W is angrier after my 180's - time + consistency

[NewHorizons]

2thepoint,

Just a quick note. Situations such as yours are, in my own humble opinion, where DB is a bit weak. As long as there is another person in the picture there will be very little progress in restoring a relationship.

Believe nothing that she says and only half of what she does. From my perspective she wants you out of the house to ease her guilt and allow for unfettered access to her OM. Every day she sees you is a reminder of what she's doing wrong, not necessarily about your past. She's using your past behaviour to excuse her current poor choices. There is no excuse for what she is doing and deep down it is causing conflict.

Personally, I wouldn't move out and I wouldn't allow her more than 50% of time with the kids out of the house. Why you can't strive for that is a mystery to me as I saw my late brother singlehandedly raise 2 kids that way.

Just my 2cents. Just another opinion.

//NH

[gunny]

hello 2
The divorce care stats are interesting. I have my next meeting next monday, last meeting dealt with depression. It was very good. The people I have met at these meetings are very nice, starting to get to be friends with some of them, great support system.

Sounds like you have things pretty well thought out, like you have a strategy. Good for you, I Admire you for working so hard to stay on good terms with sp. It will pay dividends somewhere down the road.

Forgivness was the topic of my churchs sermon last Sunday, I guess someone up there is trying to tell us something!!
Have a good day 2

[25yearsmlc]

2thepoint,

Just a quick note. Situations such as yours are, in my own humble opinion, where DB is a bit weak. As long as there is another person in the picture there will be very little progress in restoring a relationship.


and You believe that you know how to get the OP out of the picture? Tell us.

IMPROVE DBing...(without which I would have divorced 6 years ago.)

Believe nothing that she says and only half of what she does. From my perspective she wants you out of the house to ease her guilt and allow for unfettered access to her OM.

you are mindreading...but okay...and you think if he is out of the house ALL her guilt will be gone? Wow, I guess we don't agree. She'll feel the guilt she feels, or not.

But w/2t in the house, she'll also continue to feel frustrated with him b/c THEY are NOT doing so well together in the same house, in case you have not read the whole thread.


Every day she sees you is a reminder of what she's doing wrong, not necessarily about your past.

what?? Not to me! Yes there are different opinions for sure...

[b] She's using your past behaviour to excuse her current poor choices.[/b]

well of course she's using the past behavior to influence her present choices!! That's what we all do. To her-- she is directly REACTING to it...in her mind this whole thing is about how she was treated...and therefore explains why her feelings changed...


There is no excuse for what she is doing and deep down it is causing conflict.


and therefore...what? She's "wrong"? Um, Okay...so now what? Let's "declare her wrong"...

but see, he still wants the marriage to work, so how is that statement helpful?


Personally, I wouldn't move out and I wouldn't allow her more than 50% of time with the kids out of the house.

He cannot control or "allow" her time with the kids OR what she does with them out of the house....the Court will determine custody... and how is this approach working for YOU?

Why you can't strive for that is a mystery to me as I saw my late brother singlehandedly raise 2 kids that way.

Just my 2cents. Just another opinion.

//NH

Please, before you criticize DBing AND go against the DB coach's advice, tell us what DID work for you that was so different...

[2thepoint]

Long post coming.......

Had a conv. with my W today that has me confused and troubled all at the same time. I went up to her room to let her know I was going to take her car in to have the brakes looked at and she looked really sad and despondent. I asked her what was the matter and she said that she was really having a hard time since I had told her at the beginning of the week that I'd be out by the end of the week but since the apartment won't be available till the 24th she feels like we are sitting in limbo with a heavy black cloud hanging over us.

I told her that I said I'd be out by the end of the week and I will be. She wanted to know where I'd be staying and I said not to worry about it. I'd have it figured out.

She seemed to settle down some.

