W is angrier after my 180's - time + consistency

[2thepoint]

I wasn't going to post about my sitch today.... It's all Gunny's fault! :o)

Here it comes folks - long post straight ahead!

Sunday started off as bad as might be expected considering the circumstances. The tension was so THICK that you could have sliced it into 2" thick steaks and BBQ'd it on the grill. Part of it was of my own doing due to my dread of telling the boys and of course my W's demeanor was much like my own.

W was very erratic yesterday. She almost rear-ended a car in front of us and almost ran a red light (didn't even notice it was red). Clearly her mind was on other things, and she even said as much which I validated by saying "yes it is!"

After attending S9's soccer game we came home and I went into the MB to continue packing and making the bed when W knocked on the door. The plan I suppose was to work through the logistics of telling the boys about our split but instead we ended up talking for nearly 3 hours!!! As I reflect back, we never, ever have talks like that. Hmmmmm.

Anyway, we covered a variety of subjects during that 3 hours, all related to us, our kids, our feelings, regrets, hopes, etc.

In the most loving way I could possibly muster I told my wife that I knew for certain she was having an A and that I could not and would not share her heart with OM. I told her in no uncertain terms that I accept where she is at this time and that I can't do anything about it. I told her that I will not pursue or pressure her for a R. That if we ever get to that, that it will be up to her and that I will not wait forever. (Busto - your words were ringing in my head).

Of course W tried to deny but I made it known without being unnecessarily specific that I knew beyond doubt and she didn't try to deny further (didn't admit either). She did ask since I was sure she had an A why would I want to be with her.

I told her that my love for her is much deeper that she could possibly imagine and that forgiveness is what allows me to move forward. That forgiveness is the path out of hell (voice of 25 coming through loud and clear!) both physically, emotionally and spiritually. I told her that she must also be able to forgive; me and herself if she hopes to find peace in her life..... from this day forward!

Conversation was leisurely and we covered a lot of territory, including some revelations about some hurtful things that occurred between her and her father when she was in HS that really play into some of her depression related problems she experiences today.

I told her one of my biggest regrets was that I didn't accompany her to see her father when he had had a heart attack right after we were married. She reminded me that although that hurt, what hurt more was that she had to take a cab home from the airport when she returned.

This led into a whole host of other past transgressions, all of which I have vague recollections of but clearly hurt her in ways
I hadn't realized. My memory will never be as good as her's or any woman for that matter, but I'm certain that in my mind there were logical reasons for decisions I made or behaving the way I did. This is where my growth will come into play for the future.

And this..... W tells me that since we moved from X city 13 years ago I haven't been happy. This may be true. She has said this before. Bus this time I asked her if she has been happy since we moved from X city and she says no.

DING, DING, DING - we have a winner! Now I wonder if my unhappiness for 13 friggin years may have anything to do with my W's unhappiness for the same amount of time! She did't want to move. We moved anyway. She has been unhappy and has let me know in ways that are obvious and subtle. So another new area for growth!

As we continue to talk I tell her that I had read the 5LL's and that I was certain I know what her LL is. She asked me what, I said Acts of Service. She said yes that is true and went on to remind me of a card I once gave her after I had lost my job and was out of work for 9 months.

In that card I had thanked her for sticking by me and for her words of encouragement and support, and I told her how much she meant to me. I also included a gift certificate for a massage.

She said that the card and my note meant more to her than the gift that was included. She doesn't need gifts. It was the affirmation and acknowledgement that melted her heart.

You'd think that after 18 years I would have figured that out by now! God I am such a slow learner.

Anyway she wanted to know what I thought was my LL and I told her Physical Touch. And I said that I wasn't talking about sex. That an affirming squeeze of the knee, a warm embrace, an unexpected kiss on the cheek, holding my hand, etc. would melt my heart in ways she could not even imagine. Unfortunately these are not areas that my W is strong in. So we both have work to do!

