GALing and Boundaries with XH

[AntoniaB]

Here's the old thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189251&page=1

I reflected on XH tonight and how I should proceed. In the past day his email opened an "old wound", and when I called him on it, he apologized, said he didn't realize it would hurt me and told me why. I do think he has a legitimate point about why from HIS perspective he didn't think it was a big deal to me, but despite that, he still apologized and wasn't rude or anything. His email is towards the end of my last thread. I'm trying to do what AJM said and think about both sides here and miscommunications of the past and now with an eye towards rectifying them.

So, my reply to him said the following and I give my explanation behind each response:

1. I told him that I had chosen in the past to see my sisters a few times during that festival because I rarely saw them and didn't realize my absence from the festival was noticed. (I know in the past when I chose family over him that at times this hurt him. This was too codependent of him, yes. But right or wrong, HIS perception is that I left him alone at an event he thought we should be together as a couple. So I just used this opportunity to explain that it was never my intention to slight him).

2. I said even if I missed a few festivals, I had always seen them as a tradition of our marriage and our long-term friend group. (this gives him my perspective) and that when that group very easily accepted a "replacement" for me last year, I felt that they hurt me when I needed kindness and respect in a difficult time and that after that trip, not one of them ever spoke to me again, severing a 20 year friendship. (Sure he took OW on this trip, but only because they allowed it, so my issue was really with them more than him, so I'm not attacking him here).

3. I said mention of this trip opens a wound for me, but that based on his perception of the meaning of this trip, I could see why he thought there was nothing wrong in bringing it up. Then I thanked him for apologizing. (always praise what they do "right").

4. I ended by saying "next time you might try asking me about how the cats are doing or telling me about your tutoring experiences--subjects that don't open wounds." And I put a smiley face. (This is my attempt at a boundary, FWIW.

Do I intend to start contacting him at all? No. I'm comfortable not doing so. I am just fine if he never contacts me.

Would I be ok with it if he continued to reach out from time to time? Yes. But am I ok with him opening wounds? No. So my last sentence was the "olive branch", I guess, where I said "here's some things we can talk about if you want."

I don't want long conversations and lots of chitchat while he's with OW. But if he OCCASIONALLY wants to reach out, I'm ok with it if he can keep to this boundary.

I'm willing to accept that he didn't realize this topic would--so I explained why without getting angry or throwing blame his way. But I also think he needs to be aware in the future that some topics just really are off limits when you're dealing with an ex you betrayed.

So I hope that for now I navigated this ok. I feel good about it, and I feel clear, so now I can get back to my GALing :-)

[cat04]

Antonia,

I went back and read your other thread because to me, this whole interaction from your side seemed rather, IDK what the right word is...

If I was on the receiving end of your response, I would take it as defensive and controlling to a great degree.

Your boundary, was not stated in a way that said boundary but more like telling him what to do (about the cats and what to talk about).

It seems as if (from what you wrote on both threads) that you hold a lot of resentment toward the former friends and maybe to your XH as well.

It also seems as if your explanations were defensive of your behavior (missing festivals) but not accepting of his.

I am sorry that his email opened a wound. Those wounds may be caused in part or in whole by his actions, but they aren't his responsibility to heal or avoid.

That falls squarely on you. It is up to you to heal yourself. To get to a place where that wound isn't opened anymore.

I am from New England. Some people love the place they are in and some people belong where they are, are fed by it, thrive in the environment. I thrive in New England. There is just something about the area, the land, the air, the water, the smells, the food...

My mother took me from there when I was almost 17. To Florida. Someplace completly opposite. And not a place that suits me well. When I went back to visit, it always opened that wound, and when I would return, my frustrations with my mother and where I was, would grow. To the point that I stopped going to visit because it was simply too painful. It grew the hate and anger within me. No matter how many times she apologized, it didn't make it better. SHE couldn't make it better for me, I had to do that for myself.

Over time, I healed those wounds, or so I thought. I returned about 12 years ago, and that scab came off, but not as bad. I worked some more on it, I didn't want to never be able to go home again, and I didn't want to always hold anger towards my mother about it.

It took me another almost 12 years to be ready to go back again. I was scared before now. I went back earlier this month. I loved every minute of it. I felt like I had never left. The only negative feeling that I had this time, was regret that I had let so much time pass. That I had let that anger keep me from someplace that I absolutly love. That my son hasn't been able to know this part of his mother because I couldn't face it...

He will now...

I came back to Florida, and I was able to talk to my mother about it. Without any meanness, blaming or anger... Without hating where I live... Without sorrow and pain...

How does this tie into your story...

Simply in the fact that WE have to heal ourselves. Whether someone else apologizes, feels differently from us, agrees or disagrees with how we feel...

