I hope the thought of divorcing, and of living separately, and of being a part-time parent... I hope thinking about those things is as ruinous to my wife as it is to me. Especially the thought of not seeing the kids every day... Perhaps that's the wrong way to be thinking, but the prospect of those things really messes me up, and I hope that's how it makes her feel too.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
Although it's mind reading, I'm sure your thoughts about what might be rattling around in her head regarding the "where" are somewhat valid.
If she's been telling people that the M is going south and moving to D, it would be hard for her to explain to people that she's unsure at this time. Especially if she's said a lot of harsh things... but that's moot...
In the mean time, you two are still going out. And her words indicate confusion and uncertainty (about you, not necessarily about D)
I would remind you to watch this. Look for changes that she's moving towards, rather than not moving or moving away...
Just keep that on your peripheral vision. Don't do the LBS mistake of temp checking and "watching"...
Understand that you are setting up what might become a tradition for you and your W. Regardless of what happens in the M. If she starts moving away, how will it look if you suddenly STOP the evening out tradition. She'd see it as you being manipulative.
All I'm saying is, you are setting yourself up to be her friend, no matter what happens (which is OK, if you can handle it) so that might be something you have to be prepared for.
So what ELSE can you do to keep showing her that you are a great catch? Without it being pressure to her?
I guess the friendship does come first...we've certainly never been lacking in that department, ironically. She still says I'm her best friend, and I certainly feel the same way. When we're together the conversation is still free and easy, and we talk about anything and everything under the sun. And it's been suggested to me by my FIL that if anything might carry us through this and help the marriage survive it will be that friendship... he finds it as baffling as I do that two people can still appear to be so close and yet be going through what we're going through...
Still, if I've noticed any change, it would seem to be suggestive of her moving away rather than toward. The night we went out, there ended up being a lot of hand-holding and touching and just being close to each other, but it seems like the rest of the time there has been a concerted effort on her part to decrease the sort of easy, natural physical closeness that we were continuing to have... It's like, she'll catch herself being close to me, particularly when we're in bed, and she'll realize she's holding on to me or leaning her head on my shoulder or something and then quickly move away. I don't say anything when it happens, just make a mental note of it...
As far as what else I can do... I think maintaining the 180's and GAL, being calm, cool, and confidant even when she brings up "what's happening"--basically, her seeing that I'm strong enough and self-assured enough to come off like no matter what happens, I'm going to not just survive but thrive, and perhaps most importantly, being open to the types of things and experiences that she tried to convince herself weren't important to her because of my reluctance to take part in them.
She has a birthday at the beginning of next month, and I told her that despite everything, I was still planning on doing something for her to celebrate, and that my idea was to have some of our friends over to the house on a Saturday night and then on Sunday take her to a show she's really been wanting to see. I could see the look of shock and utter disbelief on her face when I suggested the party, because that's something I've always tried to discourage...I'm a real "my home is my retreat from the world" kind of person and she's a real "my home should be open to everyone" type, and to avoid what she thought would be some type of conflict she's always deferred to me. So for me to open up in that way I could tell was a real surprise for her. But I've realized, this is her home too, and she has a right to feel like there's some give on my part when it comes to stuff like that. God...a huge part of our problem is that I always figured if she felt strongly about something, even if I was opposed to it, she would just tell me...because it seems like that's how she is with everyone except me. With everyone else she comes off as very strong-willed and outspoken, but for some reason with me she was always stuffing her true feelings...not saying what she really thought...like she felt that's what she was supposed to do to keep the peace in a relationship. And as a result, we never fought or argued or anything in 8 years of marriage. And here I am thinking at the time that it was because I was lucky enough to marry someone that agreed with me on just about everything...
Our conversation got cut off by the kids before she could really answer as to whether or not my birthday plans were something she'd be into, so I guess a sign that things might be moving in the right direction will be 1) she brings it up again herself before I have to in order to have enough time to plan everything, and 2) that she says "Yes".
