good.
You know that you are angry and resentfull. Fine. By the way as your wife for a number of years, she also knows that from what you say, how you say it and your body language.
Yes, life is not fair. Take a number.
Why do you think she is asking you for things? Is it because she needs you to do them, or could it be her way of trying to make contact with you in as disfunctional way as it may be?
Are you sure she has no desire or need for intimacy or feeling for you? I felt that was what my wife was saying. What I learned was that she felt embarrised and like a sexual failure and that the problems were really with her and not about me. Are you absolutely sure he doesn't care about you?
Maybe she needs to heal before she can reach out to you in a way that you want her to reach out to you.
You might try to work on GAL and forgiving her. Rather than looking at her for what you want/need, focus on meeting your needs (not your carnal wants, but your needs) and the needs of your children.
Just a thought.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I was the LD partner in my marriage but felt like I was (and still am) doing 90% around the house. My advice (take with a grain of salt since I'm not sure I should give advice in my shoes!)
--I got angry/bitter about doing everything with the house/kids while H felt he could work extra hours, go out with coworkers, etc. (I also work full-time). In retrospect, I should have hired a babysitter for myself more often, and done more for me. This is still very hard for me to justify, but I needed to be happier and that would have helped. Get a life, enjoy the kids, versus slaving every night over things that just need to be done again the next night.
--Your wife is likely responding at least partly to your attitude around her. I would try a better attitude (maybe read the Happiness Project or Divorce Remedy) to help let go.
--Can you get her to counseling? We found a good counselor/sex therapist but it was too late (hopefully we will have another chance) Maybe there is an opportunity to get her talking and "restart" your marriage in a better way.
--Read the 5 Love Languages book...it may help. She may need something completely different than your acts of service to feel loved.
--Talk to her and be ready to leave if she really won't change (and you have made changes in yourself). Don't have an affair. She may need a wakeup call and she doesn't sound very happy either.
M 44, H 46 D11, D9, D5 Married 12 years PA confirmed 9/2011 I filed 3/2012 H moved out 7/2012
After reading your posts, all I got was that you're keeping score for the things you and her do. First off, this isn't a competition. If you want to do the dishes, housework, etc. then do it. If you don't, then don't. But don't do it just because you expect something back or that it should be fair.
In terms of your actions to change things. I really haven't seen anything that would make her attracted to you. I mean, so you stopped sexual advances. While that's fine for guys, women don't work that way.
Have you tried showing your W affection? I don't mean grabbing her @$$, but complimenting her and hugging her out of the blue? You aren't going to get immediate results, but give it time. You never know. You have to feed her emotions for her to give physically.
Next, I'd get rid of the old resentment you have about your XW. You seem to compare the two quite a bit and how you feel victimized by both. They aren't co-conspirators. Don't let your W pay for the sins of your XW. That's over with.
Think about it this way. When you meet a girl that you like for the first time, what do you? Grab her? Slip your tongue down her mouth? Of course not. You figure her out first. You engage.
Try that out. It's better than being pissed off all the time.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