We then got into a discussion about how/when we tell the children. She wants to tell them that we love them and wants what is best for them and that her and I can't live in the same house anymore and so we'll be splitting but that we will still function as a family and they will be able to see me as much as they want and that I am going to live in this great place and we can even go check it out if they want.....

She asked me what I thought and I told her that I want to tell them that we love them and each other but we are having a hard time in our relationship and need to take a time out from each other.

W's immediate response is that she does not want to leave this open ended and give them false hope.

My response was that I have accepted her decision, even though it is not what I want but that there is no sense in breaking the kids hearts until the time comes and that it would be better to ease them into this.

She expressed concern with how our S9 will react immediately to the news and is even more concerned with S13 who is much quieter and will internalize this and who knows....

We then moved to more logistical topics, such as how often I'd be able to see the kids, how to furnish and pay for a 2nd household, etc.

So this is where it gets confusing. W thinks that it would be perfectly fine if I see the kids every day. Pick them up from school, help with homework, soccer practices, school events, etc. All of this sounds great on the surface but the reality is, if I see them every day then W sees me every day. I ask her how this gives her the space she wants and she doesn't really know.

Don't get me wrong, if I can swing seeing the kids every day, that would be great! But I just don't get how she heals with me around every day.

I then move on to the more formal topic of visitation, child support, etc., (I probably should have not gone there but it has to be resolved). I told her of my concerns relating to how when 2 L's get into the mix, both advocating for their respective clients, things can get ugly very fast. Even if we want to have the friendliest D ever, we may still find ourselves at odds based upon the tactics that the L's choose to deploy. I don't think she has truly thought this stuff through. In fact I'm sure of it.

I told her that I was very concerned that my moving out could be construed as abandonment and she seemed genuinely shocked at this. She said she doesn't view it that way at all. I said that is one thing but the courts may view it differently.

She said she would be willing to put it in writing that this is a mutually agreed upon arrangement. I just told her these are some of my concerns and is part of the crap that is running through my head at the moment. She went on to say that a friend of hers who recently D'd simply filled out the paperwork and that was that! No custody hearings, nor child support talk, etc.

I changed the subject and asked her if she had spoken to her parents and she said yes, the other night. She said they reacted to the news with shock and sadness but that they were supportive. She went on to say that she couldn't get the words out about our sitch so she asked her sister to tell her parents and they called her to talk about it. She also said that her parents had no idea that this was coming considering we were then less than a month ago and they thought everything was peaches and cream.

We then moved onto the topic of my employment. This is a very big concern for me. I have a small real estate investing business that generates minimal sporadic income, (not enough to support myself and my kids). I told W that I have been applying for jobs all over town but the market is very tough and that I had already been turned down for even an interview for 4 jobs of which I was more than qualified for.

It is frustrating, you can have 15-20 years of relevant experience in a specific industry or discipline but if that experience has not been within the last 3 years, employers don't want to touch you with a ten foot pole!

So we talk about this and how for me as a man I need to feel like I am productive and contributing to the welfare of my family. W acknowledges this and says she is concerned for me specifically, (I assume this means my emotional well being). She said that her intention is to fully fund the support of the children from her income and that I would not have to worry about it. I told her that was unacceptable! I have to be able to support myself and my family. I will not abandon them financially, etc.

We move on....

I told her that if she was ok, I'd like to help get the house prepared for her parents visit on the 16th. I suggested she move back into the MB so I could get the guest bedroom prepared and she said that her plan was not to move into the MB that she will stay where she is and S13 could sleep on the couch and her parents could use his room.

She says it makes no sense to run AC/Heat in a part of the house when everyone could stay elsewhere (we have a 4200 sf house and it is quite expensive to maintain).

I think this is ridiculous but what can I do? Stop controlling I suppose?

W is very upset. I feel bad for her. Bad for me too, but bad for her (I Love her and can't stand to see her hurting so). I suggest that she seek support from others in her sitch. I told her about Divorce Care. She seemed interested. I told her they have programs in most churches in the area and that she could go to a different one than the one I go. She asked if this is where I went yesterday? I said yes (guess my GAL cover is blown!).

