Nice, sounds like a great plan. And mixing it up as once a month your plans, once a month her choice... great idea...
On the "date night", how do you plan on letting her know? Certainly you don't plan on springing it on her.
How would you phrase the "ask"... because it ties a little into the second part... of knowing what you want and asking for it...
because "date night" is not just for your W, it's for you, too... it is certainly something that you want, because you want to do something nice for your W but you also enjoy it...
So again... how are you planning on asking? The words...
I certainly get that you do not want to ask for anything at this time. I'd guess you don't even know what you want at this point... which is why asking is the second part of the equation, first part being figuring out what you want...
Also on that point, I would have been pretty happy with the status quo of my M. I was... mostly... happy... at least, I thought I was... I certainly DO KNOW some of the things that I want on the remote chance that we ever get to that point. But since I'm assuming we're not even gonna get there, I don't bother deciding what I want...
Here's the thing... are you wondering if you'll even get that far? To the point where you might need to know what you want and ask for it? Because... if things with your W don't work out (knock on wood)... you'd need to know what you might want if you get into a new relationship...
Which leads to the last part of your post... that your W was the giver...
And here's the thing on that...
Sure... she gave... she knew she gave... you knew she gave... and I'm sure you appreciated what she gave... and gave... and gave... until she got done with giving...
And... did she give the things you wanted and asked for? Because she was likely giving the usual things in a marriage... the things that most people expect in a marriage... but if she was really giving you want you wanted... do you think you would have maybe paid her a little more attention...? and reciprocated with giving her the things SHE wanted...?
Because... that's how it works...
If we give something they really, really want... they DO appreciate it... and there's a strong, human tendency to want to give back something just as meaningful to the giver, in return...
Your "darkness" might very well have been that the things she gave were truly not meaningful to you in a way that was profound enough for you to reciprocate...
On the "date night", how do you plan on letting her know? Certainly you don't plan on springing it on her.
How would you phrase the "ask"... because it ties a little into the second part... of knowing what you want and asking for it...
because "date night" is not just for your W, it's for you, too... it is certainly something that you want, because you want to do something nice for your W but you also enjoy it...
So again... how are you planning on asking? The words...
I thought I would do something like J3B suggested--letting her know a couple of weeks ahead of time that I made the reservations, where, and when, and tell her that I would really like/enjoy her company. I figured this allows her to decline if she is feeling pressured/pursued and gives her time to decide, while also implying (correctly) that if she decides not to go, I intend to go anyway and will just go with a friend instead.
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Did she give the things you wanted and asked for? Because she was likely giving the usual things in a marriage... the things that most people expect in a marriage... but if she was really giving you want you wanted... do you think you would have maybe paid her a little more attention...? and reciprocated with giving her the things SHE wanted...?
Because... that's how it works...
If we give something they really, really want... they DO appreciate it... and there's a strong, human tendency to want to give back something just as meaningful to the giver, in return...
Your "darkness" might very well have been that the things she gave were truly not meaningful to you in a way that was profound enough for you to reciprocate...
Possible...?
Definitely possible... but I think what sums up our dynamic more is that she did give me what I wanted/needed, but because she was so...I don't know...ambiguous...equivocal...about what she really wanted/needed, what I ended up giving back to her, the way I showed her I loved her, was to return what she was giving to me. That is, I was loving her in the same way that I like to be loved.
You know, the whole concept of love languages was something totally foreign to me until just recently, but it very nicely sums up a big part of what went on in our marriage. It had never occurred to me that the way I like love to be shown to me (physical touch, words of affirmation) might not be the way my wife needed love to be shown to her (quality time). So I was inclined to give back to her as much as I could, because of how much she gave to me... But I gave in a way that came naturally to me. I gave her what I wanted/needed, not realizing that as much as I gave, it wasn't what she was wanting/needing. And because of my wife's issues, the thing that she contributed to this, she didn't feel comfortable/worthy of telling me that she needed something other than what I was giving. I think she felt like she should just be happy with what she got...that to ask directly for something different would mean she didn't appreciate what she already was getting.
