W is angrier after my 180's - time + consistency

[25yearsmlc]

fwiw

I mostly agree with Brooklynmom. First, many of us are only staring at the issue of him moving out, which DBing USUALLY advises against, but with some exceptions his DB coach is considering. IMO, the coach has a point.

We cannot look at this in a vacuum.

On one hand - yes his wife IS a bit out of control...OTOH, 2t owns a lot of their issues.

This marriage did not come into this crisis ALL b/c of his wife...and she's not insane to feel frustrated by how things have gone.
Of COURSE I wish she'd deal with it differently

but let's read his whole thread before just lumping her into the category of a selfish WAW...

2t, moving out may help you (though her manner of insisting is out of line and you need to be CLEAR with her about that...good grief, does her family know THAT??)

So, ANYHOW- your w sees you as THE issue and until you are out of her way and your own (b/c we know you pursue too much and you seek out praise or acknowledgement for the changes-she fears giving b/c it's "false hope"...)

Bottom line, it's NOT working well for the m to have you two together atm anyhow

but as your DB coach points out, for a long time now, this m was imbalanced the other way and she had to bite the bullet on everything.

Once you are not around SHE will have to find some balance on her own....

I'm very glad her family likes you and supports the family. At first, their pressure will produce NOTHING good for you

b/c she'll rebel against them and want so much to be "right"...after all, in HER EYES

she's been the victim so long that she cannot see herself as the wrongdoer now...and won't while you are around.

I really believe it's easier to DB when you have some space, at least it was for me.

Our mc told me to NOT tell the kids you are getting "divorced" Until the day you are about to file...iow you both are POSITIVE IT'S OVER...

until then, you can allow them hope for at least the transition period.
That does NO harm...

So That means saying "we're taking a time out", or "trying this out" and NOT saying for sure it's over. Why rush that? B/c she fears She will change her mind?

Assure her YOU won't Pressure her for a reconciliation and mean it...but that way she won't have a good reason for cementing the "divorce" decision and announcements. Make sense?

If the time line for divorce with kids is, say, 6 months...AND THE r goes straight to Divorce,

they don't need to know it's over til 5+ of those months have passed, so they can prepare while having some hope...they'll adjust to the idea that it "might not" work out...

and then when it's clear it really is over - (IF IT IS) -

THEN you tell them...no rush to crush

their hopes. This will leave them reeling as it is.

It's odd for her to insist that they be given no hope from the get go...eventually? Sure, they'll have to adjust to what is real.

But you both can say for now, that though you will always have loving feelings for each other - b/c the most wonderful thing in your lives has happened thanks to the marriage (ie THEM in your world)-- for now you need a break b/c you cannot seem to get along and you have been hurting each other too much

and not problem solving very well...

My DB coach told me that when the kids asked (and only if they asked) I could say "I hope we do NOT get a divorce, b/c I have loved your dad for a long time.."

and h was okay saying things like that b/c it made him look good too.

Of course you tell them together. That should be understood unless true abandonment has happened...which won't.

ALSO--our mc said another helpful thing...among many...

kids can have some questions now and you can answer them as well as you can without getting into an argument (or they won't ask and then they'll do guess work that is NOT healthy or accurate)

but you cannot avoid an argument if you insist on agreeing about what's going on.

WE know YOU don't want this...SHE knows you don't...but you are respecting her desire for space right now b/c you are not getting along (or however you choose to say this)

But the MC said, "don't forget that the kids will again have, or time will generate new

[25yearsmlc]

hate my computer for that non editing...

meant to finish with saying this-

Time will give your kids questions again. So you can ask them again, if they want to know something...let them ask. This won't be the only chance you have to talk to them.

my bet is your kids will not ask that much at first, but they will want to be reassured of what shall remain the same in their life.

That's huge...especially at their age.

Our d's both wanted to know if we were moving again. I knew I could remain in the house we were in then (still in btw)

until at least d22 (then 16) finished high school. So that meant the same home, same friends, same school and NONE OF THAT WOULD CHANGE....

and this comforted them greatly.

See if you can stress that part, plus how often you'll see them. They may want details about that, so think ahead of that. "Every Tuesday afternoon, and Saturdays..." or whatever...but only promise what you will deliver.

Sorry you are here, but I still see hope in your sitch.

Fundamentally your wife acts as if she has lost respect for you. But never assume that losing your temper or showing too much anger, or yelling or ignoring her or any of that crap - will somehow garner you her respect.

A man in control of his emotions is atrractive, not a man trying to control others. Be calm, and consistent with your changes. Say nothing of them.

OF COURSE she'll have 2nd thoughts about her choices if your changes remain consistent. How can she not?

But the minute you revert, is when she'll validate herself in victory saying "See? HE DID NOT CHANGE!"...

so stay strong and calm and be consistent with those changes, b/c you want them to be real for YOU and yours...

be the best man you can become, and leave the results up to God.

make sense?

[2thepoint]

Mr. Bond – I do think I am standing my ground as much as I can while at the same time giving her the space she feels she needs.