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
Man...sometimes the loneliness gets unreal. I'm staying strong on the outside, but on the inside...sometimes I'm just dying. Maintaining a platonic relationship with the woman you love is HARD. It's like being on a diet...or starving to death...and having a full Thanksgiving dinner laid out in front of you 24-7.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
Just reading through your post on the 6th, you mentioned about how you think your W might be moving away...
depending on where she's at, just a thought...
There's going to be a bit of an elastic band effect as she might be struggling with her not wanting to be with you and her attraction to you (either habit or otherwise)...
In the past couple of days, I've been given the opportunity to employ a very important 180... that is, allowing her to criticize me or say something that could potentially hurt my feelings without me reacting by either "punishing" her by withdrawing from her and going silent, or by getting clingy and looking for reassurance from her.
As far as new/different 180's... I'm starting to wonder if it's time to back off completely. Maybe move more toward the LRT, which it seems a little bit like I had been advised against because of how well my wife and I still get along.
She came home from dinner at her parents last night and told me her mom and sister had given her a bit of the third-degree for potentially leading me on. They notice us hanging out and doing things together, and just generally having a good time...living in a way that would make outside observers surprised to find out what's going on between us, and they are worried that my wife was giving me the impression that it meant everything was going to be ok and work out between us. Apparently that got my wife worried about it to, and she wanted to know if that was the impression I was under--that things were going to work out between us, because where she is now she says she's been doing all of those things with me because she still loves my company and enjoys being with me, but she still wants a divorce. Although, she said, when she actually thinks about setting that process in motion and the consequences of it and what it will mean for the kids, it makes her sick to her stomach.
I told her that I'm doing the things I'm doing, making the changes I'm making, regardless of what happens between the two of us. Saving our marriage? Things working out? She knows that is something I haven't given up hope on. I don't say it anymore, but I said it enough in the beginning that she knows. The changes, I told her, are about ME...being the person that I want to be...being the person that, in fact, I used to be. It isn't even so much about changing...it's about returning to who I used to be. The upshot being, I said, that no matter what happens between us, this is the person I'm going to be now, and the fact that as a result we're still getting along and doing things and enjoying each other's company is the gravy on top.
She picked the conversation back up this morning, and essentially said that she had made a decision a few weeks ago that she just couldn't risk putting herself out there, couldn't risk putting her heart out on the line again, and so it was less about what she feels toward me than it is about not wanting to take the risk that the changes she sees in me won't be permanent. She said it's like there's a battle between what's in her heart and what's in her head. She said she alternates between believing the changes are real and thinking they're just temporary. And, even when she believes they're real she said she finds herself getting angry...resentful that saying "I want a divorce" is what it took to make the changes happen. I told her I completely understood her feelings, and in fact gave her credit for even being willing to entertain the idea that, at only a month and a half into my "transformation", the changes might be permanent. I said that I completely understood her mixed feelings, and that if I was in her shoes I wouldn't even begin to trust the permanence of the changes until I had seen them consistently for months and months and months.
The conversation touched on a bunch of other topics...her feeling like she had lost her identity and how to reclaim it (both of our individual counselors advocate the idea of solving this within the marriage, not outside of it); her feeling like she was on a path of growth and personal discovery that might not happen within the marriage; and her posing the hypothetical of us continuing on the way we have for an extended period...that is, with us living like best friends, but continuing on without sex and declarations of loving each other. She wanted to know how I would feel about that. My view on that, which I shared with her for better or worse, was that it took years for us to find ourselves where we are, and my assumption is that it would take months upon months to work ourselves away from it to someplace better.
My final contribution to the discussion was to tell her that she was her own person, who had her own experience in our marriage, that she had the right to forge her own identity, and that I had to honor her thoughts and feelings and opinions about what had happened between us, and about what should happen next. I told her that no matter what, she had to decide for herself and own her own decisions, and that the changes she was seeing in me were the result of me doing the same thing, and that I'm going to continue on the path she sees me on no matter what happens between us and no matter what she ultimately decides.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
*sigh*... the good intentioned, but meddling family and friends...
Why should it really matter if you two are being friends? That's between the two of you. Your W might THINK she's clear on leaving, but so what if she starts to like you and moves towards you...
Anyhow, no matter... it happens... if not them, probably, eventually someone else...