And I think where she is in the marriage right now is that it's all been too much work, she's tired of the effort, she doesn't believe that any changes in me or our marriage can be permanent, and perhaps most unfortunately she's made a decision that she's not willing to take the risk. That's what gets to me the most...knowing that she has really intentionally walled off her heart and has made a cold hard rational decision about this.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
On the "date night" reservations... if you are planning on taking a friend if the W does not go... make sure that none of the ones you plan are too... romantic... lol...
And seriously, while I don't think the corporate, fast food chains are good for a date night, I would also recommend against a five star restaurant with secluded, darkened seating even if your W DOES go... not looking for romance here... more like... companionship / friendship...
Thank you for noticing about your giving... and she was likely doing the same... the only difference in YOUR mind is that YOU appreciated what she gave and YOU FEEL she did not appreciate what you gave...
We CAN NOT mind read... but...
we can certainly make decent guesses by being more aware...
My W always told me that "had you been paying attention, you would have noticed that I was not happy"...
While that's a canned, WAS comment, there's a certain truth to it... If I knew more about her, studied her, understood her LL and so on... I might have been more responsive to a noticed change...
Yet, on the other hand... that would not be necessary, maybe... Maybe all I needed to do was pay more attention to GIVING to my W in a way that was meaningful to her...
Being at work is hard. It seems so much easier to be upbeat and maintain the PMA when I'm at home, but something about being in the office...it's hard to keep my mind focused on work.
It's only been a little over a month, but feels like it's been ages. I'm really missing the things that used to help get me through the day--leaving in the morning with a hug/kiss and "I love you," the texts during the day from my wife saying she was thinking about/missing me, the knowledge that I would be coming home to open arms... That's been one of the hardest things about all of this; having to quit that stuff cold-turkey. One day I was getting all of those things (and so much more), and the next day it was all gone... It's amazing how badly I miss kissing my wife.
I paid good lip-service to not letting the success of our "date" get my hopes up, but I guess when it comes down to it...I was hoping to see more signs that the tide was turning. I need to make sure I get a grip on that...keep reminding myself of my father-in-law's 12 month timeline...and the fact that it took years to get my wife and I to where we are, so it's going to take months to (hopefully) get us somewhere better.
On the bright side, she came home from her counseling session yesterday, and shared with me what they talked about (very rare for her to ever divulge the content of her counseling sessions). Rather than focusing on what's going on with us, they apparently discussed her unrealistic expecations of herself regarding the housework and being "super-mom", which led to a conversation between my wife and I about how I could help her with some of that...Not that I don't already do my fair share of the cooking, cleaning, and parenting, but my wife told me (and I validated/acknowledged) that she felt like she couldn't ask me to do specific things around the house because I had given her the impression that my feelings were that I already did enough to help out in addition to taking care of all the yard work, car maintenance, and the other traditonally "husband-oriented" chores. I told her I never wanted her to feel like she couldn't ask for more/different things than I was already doing, but that I could see how my behavior would make her think that.
Ultimately, I told her, she always has the right to say to me, "Dearme, I appreciate and love you for doing A, B, and C, but I need more help around the house with X, Y, and Z." I said that any time there's something she wants or needs, all she has to do is let me know clearly and directly, and I'll do whatever I can to make it happen. So all in all it was a good talk. The rest of our interaction was good, if somewhat platonic...she ended up making me lunch and later I got an unsolicited hug from her; so I'll take what I can get. Still, what I want more than anything is for her to tell me that, while everything is far from "fixed", she's changed her mind about moving out and divorcing and is ready to commit to building a better relationship. That's what I'm doing on my own right now, building a better relationship, but it will feel so much better if we can get to a place where we're doing that together.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
First, hope and expect are two different things... hope is allowed, but expectations often let us down... because we cannot control an outcome... no matter how hard we work towards it...
On your W's "super-mom" complex... that's her stuff... I'm not sure that offering to help will remove her self doubt about being a great mom... in reality, it might have the opposite affect because no, she needs help and therefore cannot live up to the image she wants of herself as being a great "mom"...
Only she knows what that looks like, to her...