Regarding kicking me out of my home… Well that is how I looked at it at first. She has volunteered to leave but that would mean taking the kids with her which is a non-starter as far as I’m concerned. The kids need the comfort and stability of familiar surroundings. So, I’m the one who needs to leave --- especially if I ever hope to repair the damage to my marriage. I must change so she can change! She needs time and space so I will give it so her.


Sandi – It is funny that you perceive control on the part of my W, especially since it is my controlling behavior that is largely to blame for the crisis in my marriage. Perhaps in my effort to provide context, my phrasing is giving you a blurred picture of my sitch.

If my W is going to provide a one sided picture of the R to her family, there really isn’t much I can do about that. I’ve known these people for over 20 years, we are very close, (although they live back east, we visit several times a year, they come here, we go on vacations together, etc.) . I am sure they are going to look at this as a two way street as far as our marital problems are concerned.

I don’t think my W is as antagonistic as you may be perceiving. I’m not happy about any of this, that’s for sure. But I feel fairly certain that both of us are going to do our absolute best to maintain a civil and friendly relationship, regardless of the outcome of our M.

Maybe you should think about being the one to decide about the future of this R.

Utill you have her respect for you as a man (first), her husband (second), and the father of her children (third).....you won't have any happiness with her, and I feel sure that she won't even consider a future for the M.

Women have to feel respect for the man before she has those in-love feelings.

You may be correct here but you also have to remember that she feels like I haven’t respected her for a very long time with my selfish and controlling behavior. So, I have to earn her respect by giving her respect…and time…and space.


JS – all good points, but if I had to answer honestly, I’m really never going to be ready to move out and leave my family. But, I have made my plans and will accommodate my W’s wishes in order to give her the space she needs and hopefully rebuild our M.

As mentioned before, I have a great relationship with my in-laws. In fact I have said to them and my W that if it ever came to pass that they needed to live out their days with family members, I’d be happy for them to live with us. How many people do you know that would say that about their in-laws? So, I would not ask them to stay in a hotel. It is just out of the question. I care for and respect them too much to do that to them.


BM – thanks for your perspective. I think it makes the most sense for my particular sitch. And I appreciate the tips regarding the children.

You need to be very careful right now, your W is spinning and your Miranda warning is in full effect!!

Ain’t that the truth! Thanks for the reminder!


25 – As always, you seem to have a good handle on what my issues are in this R.

Bottom line, it's NOT working well for the m to have you two together atm anyhow

but as your DB coach points out, for a long time now, this m was imbalanced the other way and she had to bite the bullet on everything.

Once you are not around SHE will have to find some balance on her own....

I think this captures nicely what I am dealing with and what I need to do.

The advice regarding the kids is spot on and will likely provide the best opportunity for healing on their part not to mention between me and my W.

I like your advice regarding assuring my W that I will not pressure her for a R. I know it will be hard but I also know for it to work, she has to be the one to make the decision/commitment.

But you both can say for now, that though you will always have loving feelings for each other - b/c the most wonderful thing in your lives has happened thanks to the marriage (ie THEM in your world)-- for now you need a break b/c you cannot seem to get along and you have been hurting each other too much

I really like how you phrased that and I hope that that is the message that we ultimately convey to the children.

My W and I really haven’t discussed visitation and I’m not really sure how that will play out. I really don’t get the sense that she is going to want me completely out of the picture. In fact there are going to be ample opportunities to co-mingle as it were, due to our kids very active lives with sports and music. But your point is well taken – get a plan established and stick to it as much as possible.

As sad as this whole sitch makes me, I am as committed as ever to work it through, doing my 180’s, working earnestly on the control and respect issues and becoming the best man I can become. The results as you say are up to God.

Thanks everyone for your perspective. It gives me much to consider.

[25yearsmlc]

2t

something else I told my kids, which seemed to comfort them was

"If the only way I could have you guys in my life was to go thru ALL this crazy pain and work,.....I'd do it again in a heartbeat."

And I meant it. Even if I had divorced, they had made it all worth it.

Make sure your w knows that even though you are telling the kids it's a "time out", that's for THEM...

(even though it's also for you...

let HER believe you accept her decision and that you are resigned to her unfortunate choice.

And it IS unfortunate, b/c of who you are becoming...but she doesn't get that yet. She will, in time. Get time to be on your side...)

make sense?

[2thepoint]

Yep! Makes perfect sense!

Got a text from my W's sister today. She said she wished there was something she could do and she is sorry for my pain. That she is there to listen if I needed her. She said that she was praying for all of us. She then said to remember that "You are a good person" and "I love you".

How does one not choke up at this?

[BklynMom]

The text you got from your SIL is great. Not only is it nice to know she loves you and doesnt believe all the things your wife is saying. She thinks you are a normal messed up husband like everyone else. I think also it should make it easier for you not to slip up and say the obvious non DB stuff - "look at what you are doing to the kids?" etc. Sounds like your SIL is gonna say that stuff on her own.

[2thepoint]

Just got back from my Divorce Care meeting where today the topic of discussion was relationships after divorce. Here are a few statistics that came up. Working from memory here so not exact, but close...