So since we were being open with each other (and I hear Sandi's voice saying.... Don't you get it? She's not being open about her A with the OM!!) we continue to share and I tell her of something of which I have never told anyone about an event in my childhood, (not going to go in detail here) and she says, it all makes perfect sense now!

So, now she has some context that perhaps she didn't have before. Will it hurt or harm? Who knows? All I know is I'm glad I told her and I think the setting and flow of conversation made it appropriate to share.

My W says that we both need time to heal. She needs space, space, space (hmmm, where have I heard that before?). I told her my Telephone Coach (DB coach) said that perhaps the most unselfish thing I could do was move out per her request and give her the space she so desires. W nodded in agreement.

We also talked about spiritual matters. I went to church again on Sunday and the sermon was on being joyful in the face of pain and suffering. W was intrigued by this. Really quite interested. We talked about the church's contemporary service vs. the traditional one and she said she preferred the traditional service. I think I do too.

So anyway, we plan to tell the boys on Tuesday due to schedules and such. But I feel surprisingly better about things now than I did Sunday morning. I feel like W and I connected in a meaningful way and there is some understanding on both of our parts that was not there before.

Now, I had an IC session today and I shared this story and my C reminded me that in all of this there was the 800lb gorilla (OM) staring my W in the face and that she instead chose to focus on all the little chip monks in the corner. He says she was deflecting, and he is probably right. Says that she has made conscience decisions while many of my behaviors are more of who I am, so don't beat my self up so much and shoulder all the blame.

All good advice!

To sum things up. What my W and I talked about probably wasn't the best thing I could have done from a DB perspective but I do feel more at ease about things. I have new information that I didn't have before and so does my W. All of which will play an important role in our healing and maybe a R down the road.

So forward we march into the great unknown.....

[2thepoint]

I forgot to add. When we wrapped up our conversation, we embraced for several long seconds and my W said "thank you for telling me".

[25yearsmlc]

I forgot to add. When we wrapped up our conversation, we embraced for several long seconds and my W said "thank you for telling me".

You feeling better DOES matter. Not sure how DBing or "not DBing" it all was. Parts of it seemed to help you both, staying calm and expressing things never said OR heard by the other, before, correct?

That's progress in my book.

I disagree, In part, with your c's statement or inference that your w "deflected" from talk about the OM.

To your w, OM is not the issue or problem. He's the RESULT of it.

Hence the importance of YOUR sharing your private experiences

and the importance of LL talk and what you both have learned.

Now when she sees that the grass isn't so green on the other side, she can ALSO think that maybe it IS greener on your side, now that you "water it more" b/c you have changed,

and you two understand each other better. Seeds may have been planted.

That's a goal, right?


But 2t, IF you become the man you want to become,

if you make this struggle up the mountain and you finally,

after some falls and slides, and painful scrapes,

IF you ultimatly get to the TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN and are the man YOU NEED/WANT TO BECOME...

and she believes this

BUT does not want you, then so be it.

You'll have to accept that and move on gracefully, and hey, it COULD happen.

But in my opinion,

it's rare that a WAW keeps on going, when there are kids involved,

AND

she honestly believes the changes in her spouse are real and lasting.


It's possible, but rare. And you'll have to deal with it IF it comes to that. But we are far from that point right now. Far from it...

[gunny]

2,
Glad for you that you got a chance to discuss some of the things that have been on your mind lately. It will be interesting to see if their is any pullback in the next couple of days on your s part. I am happy for you that it has brought you some solace. Thanks for keeping us abreast, continue to lean forward!
Gunny

[2thepoint]

You feeling better DOES matter. Not sure how DBing or "not DBing" it all was. Parts of it seemed to help you both, staying calm and expressing things never said OR heard by the other, before, correct?

Yes, that would be correct.

That's progress in my book.

I completely agree!

Now when she sees that the grass isn't so green on the other side, she can ALSO think that maybe it IS greener on your side, now that you "water it more" b/c you have changed, and you two understand each other better. Seeds may have been planted.

That's a goal, right?

Absolutely!