So that's it for now. Except, I went to leave to get the brakes checked but forgot something and went back into the house and I could hear my W sobbing again.

God this is tough!!

[25yearsmlc]

agreed...this is one confusing woman.

But 2t, how many times do we have to say SEE A L BEFORE you move?

your worries would be allayed, and knowledge is empowering.

Your fears of the legal costs may end up costing you a lot more by your guess work...don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

YOU have to see a L...not her. Don't kid yourself.

I swear the fears people have of legal costs, are nothing compared to the regret they have later on,

b/c while they "saved some bucks at the time", when things have to be revisited b/c they were unclear

or unresolved, or worse b/c they feel they got screwed...it adds up.

but think of the savings!

[LITB]

But 2t, how many times do we have to say SEE A L BEFORE you move?

I have to agree with 25 here. You have to prepare yourself from a legal standpoint too.

There is a law firm that specializes in D for men. They have a book regarding mistakes men make while facing divorce. The #1 mistake is moving out.

I have been reluctant to post this because it is not DB'ing. Sometimes protecting yourself legally and DB'ing is a fine line to walk. However, your children will always be your children no matter the outcome of your M/R.

Good luck.

[sandi2]

I say, be leery of a WAW who is too agreeable too quickly. In fact, yours seem to be going overboard! You can have the kids every day (as well as do all the parenting, apparently), and she'll even continue to financially support you? And, to top that.....she is so concerned about you. Really sounds sweet, doesn't it? Sounds like she's thought of everything....how to comfort her parents, how to make this sound like an exciting journey for the kids.....even sneaked in that little part about it being a mutual agreement for you to move out. Then, she puts the cherry on top and makes you think she'd actually consider going to some D class. No surprise here, b/c we've read the same stitch from other men.....many, many times.

A WAW, who is in an A, can become like your BFF overnight if she thinks she'll get her D quicker. Sure she's telling you everything that she thinks will tickle your ear! The only thing I saw she had a problem with was telling the kids it's a time-out. This seems to be commonplace with WAW's also. They want no S time, no MC, no easing the kids into it.....they want it chopped off at the neck and go straight to D court. Have you noticed that happening when reading other posts from men here on the board?

I know I may sound cynical and hurtful, and I'm sorry if you take it take that way, but please believe me, your W is not the first to tell her H these things just to get what she's after. Yes, the emotional roller coaster, sadness, crying, etc., is not uncommon either. She's a mess, but it doesn't make her stop the insanity!

Please.......get a lawyer's counsel, fast.

[25yearsmlc]

sandi

You know I love you, but I totally took a different view of her behavior.

I did NOT get that she was being "agreeable" at all...just selfish and nutty...
just my .02

but what IS apparently agreed upon 2t, is you need to see a L asap...what are you doing NOT even getting something in writing?

Don't do it until you see the L! (Please don't let your w draft one so you can save a few bucks..OMG...)

I say, be leery of a WAW who is too agreeable too quickly. In fact, yours seem to be going overboard! You can have the kids every day (as well as do all the parenting, apparently), and she'll even continue to financially support you?

she's nagging him about working and wants him to leave AND wants to dump the kids on him...not so sweet to me.

And, to top that.....she is so concerned about you.

Not concerned, curious...wants to KNOW it's happening...and that he's not getting a change of heart or clinging to her and his "hopes".

Really sounds sweet, doesn't it? Sounds like she's thought of everything....how to comfort her parents, how to make this sound like an exciting journey for the kids.....even sneaked in that little part about it being a mutual agreement for you to move out.

this also annoys me greatly 2t. Do NOT agree that it is mutual. You can calmly say "While I don't feel the same, I respect her wishes" and she cannot fault you for that...don't lie to the kids and say you two "amicably" agree to this...she's being a coward here AND the pretense of how amicable it all is, does NOTHING healthy for the kids.