It is possible that the lost connection between the two of you has nothing to do with you doing your "fair share" around the house... but rather with your connection with each other...
It is possible that the lost connection between the two of you has nothing to do with you doing your "fair share" around the house... but rather with your connection with each other...
I think you're right; that is, I don't think the lost connection is the result of me not doing enough... I think it's the result, in part, of her feeling like she couldn't ask me to do any more than I was already doing...or, perhaps even more to the point, that she couldn't ask me to do something other than what I was already doing. And in being honest with myself, I had to admit to her that I could understand why she would feel that way, because I often reacted negatively when asked to go above and beyond what I was already contributing...not that I reacted meanly or with hostility...but I always had to point out how busy I was with all the other stuff I had to take care of. So at some point she stopped asking...and that led to much resentment on her part.
So I thought it would be important to tell her that I understood we both did tons of stuff around the house, but that I've learned no matter how much each of us does there's always something else that needs to get done and we should always feel like we can ask the other for help...that I realized we're partners in this, and if I have to let, for example, changing the oil in the cars slide for another day or two because she needs me to clean the downstairs bathroom and family room while she does the upstairs bathroom and bedrooms, then so be it.
Somewhere along the line, without meaning to at all, I contributed to making my wife feel like she couldn't ask for and/or tell me things. I know some of that has to do with her own issues of co-dependency and inadequacy, but I also know that some of it (and perhaps most of it) has to do with me. That's where a lot of my really important 180's have been focused. And I know she's seeing them...but at least for now I get the sense she's still firmly entrenched in "too little too late" land.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
They get their connection because they are both doing things that "need" to be done AND they are doing them together...
TEAM = CONNECTION
But then again... my W has very particular ways of doing things and my way isn't good enough, even when she instructs me on a way to make the bed for example, I do it to the best of my abilities to the specifications that I understand she's asked and it's... not good enough...
So... we really have to understand... is what's being asked have anything to do with re-engaging the connection... and we can't mind read... so we need clarity...
If I'm not making the bed in the right way... maybe I'm asking the wrong question...
So... we really have to understand... is what's being asked have anything to do with re-engaging the connection... and we can't mind read... so we need clarity...
Good point(s)... In my wife's case, I think it's less about what is being asked (although that is certainly important) than it is about feeling free to ask the question in the first place. I'm only just now learning the extent to which my wife believed certain things...maybe even most things...weren't up for discussion or debate in our relationship. Even though it's not the way I feel, I gave her the impression that certain things had been decided and that's just how they were going to be, and so she had to decide to accept things as they were or move on. She no longer saw the point in making particular requests or voicing certain opinions. What I didn't know until recently is that my wife will do just about anything to avoid conflict, no matter how big or how small. So what I saw as her agreeing with me, was quite often her denying her true feelings about something so as to avoid conflict.
Now, I don't believe I share all of the blame for that impression of hers...but I know now what I did to contribute to it, and I own enough of the blame that it's something I can work on even when she's at the point where she's decided she's done and wants out. That's one of my 180s... really listening to her, respecting her requests and opinions and, even when I don't agree, making it clear that I'm hearing her, understanding her, and acknowledging that what she has to say is valid.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
Extended an invitation this morning for a 2nd "date" with my wife ("Hey, I made reservations and lined up a sitter for Saturday-after-next and would love it if you came with me.") She accepted...contingent upon whether or not she'll be scheduled to work that night. I asked her to let me know as soon as she found out, reiterating that I would really enjoy it if she came with me, but that I would go with someone else if she isn't able to.
There's really no way to tell what she's feeling... I'm hoping I'm seeing signs that there's still some love there, but for all I know they're more indicative of her desire to try to remain friends...or at the very least on good terms.