Understand that LRT is FOR YOU... to help you detach... also understand that LRT does not have to be forever... but can also lead to forever... in that nothing changes and you finally choose to move on...
OK, further on your W has told you EXACTLY what she's thinking... which is... she's THINKING about you...
before you do anything drastic... consider that... you don't have to go all LRT on her, maybe... just keep the changes going and be a man only a fool would leave...
Thanks as always for the perspective, Kaffe. Good stuff. Much appreciated.
It's definitely not just her sister and mom, she has so many friends buzzing in her ears about what she should/should not be doing...
I've been successful in not bringing up the relationship or the divorce, but whenever she brings it up and indicates that she's still holding to her decision, it definitely gives me a sense of...panic (internal and well-hidden) that I'm not following the right course of action. I've been good about not letting on how that makes me feel, and just letting her know that her decisions are her decisions to make.
You're right though...at this point, whether she leaves me tomorrow or next month or next year, she won't be leaving the same person that she initially wanted to divorce; she'll be leaving a changed (permanently) man. And I think to change course now would be a mistake...she's even indicated that she's entertained the idea of reconciling some time in the future when she's had a chance to see that I've solidified and stuck to my changes/growth/transformation, so I guess a big part of what's at play is her not trusting that the changes are long-term. So, there's the motivation to keep the changes going, as if the benefits to me and my mental health weren't enough (the changes I've made have certainly made me feel happier and stronger than I've felt in a long time, despite going through the worst episode in my life). And she's suggested that she's curious to find out what happens the first time I backslide (because she says, I'm only human and she knows it will happen at some point)...wanting to know if I'll quickly recover and keep up the good work or if I'll just slip back into my old ways for good. Obviously I don't want us to actually have to split up for her to find out what she needs to find out...but that's out of my hands (to a certain extent). All I can do is keep on the path I'm on and be a man only a fool would leave.
If I'm not there yet, I can say with confidence I'm well on my way...
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
if she's not moving away (actually doing the WAS equivalent of LRT)... then no harm, no foul to keeping a steady ship with minor course corrections...
I like the ship analogy, a lot. I think she's battling herself. I think when she told me she wanted a divorce, she was sure that nothing was ever going to change and that I, in fact, was incapable of changing. I think it's thrown her for a loop in a major way that my response was to look within myself, accept my part of the blame, and begin to change.
She asked me the other day if "hypothetically" (she was very careful to emphasize "hypothetically") I would be willing/able to continue for an extended period living as we have been recently; that is, getting along, doing things together, enjoying each other's company, but not having sex and not saying "I love you" to each other. It's funny, she seems to think going without sex is the hardest part about all of this for me. I told her that as much as I do miss the sex, it's the least of the things that I miss right now. I also told her that I wouldn't want us to live this way forever, or indefinitely, but that for right now I thought we're doing pretty well...well enough to continue on the course we're on. She started crying and said that in all of this the thing she was having the hardest time with was the thought of not living with her best friend anymore, and that it crushed her to think about the dissolution of our friendship. I thought about reassuring her that I'll always be there for her and her friend...but I've told her that plenty of times before, and I actually think it might be good for her to have to weigh the potential consequences of her decision.
I think the elastic band is in full effect and I am expecting a lot of vacillation on her part. She's called me twice today at work (for the first time in weeks upon weeks) to discuss little things that certainly could have waited until I was home...and that really didn't need to be discussed with me at all in the first place.
We have a movie together scheduled for tonight; dinner reservations for the end of the month (I gave her an easy out but she thinks it will be a lot of fun so she wants to go); potential birthday plans for the beginning of next month (I'm waiting to let her bring them up again since I already put the suggestion out there); and a wedding that I offered to accompany her to (a MAJOR 180 for me as I've ducked out of every wedding invitation we've received over the past 8 years and I now know that's been a big source of discontent for her, even though she would at the time always say something like "It's ok if you don't want to go...").
Above and beyond that, I'm just to continue on as I have been with the 180s and GAL. She's given indication that it's still way to early (only about a month and a half) to have changed her feelings much, but that if I keep up the good work it might. So, steady as she goes... I'll prepare for and accept the worst should it come to that, but continue to hope for the best...
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