ON one hand they are not allowed to hope for a reconciliation but OTOH they are going to be told it's all good and mutual and "now they'll have two Christmas trees"????. Hey She can't have it both ways imo.

The only thing I saw she had a problem with was telling the kids it's a time-out. This seems to be commonplace with WAW's also. They want no S time, no MC, no easing the kids into it.....they want it chopped off at the neck and go straight to D court. Have you noticed that happening when reading other posts from men here on the board?

I know I may sound cynical and hurtful, and I'm sorry if you take it take that way, but please believe me, your W is not the first to tell her H these things just to get what she's after. Yes, the emotional roller coaster, sadness, crying, etc., is not uncommon either. She's a mess, but it doesn't make her stop the insanity!

Please.......get a lawyer's counsel, fast.

see a L fast b/c you are moving out and that's not smart if there's nothing protecting you.

If she's so confident you can see the kids all the time AND come over I also wonder how she'll get the space she says she needs.

I DO NOT happen to think some OM will be over at the house anytime soon, but I've been wrong before.

She just sounds really screwy to me. More than anything else, of all the mixed emotions the one I am feeling from her the most is like she's ...lost her footing.

[sandi2]

I say, be leery of a WAW who is too agreeable too quickly. In fact, yours seem to be going overboard! You can have the kids every day (as well as do all the parenting, apparently), and she'll even continue to financially support you?

she's nagging him about working and wants him to leave AND wants to dump the kids on him...not so sweet to me.

And, to top that.....she is so concerned about you.

Not concerned, curious...wants to KNOW it's happening...and that he's not getting a change of heart or clinging to her and his "hopes".


Really sounds sweet, doesn't it? Sounds like she's thought of everything....how to comfort her parents, how to make this sound like an exciting journey for the kids.....even sneaked in that little part about it being a mutual agreement for you to move out.

this also annoys me greatly 2t. Do NOT agree that it is mutual. You can calmly say "While I don't feel the same, I respect her wishes" and she cannot fault you for that...don't lie to the kids and say you two "amicably" agree to this...she's being a coward here AND the pretense of how amicable it all is, does NOTHING healthy for the kids. ON one hand they are not allowed to hope for a reconciliation but OTOH they are going to be told it's all good and mutual and "now they'll have two Christmas trees"????. Hey She can't have it both ways imo.

The only thing I saw she had a problem with was telling the kids it's a time-out. This seems to be commonplace with WAW's also. They want no S time, no MC, no easing the kids into it.....they want it chopped off at the neck and go straight to D court. Have you noticed that happening when reading other posts from men here on the board?

I know I may sound cynical and hurtful, and I'm sorry if you take it take that way, but please believe me, your W is not the first to tell her H these things just to get what she's after. Yes, the emotional roller coaster, sadness, crying, etc., is not uncommon either. She's a mess, but it doesn't make her stop the insanity!

Please.......get a lawyer's counsel, fast.

Oh my gosh! I can see (now) how you saw my response, but no that's not what or how I meant it. I was saying it in a very sarcastic way, some may think I was being very tacky, IDK. Never even thought how it may be interpreted any other way.

Thanks for pointing it out. Hope 2pt realizes, maybe now, my original intent.

[bustorama]

W has a nutty world view right now, but it benefits you to understand and accept it.

We then got into a discussion about how/when we tell the children. She wants to tell them that we love them and wants what is best for them

And therefore we want to live in separate places and break up the family.

and that her and I can't live in the same house anymore

'can't'? Why not? Someone holding a gun to someone's head?

and so we'll be splitting but that we will still function as a family

That's right. I know many intact families in which the parents live in two different places and in which the W has an ongoing EA with an OM. That's how families function.

and they will be able to see me as much as they want

Really??? So when S wakes up in the middle of the night and says he misses Dad, she'll rush him over to you? Or when S says he wishes Dad was there at dinner with the 'family' or hanging out watching TV with everyone after dinner, she'd call you on over?

and that I am going to live in this great place and we can even go check it out if they want.....