It is up to us to make a choice. We can hold onto the wounds and wait for that scab to be ripped off (and it almost always will), or honestly and truly heal it, so that those wounds become scars and don't do anything but serve as a reminder to all that we have faced and have grown from and through. A reminder of our accomplishments....

Everything that happens in our lives is something that we can learn from and grow through, if we allow it to be so...

[AntoniaB]

Cat, thanks for reading and the story about your background and the wound you healed.

I agree that the wound needs to be healed by me.

I guess I saw my reply to him as less "defensive" and more "explanatory" of how the way I saw it was different from him. That didn't mean I said his view was wrong, just different.

I saw two ways to establish a "boundary" for communicating with him. One way was this: "We can chat about small talk as long as you don't bring up OW or the friends we used to have in common."

Or..

"Maybe next time you can ask me how the cats are or tell me about your tutoring experiences because those are safe topics ;-)"

Like, I went with number two which I saw as more gentle? That was my rationale.

I guess what I'm not getting about what you're saying is if I don't tell him what's ok and what's not, then how am I supposed to create a boundary? In the past I've seen people create a boundary by saying, "You and I can talk if OW isn't in your life." Ok, if I say that, we're not going to speak at all.

[~ kd ~]

Boundaries are best stated and set by asking or showing rather than telling:

+ It hurts when you talk about...
+ I'm not comfortable with (this) subject...

And alternately, by simply not responding to stuff that you are uncomfortable with or that hurt...

Eventually, they stop talking about it... But you are not TELLING (controlling their part of the conversation) them...

They actually end up choosing to stop talking about that stuff...

[cat04]

I agree with Kaffe about the boundaries.

The most effective ones for me, have been ones that I haven't tried to 'speak'.

When I decided I would no longer listen to the spew, every time it started, I walked into the other room. At first, he followed, then he stopped, then eventually, the spew stopped.

[AntoniaB]

Ok, I got it now. Subtle difference, but a difference. Actually I think I may start applying this to my father and tell my siblings and mom that it may work. We've talked a lot in the past week about what to do about him because since my mom has been back from her trip, he's been awful to her (predictably). I'll add this next part if anyone feels like giving me advice on how to use "DB" with my alcoholic dad--but ignore if you just want to read MLC stuff :-)

I have a sister that he forcibly bought a computer for (laptop) for her kids because he wanted them to play an online game against him and I guess she didn't want the kids tying up the family computer with it. She told him "No, I don't want them to have their own laptop yet. Wait till they are older." He bought it anyway. Made her take it home. Then said "you need to get a router." That was 2 months ago. She didn't go get the router yet. I think she just doesn't want them online a bunch of hours.

Mom returns from her trip; Dad screams at her "did you know she still didn't buy that router after I bought her that 700 dollar computer. She's ungrateful." Mom says "I can't make her go get the router." Dad says, "Why don't you go back to Germany; that's where you belong."

Why do I know this? Mom tells us EVERYTHING he says to her. Always has. That's one missing boundary. Another is dad parenting my sister's kids.

So how do we all deal with "DBing" this guy? He's a piece of work, isn't he? How do you teach boundaries to your parents who are 67 and 76?

[~ kd ~]

I've been working over the past two weeks with my Dad DBing my alcoholic mother. Things came to a head a couple weeks ago when my mom started in on me and I engaged her in convo. This is ongoing, but rarely do I engage her. I was already in a bad emotional state and she became my target.

Short story is, my Dad involved himself in the convo and it got... really ugly...

After the dust settled and I took some time to clear my head (and I was actually DBing her during the altercation), I considered what worked... and what didn't... and how similar that was to DBing a M...

So over the past two weeks I have been coaching my Dad and... my mom is now on ADs... we'll see what happens... but it's a positive, baby step...

It really is the same in many ways... don't engage the spew... don't enable... don't react... be strong and stand up for your rights... GAL, 180, etc...

They say you can't teach old dogs new tricks... well, there's plenty of people on these boards who are 65+... my parents are 66 and 67... they are... learning...

It might take a little longer and the older we are, the more tools we have in our pocket for knowing how to engage someone who does not want to engage... how to push our buttons... My mom's is the use of deflection, projection, martyrdom, and vulgarities... it's quite a dance, but when I'm strong enough to do it, I take her attacks head on and encourage her to let it out... I have learned not to take it personally, because I pretend it's the alcohol talking... or a scared, little child...

It's hard... emotionally draining... and the child in me comes to the fore and I want to run away and hide under the bed...

I wish you and your family well with your sitch...

[AntoniaB]

This is definitely helpful, Kaffe, and I actually talked to my sister tonight and read her your post because we've been trying to figure out a subtle way we can start to shift things a little. Interesting thing tonight as far as the whole parental codependency issue...