But in my opinion,

it's rare that a WAW keeps on going, when there are kids involved,

AND

she honestly believes the changes in her spouse are real and lasting.

One of the things I asked her last night was whether or not she believed that people can change, whether she thought I could change, whether she thought she could change. And her answer to all 3 questions was, yes!

Now I just need to demonstrate real, lasting change. And, yes, we are far from the point of no return. And this is why I'm inspired!

[BklynMom]

WOW 2tp. It is amazing to hear your positive post after such a hard couple of days.

Your dignity & grace will carry you far. Keep it up, you are doing great.
(((())))

[25yearsmlc]

WOW 2tp. It is amazing to hear your positive post after such a hard couple of days.

Your dignity & grace will carry you far. Keep it up, you are doing great.
(((())))

agreed...I feel as if you are maxing your chances at reconciling...

but you know, IF it doesn't all work out the way you hoped, it won't be

b/c you put your pride, or anger, or "controlling issues" ahead

of loving efforts, growth and change.

Someone in addition to you, will benefit from this growth and evolution of yours.

You can hold your head high, no matter what...THAT IS SOMETHING REAL...

[bustorama]

It sounds like you guys had quite a talk! Communication and intimacy good, good, good, when originated by her (though she still was not fully honest or intimate about the A).

Of course W tried to deny but I made it known without being unnecessarily specific that I knew beyond doubt and she didn't try to deny further (didn't admit either).

I'm curious how she denied it? "Just friends" "total denial" of OM's existence? What were her expressed feelings/emotions? Anger? Fear/Anixety? Nonchalance?

She did ask since I was sure she had an A why would I want to be with her.

This is a common, but often unconscious/unvoiced, question by WAW. Your WAW came out and said it.

Sometimes WAW devalue their H when their H pursue them with this thought in the back of their minds ("Sheesh, why does this guy want to be with me if I am running around on him and don't want to be with him. He must not be worth much.").

The question might also reflect guilt about the A that is worsened by pursuit from the H (so they want the H to stop pursuing them so they don't feel pressured or guilty).

The question might also reflect disbelief that you now (or ever really) cared about her, especially NOW that she is in the thick of an A.

You don't want to mindread through any of these (though if you keep listening to her as you should, you might get a sense of which it is). The reality is that your wife is right. You DON'T want to be with her while she is having an A (do you?). As much as you may have effed up in the past (and yes you did), you as a person deserve more and will do the work on yourself to get there.

You want to be with (the memory) of your wife NOT having an A -- the qualities of your W that you love, when she is in an R with you. That's not who your W is right now. It's not a trivial distinction. Really think about what it means.

You will certainly keep working to be the type of guy whose W wants to be with him and not have an A on him, but so will your W need to change things in order to be ready to rejoin into an R with you.

Forgiveness snip

Yes, you will need to forgive and regain trust in each other, BUT be careful TELLING her what she NEEDS to do (controlling, reflects your feelings/wants, not hers).

Or telling her you forgive her before she asks you to forgive her or shows signs of guilt, remorse or approach towards you. I didn't get from what you wrote that she said she was sorry for the A (or intended to stop it). Did you? If she's not in a place of remorse towards you (i.e., still angry at, hurt or resenting you), then you telling her that you forgive her comes across bad -- as disconnected from her feelings/hurt/etc or just in denial of her "reality" ('I've got a new guy that I'm swooning over'). It also may come across as your not valuing yourself ("W, you can step on my face and trample me all you want, I will forgive you each time you put your heel to my head.")

Conversation was leisurely and we covered a lot of territory, including some revelations about some hurtful things that occurred between her and her father when she was in HS that really play into some of her depression related problems she experiences today.

I told her one of my biggest regrets was that I didn't accompany her to see her father when he had had a heart attack right after we were married. She reminded me that although that hurt, what hurt more was that she had to take a cab home from the airport when she returned.

This led into a whole host of other past transgressions, all of which I have vague recollections of but clearly hurt her in ways I hadn't realized. My memory will never be as good as her's or any woman for that matter, but I'm certain that in my mind there were logical reasons for decisions I made or behaving the way I did. This is where my growth will come into play for the future.

LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN to her. Talk sparingly. Nod, validate, yes tell me more about that. I can only imagine how that made you feel. Resist explaining yourself, defending yourself or justifying yourself ('the logical reasons'). They don't do anything for her hurt and come off as defensive. Oh God, I'm so sorry I hurt you like that, W. Period. Let her talk/share more then.

And this..... W tells me that since we moved from X city 13 years ago I haven't been happy. This may be true. She has said this before. Bus this time I asked her if she has been happy since we moved from X city and she says no.

DING, DING, DING - we have a winner! Now I wonder if my unhappiness for 13 friggin years may have anything to do with my W's unhappiness for the same amount of time!

She's told you something very important here. That your depression is not attractive to her. That it is not one of the parts of you that she fell in love with. (And I bet it's not one of the parts of her that you fell in love with).

Yes, it is sad how that depression (or negative feelings) in our partner, can make us depressed and vice versa, creating a vicious cycle. Who wants to be with someone that is down, angry, etc. all the time? I felt the same way, and it turned my wife off -- vicious cycle time.

However, it doesn't have to be that way. Be careful not to 'attribute/justify' your negative feelings to her depression (either to her or to yourself). YOU are responsible for your own emotional well-being. She is not strong enough to control your thoughts and feelings from outside of you. That's your mind. Own it.

There are things you can do to break yourself out of a funk. You could exercise, call/write/go out with friends or family, see a shrink, do some GAL activity (GAL is for all times, not just DBing). You could have turned to your W about how you were feeling (instead of into your own depressed thoughts/feelings). W, when I see you in a funk, or angry, or down, I feel in a stanky funk because [X]. W, I feel stanky funk now because [X] happened to me. Or you could use those CBT techniques that you are learning now to challenge your depressive thoughts or schemas.

She did't want to move. We moved anyway. She has been unhappy and has let me know in ways that are obvious and subtle. So another new area for growth!

Again, so important what she told you. Before moving, did she voice her opinion (even once, softly) and and the decision was made to move anyway? And then after moving she kept voicing her pleasure directly and indirectly. To no avail. If we don't listen to them, they experience being steamrolled by us, over and over and over. And they learn not to trust us or share with us. Certainly not directly, maybe indirectly, passive-aggressively, or aggressively, eventually not at all. Because we will just steamroll them again.

As we continue to talk I tell her that I had read the 5LL's and that I was certain I know what her LL is. She asked me what, I said Acts of Service....You'd think that after 18 years I would have figured that out by now! God I am such a slow learner.

Listen, watch, and keep learning =)

Now, I had an IC session today and I shared this story and my C reminded me that in all of this there was the 800lb gorilla (OM) staring my W in the face and that she instead chose to focus on all the little chip monks in the corner.

There are two aspects to this, but I partly agree with 25 here. The OM IS a gorilla in the room that can wreak havoc on your R/M, and yes, your W wasn't forced to it. Bad act.

BUT it is missing the point to devalue your W's feelings and hurts and call them chipmunks. Those accumulated into a chimpunk from hell that broke the doorframe of your R so that your W FELT justified in allowing a gorilla to enter the room. To rebuild the house, both the elephant and the gorilla in the room will need to vacate the premises.

Her conscience choice, yes. But, you admit that you made some (less conscience) mistakes in the relationship. Negligence and ignorance of the law are still punishable. Two sides of the fence to be fixed.

Keep DBing/GAL/especially PMA, and good luck telling the kids!

[bustorama]

BTW, I forgot to say that I admire your honesty with your W and yourself. I also admire your grace in respecting (not agreeing with, but respecting) her choices and feelings in the face of your own challenging emotions.

[2thepoint]

Everyone, thanks for your kind words of encouragement. It helps me to keep my head on straight and my focus directed on the right things.

Busto:

I'm curious how she denied it? "Just friends" "total denial" of OM's existence? What were her expressed feelings/emotions? Anger? Fear/Anixety? Nonchalance?