Barf.

I told her that I want to tell them that we love them and each other but we are having a hard time in our relationship and need to take a time out from each other.

While her reality is not your view of things, the above reality is also not hers. For you to make progress (and to be honest with your kids and keep their trust), you need to REALLY accept that. She does not really love you right now. This is not a time out for her -- in her mind, she has broken up with you and is trying to find an easy way to move forward.

Yes, telling the kids is tricky. Tell them what you two can agree on -- factual statements without interpretation, explanation, or sugar coating.

Mom and Dad love you and will always love you. Starting in [a week or two], Mom and Dad will no longer be living together. This is the way things are going to be, and Mom and Dad will both continue to see you regularly, and be huge parts of your lives.

They may ask why? It could be, because Mom has decided this is best for her. Because Mom and Dad have decided to do this. Because this is what has been decided. What can you two agree on?

So this is where it gets confusing. W thinks that it would be perfectly fine if I see the kids every day. Pick them up from school, help with homework, soccer practices, school events, etc. All of this sounds great on the surface but the reality is, if I see them every day then W sees me every day. I ask her how this gives her the space she wants and she doesn't really know.

Yes, be a stellar dad, and absolutely be there for your boys. Of course, you will pick them up from school and take them to your home on YOUR days, where you will help them with homework. How does this involve seeing your W? Does she have a fantasy of this happening at her [the family] home? I don't see how that helps you move on with your life to spend all this time at her place instead of your own. It also could be confusing for the kids and give them a sense that Dad's home is not also one of their family homes. We don't want to give them a false sense of what is happening, right, W?

Of course you will attend their soccer practices and school events. W might even get to sit with you.

I then move on to the more formal topic of visitation, child support, etc., (I probably should have not gone there but it has to be resolved).

You absolutely NEED to go there. This is reality. The nitty gritty of your W's choices without a cushion of fantasy. The earlier the reality is met by both of you, the better. (and I agree strongly, you should meet it with a L).

I told her that I was very concerned that my moving out could be construed as abandonment...She said she doesn't view it that way at all. I said that is one thing but the courts may view it differently.

So may your boys, friends, extended family, the neighbors, etc. etc. This is part of why who moves out is significant. It is possible that your W HAS thought about some aspects of this, and it may be why she has not volunteered to leave.

She went on to say that a friend of hers who recently D'd simply filled out the paperwork and that was that! No custody hearings, nor child support talk, etc.

Understand that ^^^THIS^^^ is her fantasy IDEAL.

She said that her intention is to fully fund the support of the children from her income and that I would not have to worry about it. I told her that was unacceptable! I have to be able to support myself and my family. I will not abandon them financially, etc.

Why fight her by saying that something is 'unacceptable.'? Of course, you won't abandon them, and she's not telling you to abandon them. Don't fight her while asserting yourself or because of your own insecurities about financial issues. How about, 'W, that's great that you are in a good financial position to help fund their support. I will consult with my attorney/accountant/whatever on the best way that I can contribute to the support of our boys.'

I told her that if she was ok, I'd like to help get the house prepared for her parents visit on the 16th. I suggested she move back into the MB so I could get the guest bedroom prepared

You are still not accepting her decision/reality. Would you ask an ex-girlfriend or an ex-spouse to move into a master bedroom with you????

I think this is ridiculous but what can I do? Stop controlling I suppose?

Yes, stop controlling. They are her parents -- first rule of most things should be to at least find out what SHE wants. A good starting point, for example, would be, How can I help you set up the house for your parents' visit? (or Is there anything I can help with to prepare for your parents' visit?)

Except, I went to leave to get the brakes checked but forgot something and went back into the house and I could hear my W sobbing again.

God this is tough!!

Yes, it is. In the words of a wise man, you can handle it.