76% of 2nd marriages fail
87% of 3rd marriages fail
95% of 4th marriages fail

Healing from divorce takes a very long time. The rough statistic is that it takes 1 year of healing for every 4 years of marriage. 2nd marriages that occur before sufficient healing has occurred almost always end in divorce.

We talked about healing being much more than getting over the hurt, anger, resentment, loneliness, etc. Specifically, forgiveness is critical for sufficient healing. If you can't forgive and be forgiven, you are doomed for more failure.

We also talked about how 2nd marriages are even more painful than first marriages when they fail. People who enter into 2nd marriages are fearful of additional failure and so they tend to stay in troubled marriages longer in the hopes things will get better which just makes the ultimate breakup even worse.

The topic of sex in relationships after a D occurs was discussed as well and they cautioned that relationships where there is sex is much more difficult to break away from if problems surface before or during the 2nd marriage.

So, just some good things for us all to consider as we journey forward.

[25yearsmlc]

The text you got from your SIL is great. Not only is it nice to know she loves you and doesnt believe all the things your wife is saying. She thinks you are a normal messed up husband like everyone else. I think also it should make it easier for you not to slip up and say the obvious non DB stuff - "look at what you are doing to the kids?" etc. Sounds like your SIL is gonna say that stuff on her own.

great points! YOU do NOT NEED to argue with your w to convince her of the decision being a bad one.

She's already hearing that...let her!

Don't YOU be the messenger of how "wrong" she is...others can carrry that message to her and you can be GAL and becoming the man she always needed/wanted you to become. THe man YOU want to become.

do you see why?

[sandi2]

Well, it sounds like you have made up your mind to move out. Okay. And I see your DB coach's POV (however, I am very surprised), and 25 gives great advise, as always.

But let me point out a few things here. Your kids are not that little. They are smart and they see other kids from broken homes. You can try to put them on hold by telling them it's temporary, before giving too much negative information, but if they think for one second the parents are not being straight with them .....that's not good, either. There's just no easy way, when it comes to protecting the kids from pain. I realize that is not your plan, just saying to be prepared for some type of fall-out. They may put up a good front, but they'll know their parents are S and may be heading for D.

The other thing is your in-laws. I have a close knit family. We treat our SIL like he's our own son. But, I have been through my D's broken M's over three times! Even if the parents love you, when all is said and done....they will be there for their child (right or wrong) above anyone else. You may still see them for a few minutes at holidays, but if the M is not R, your relationship with them will be different, if nothing else, based on the lack of time spent with them (not to mention feeling somewhat "strained" due to the stitch).....and just moving on with life. They may be nice/friendly, even lovingly toward you whenever they see you come by for the kids.....but I don't think you should expect to have the same relationship as you do now. I have seen a ton of divorce down through the years. The R with in-laws will fade. Even in the best of families, I've not seen any who continue the same R that was developed in the past as in-laws......and one reason is b/c of the fact there is usually another man who comes into the picture......and that may be something parents don't like, but it's what their D is doing and if she divorces you and allows OM into her life/family/home....you will be phased out of in-laws life. That's just the facts of life.

I think your love toward them is wonderful. Thinking of them and giving them the comfort of your home, above your own needs is admirable. That speaks volumes as to the amount of love/respect you have for them. Hopefully, they will understand your moving out, but I pray that they will know the truth and not some "stuff" your WAW tells them....softening them up for news of OM. (I've been on both sides of that situation!).

I'm not going to keep on with this. I think I'm seen as negative, instead of giving a realistic VP, and you don't want to hear that. I think you've made your decision, and I hope it goes like you think it will.

Good Luck.

((hugs))

[25yearsmlc]

not to quibble with sandi but to allay some fears...

in 98 one of my older brother "P" divorced his wonderful wife. She was crushed.

We (my siblings and mom) were shocked at his idiocy...I told him it was a "huge mistake" and so did the rest of us. He had gotten lucky marrying her and would never do better. OMG we laid into him but he did NOT listen to us.

Finally I said, "Look, I won't refuse contact or disown you but you have to know I think you were a lousy h to her AND I love sil, so I'm staying close to her"...which my brother has seemed relieved about. I guess he feels less guilty b/c we do have contact and she didn't lose all of us.

BUT i also think he feels awkward b/c he knows I think he was SO WRONG to have left her and yet, SHE is happy now...so I'm letting go of my own issues with him.

In retrospect, I think what he really wanted, imo, was an extremely low maintenance w. The w he had was in the normal range, and was actually very independent. But she wanted his involvement with things like... raising their only child...wacky...

She is an Andy McDowell look alike, I vowed that sil would always be "like a sister" to me. And to an extent we really have stayed in contact well. I see her almost yearly for a vacation ...I literally see her more than I see HIM...

not to punish him but[i] b/c she and I make the effort. We also keep in touch with FB and she has remarried, and I really like the guy.

I stayed with them last summer when I attended a wedding...&

she is happier now than she could have been WITH my brother...fwiw

But 2t, my point was you can salvage something with inlaws...it'll be different but it's not all bad. I enjoy my sil ("ex sil" technically)

more now

b/c my brother isn't around and he put a damper on things. So there you go.
[/i]