She and I were on the phone and the call dropped. I called her back and I misdialed and called my parents. It rang twice and I realized I misdialed, hung up, and called her. My phone was charging in another room.

Immediately my home line rang but it went to voicemail and I said to my sister, must be mom. Well I'm sure she knows I misdialed as I hung up right away. Then my cell which is charging goes. Then 5 min. pass. My home phone. Then my cell phone. She's left 4 voicemails at this point. Half hour passes. Same thing again.

(You're going why didn't you pick up--I was too far from the cell to reach that as it was in the back of my house, and I don't know how to use the call waiting feature on my phone.)

By the time I got off the phone with my sister, mom had left me 7 messages between email and 2 phone lines that got progressively more and more frantic. ANTONIA!!!! CALL IMMEDIATELY!!! WHAT ON EARTH IS GOING ON????

I called and she was distraught. Completely distraught. My dad TOLD her look, she misdialed. It's easy to do with these phones (cause he GAVE me my phone).

Honestly? I think that my mom thought that because I was severely depressed last year and talking of suicide, which was CAUSED by the depression and 2 weeks straight of NO SLEEP and a reaction to meds, that I am now branded forever as a "high risk." It doesn't matter that I've held a very public job where I stand in front of people every day and never missed despite the depression, it doesn't matter that I am highly accomplished and have lived alone now for over a year in a state where I have no family locally, nothing I've done to rebuild myself matters. I misdial a phone, and she JUMPS to assuming that because I made the MISTAKE of falling apart when my husband left me that I am now suicidal forever.

When I reached her, she said that she had assumed she was going to have to drive to my home tonight to "take care of me" or "help me" because she thought "something awful happened to me".

Honestly, I feel like my issues with XH are so much less now than the issues with my helicopter parents.

[~ kd ~]

Yeah, wow... co-D...

Personally, I think your mom might be more "work" than your dad... but that's not funny and likely not true...

My dad has been sober now, we think it's about 5 years... he still has anger outbursts... he keeps it in too long and it's very focused... let me be clear here, though...

both my mom and my dad, as well as myself... have a LOT of personal development under our belts... they know this stuff, but it's always a choice, and tough, to do the work...

That being said, the tools learned in the PD can be turned and used as weapons, so it doesn't necessarily make it any easier... I'm just saying... I have a number of triggers that I now I can use (when I remember them)...

I ONLY do the work in times of stress and duress when I know I am strong enough... this is not an intervention. I'm not saying interventions don't work, but understand... like DBing a spouse... you can lead a horse to water, but...

I've found that it's hard to work with the both of them at the same time, when they're escalated, but I can usually divert my dad... he knows and trusts my abilities...

I struggle with depression as well, but never diagnosed nor treated... I have found tools and skills within myself to deal... not sure it's a good idea, but the skills have served me well in some cases as I believe they've allowed me to be more empathetic and sensitive to the approach and onset of crisis... in myself and in others...

Your sister is on board with you? Is there just the two of you, or more siblings? I have a sister and she's done the psych schooling as part of her profession, although she's not a therapist... she's "onboard", but she's pretty much given up and left it to god... fair enough... but when it comes to it and she's brought into the drama, she knows how to act... and I know her game, so I can trust her to work with me, albeit passively...

I think your sister is doing the right thing not jumping on the bandwagon with the laptop and now the router... but...

I have to say... Understand that it could get ugly... your dad will play your mom and then your sister could be the target of both of them...

You'll have to diffuse your mom's... I'd suspect "unwarranted"... concern over you... aside from co-D and probably an enabler, she sounds a bit smothering and... would I be wrong in saying... overbearing...?

[cat04]

Antonia,

Read the book Co-Dependent No More if you haven't yet.

It is excellent.

I too deal with alcoholism within my family. You can feed it or you can let it alone.

Many years ago, my mom complained about how miserable she was with my stepfather's drinking, and my dad's drinking before that. I finally told her if she wasn't going to do something to change her life, that I didn't want to hear about it anymore.

You can DB an alcoholic, but it definately is more for your benefit than theirs. Like our MLCer's, they have to want to get help, want to change, before it will happen. The bottom line is how you allow it to affect you and how you react to it.

My stepfather likes to drink. I don't like to be around it. So, I leave when he is like that. If I call and he answers and is drunk, I get off the phone as quickly as possible. It really is simple, not easy, but simple.

Your sister, is doing the right thing IMO. She is making her decisions based on what SHE wants for her children. Whether your father likes it or not, that is her choice. Just like it is your mom's choice to listen to him rant about it.

As for the phone calls, the nervousness within your mother, try to have a talk with her. You can't control her worrying but you can reassure her that you are fine now.

I know it's a lot to deal with, but when our M fall apart, if we choose to do the work, all of our interpersonal relationships end up benefiting from it.