Kind of strange, she came home from her standing "girl's night out" that she has every Thursday with her best girlfriend, and for the first time in recent memory she remarked about how boring it was and that she found herself thinking "I'd rather be at home in bed right now." This morning in bed, she told me she'd had bad dreams about me. "About me?" I asked, and when she replied "Yeah" I asked her "What kind of bad dreams?" "You with other women" was her response. I didn't know what to say, so instead doing what I usually do and trying to think of something, I didn't say anything. When she says that type of stuff to me, it really makes me think/feel like "WTF?!" It just seems a little weird, given that she's the one who wants to divorce. A little bit later when we were making breakfast for the kids, she mentioned that she couldn't quite shake "those dreams", and then, although not in a serious manner, called me a jerk for my behavior in them. This time, without really any consideration, I told gently told her that she was still my one and only, a sentiment that's true enough and one that she thanked me for.
Today at my therapist's, I noted that I think I'm finally settling in to the reality that this process is about saving myself...saving (hopefully) my marriage will be the gravy on top...the most desirable of all the possible outcomes. But doing 180's, "getting a life", "divorce busting." I'm seeing that this is about saving me...about making sure I can not only survive but thrive during and after the divorce if that's where we end up heading. I'm in this weird place of being thankful in a way...I certainly would never chose to have it come at the price of my marriage and family, but from this crisis I've been given an opportunity to "wake up" and not just change and grow and "fix" some things about myself, but to also...in a weird kind of way...return to who I used to be a long time ago. Someone who actually lived life and enjoyed it, and who people liked to be around and found attractive. It's like...returning to a lighter side of myself, and of life. I find myself wondering if the demise of my marriage...losing my wife, becoming a part-time parent...would be worth it. It's a question I can't quite answer yet...certainly I wouldn't return to the life I was living though, any more than my wife would. I see why she wanted out of that life. I want out of it too, and that's what's driving my efforts right now. She may end up walking anyway, no matter what I do... but if she does, I'll at least have taken advantage of the wake-up call I've been given.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
Wife remarked this morning about how bummed out she's been lately. When I asked her if she cared to elaborate, she said it was basically because of "what's going on with us," and because she's been thinking about "what's going to happen to the kids, and to us..."
I guess it's good that thinking about that stuff bums her out. I told her I definitely understand and can relate, and we pretty much left it at that.
Funny, we talked about our dinner plans again today, and she had thought I made the reservations for the same place we went last time. When I told her I had actually made them for a different place, a small plates lounge that she actually goes to quite often with her girlfriends after work, she got a little bit quiet. I had chosen the lounge because there was a time when she told me how good it was and how much she thought I would like it, and because I figured I would pick some place different from the last time but that I also knew she liked... but from her silence I got the sense that there was some reluctance on her part to go to a place where she's basically a regular, and where I'm quite sure she was thinking about how many people we would run into that know our situation and would find it odd to see us out together. That actually happened the last time we went out...we ran into two of her coworkers (two girls in their early 20's who I've been made aware have been encouraging my wife's discontent), and they were visibility flummoxed to see us out together. And the last time I went out by myself, I had two different people that I haven't seen in years come up and ask me about the state of my marriage, so my wife has obviously been sharing our circumstances with whoever cares to listen.
Part of me was inclined to keep the reservations and tell my wife that I intended to still go... but I decided to go with the fact that no matter what I think is rolling around in her head, I don't know for sure what my wife is thinking, and I'll go with what she said whether it's the truth or not--that she "just really enjoyed the experience we had the last time" and would prefer to do that again rather than go to the lounge. So, the reservations have been changed...
Our conversation got cut off by the kids coming out to the kitchen where we were talking, but she had been saying that as much as she enjoyed the invitations and the plans I was making, she found it all weird... both because she's not used to it, and because she didn't expect it from a man who has been told by his wife that she wants a divorce. She had said a couple weeks earlier that she keeps waiting for me to get angry and mean, instead of being this new person that she's seeing.
I didn't get a chance to respond, but I would have told her that I understand why it would be weird to her...to finally get what she's been wanting all along, but that this is the result of the awakening I've had...that I know now what it is to be a man, and a good husband, and to give to the people you love the things that you know make them happy, and that this is the person I intend to be regardless of what ultimately happens to/between us.
H: 41 W: 35 M: 9 years T: 10 years S: 9 D: 7 ILYBINILWY & "I want a divorce": 6/22/2011 Piecing: 10/2011 Still going strong as of 4/2013