She said that they were just friends and that he was having a difficult time in his life and she was trying to help. I told her that when she first started to communicate with him on a regular basis that it bothered me and at that time we actually discussed it, (she had offered to stop). But, I told her that although I was bothered by it, I didn't stop her because I felt like she needed that friendship/connection because it was lacking elsewhere in her life. I also told her that now I regret it deeply because it developed into much more than a casual friendship.

The question might also reflect guilt about the A that is worsened by pursuit from the H (so they want the H to stop pursuing them so they don't feel pressured or guilty).

I think that is a correct analysis. Lots of grief and guilt.

Yes, you will need to forgive and regain trust in each other, BUT be careful TELLING her what she NEEDS to do (controlling, reflects your feelings/wants, not hers).

Or telling her you forgive her before she asks you to forgive her or shows signs of guilt, remorse or approach towards you. I didn't get from what you wrote that she said she was sorry for the A (or intended to stop it). Did you? If she's not in a place of remorse towards you (i.e., still angry at, hurt or resenting you), then you telling her that you forgive her comes across bad -- as disconnected from her feelings/hurt/etc or just in denial of her "reality" ('I've got a new guy that I'm swooning over'). It also may come across as your not valuing yourself ("W, you can step on my face and trample me all you want, I will forgive you each time you put your heel to my head.")

Since she didn't admit the A, she was not going to demonstrate any remorse. That will come in time I suppose. I understand your point about forgiveness needing to be requested. However, I had two specific objectives in sharing that with her.

First, in order for me to move on, I cannot harbor any resentment or anger. I can't control what she does and it does me no good emotionally to hold on to that anger. I can't grow if I can't forgive. So I choose to forgive.

Second, in order for my W to reach a point of remorse and to be able to look back and see that there is a path home, I had to assure her that the path was visible, smooth and paved.

Again, so important what she told you. Before moving, did she voice her opinion (even once, softly) and and the decision was made to move anyway? And then after moving she kept voicing her pleasure directly and indirectly. To no avail. If we don't listen to them, they experience being steamrolled by us, over and over and over. And they learn not to trust us or share with us. Certainly not directly, maybe indirectly, passive-aggressively, or aggressively, eventually not at all. Because we will just steamroll them again.

Yes, before we moved she said she did not want to move. But I wore her down and she relented. It was a big promotion for me and I knew it would set my career on an upward trajectory. So yes, she felt steamrolled and this has been my pattern throughout our M. It is a huge area of focus for me. And one that I must conquer.

And, her unhappiness since we moved then has continued to this day and it has caused me to be unhappy as well and on a subconscious level to be very regretful (viscous cycle).

So, this is a significant part of whree I must grow. I need to listen and accept. Choose my battles much more carefully. Let my W guide me more instead of me running roughshod over her and her desires. Big area of focus!!!

BUT it is missing the point to devalue your W's feelings and hurts and call them chipmunks. Those accumulated into a chimpunk from hell that broke the doorframe of your R so that your W FELT justified in allowing a gorilla to enter the room. To rebuild the house, both the elephant and the gorilla in the room will need to vacate the premises.

Her conscience choice, yes. But, you admit that you made some (less conscience) mistakes in the relationship. Negligence and ignorance of the law are still punishable. Two sides of the fence to be fixed.

I understand. I told the C that she didn't unload all her "chipmunks" out of the blue or in reaction to the discussion about the A. It came about after I told her of my regret about not accompanying her when her dad had had his heart attack. This opened the door for her to share other past hurts that I hadn't realized or had forgotten.

So, I get what the C was saying but I also realize that I'm no innocent party here. And frankly, I'm glad my W shared some of those things with me. It gave me a view into the depth of her anger and resentment and allows me to better understand where my behaviors are destructive to the fabric of our relationship.

Now I need to figure out how to adjust my thinking and modify my selfish behavior so that I am a better, more trustworthy and respectful man. That is my focus going forward.