I read your first post, and it did not seem at all incoherent. Unfortunately, it was very painful for me to read. The behaviors sounded a lot like my own over the years. Believe me, I understand what H means when he says he feels like an idiot looking back over his behavior. We could be co-writers of that book.
I will tell you the similarities, and share with you what was going on with me. It might be the same underlying thoughts...try them on, and see if they "fit" what you see in H.
Although I have not tried to get out of our marriage at any time (the loss of my M is one of my greatest fears), I was involved in that kind of behavior with countless girlfriends before - including my wife, almost to the night before I proposed. I would confess love for them, talk about marriage, then flip-flop and say I couldn't marry. I constantly questioned if marriage was the right thing for me, if this was the right person, if I would regret the decision which, once made, would be irreversible (hey, even if you are OK with D, it doesn't make everything the same as it was). Honestly, I was terrified of being wrong. I was afraid that if marriage were wrong for me, or if this were the wrong person, I would be missing out on what my life "should" be, our marriage would be doomed to misery, and everything would be wrong. I don't know if I believed that the "right" decision was supposed to always be blissful, or if that decision was supposed to come and whack me over the head with a 2x4 and say, "Hey, I'm the right decision." I'm not actually sure what I believed, but I wanted absolute assurance that there wasn't a better decision for me. It wasn't until years later that I learned (the hard way - the only way, it seems sometimes, that I learn anything) that the only way to make a "right" decision is to MAKE a decision and stick with it, no matter what comes! Commitment and perseverance are absolutely necessary to make any decision right - and if you decide to love, I believe they can make almost ANY decision right.
I also have been known to have a terrible temper. When W misunderstands me and I can't get her to understand what I really intended, when she is angry and I can't immediately smooth over the situation, when W is hurt and sees me in a negative light - I get panicky. I look for the solution, an answer that is going to fix everything, and when nothing works, I feel hopeless. Then I feel angry - how can she be so unreasonable, to present me with a situation I have no hope of fixing (even though I am the only one who expects me to "fix" everything). Even with small disagreements, it always looks to me like our relationship is falling apart. I feel threatened. I lash out, expressing how hopeless our relationship feels. The difference with me is that D is not an option for me, so I get angry, feeling that there is no way out of the problem. If I were OK with D, I can easily see how I would have just seen a fight as the end of the road, and decided that the only way was "out."
I am very afraid of conflict. I imagine that sounds funny from someone who just told you he has a terrible temper, but it is true. I will often conceal my own hurts, preferences, needs, out of fear that conflict will ensue - because to me, conflict feels like impending abandonment. But, of course, keeping myself hidden, not "rocking the boat" really doesn't make our relationship any good, and when this stagnant relationship comes to the fore, I react. My feelings shout out, "I've been demanding nothing of you! I don't cause any problems! I completely stifle myself to prevent marital problems! What more do you want?" And then, you guessed it, my temper comes back into play. Kinda ironic for someone who is acting in fear of conflict. And getting all hotheaded at W is pretty ironic for someone who is afraid of being abandoned by her. So, fear of conflict leads me to withdraw, which leads to more conflict, which leads to more withdrawal, etc.
The one area where I have been perhaps too demanding is sexually. I am REALLY eager to please W in bed, because this is an area that I hope can be pleasurable for both of us. It makes me feel loved and accepted in a very profound way, and I want it to be as rewarding for her. Unfortunately, in light of my withdrawal as described above, it leaves W feeling like sex is all I want from her. Actually, it is the only thing I am not afraid of.
(Of course, I am working on all these issues in IC)
I am afraid this is not working as well as I had hoped. Your description of your husband's behavior really resonated with me, and I thought he might have some of the same issues as I do. But I am afraid I have not worded what I feel too effectively. I hope, perhaps it can lend some insight.
As for the list, my vote is that you should definitely make it out - it would provide some reassurance that you are taking H seriously, and reinforcement for his efforts at growing himself. And i agree with Kaffe (very smart guy) to word it in such a way as to avoid giving him the impression that they are accusations. "I" statements are a good start, but if he is anything like me, he may still need some reassurances that he is loved and accepted, and that the list includes things intended to help you become closer (again, if he is anything like me, telling him you want to be closer to him will strike home).
So, maybe I am just projecting my own feelings on him, but I hope, at any rate, my thoughts help somewhat.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Psych77, your thoughts definitely did help and you worded them perfectly. I read your post many times and I can definitely see some of my H in many of the behaviours you shared.
For instance, based on what my H has told me and knowing what I do about his past, I do know that he struggles with anger, but at the same time avoids conflict until he explodes. This is when he usually says horrible things or threatens to leave. Even when he doesn't do that, I always get the feeling that he cannot be wrong, or that he's in it to win it so to speak. Other times, he simply stops talking to me for days, sometimes weeks. Admittedly over the years I resorted to this tactic as well. It used to scare me when he would give me the silent treatment (my mother did this to me as a child) but eventually it began to make me very angry and so I would ignore him when he ignored me. I knew it was wrong but it became a self-protection mechanism for me. I felt less out of control and abused when I ignored him for ignoring me. Not sure that makes sense though.
Also, the commitment issue is something that came up while we were in MC many years ago. We saw more than one C and both said my H needed to recognize that having one foot out the door (by constantly threatening to leave) was damaging the trust in our relationship. One even asked him if he could name other areas of his life where he had fully committed to something... Aside from his job, he couldn't. I do think my H suffers from the grass is always greener mind set. Although, he hasn't actually left to find out if it is greener but I do think that until he does (or by some miracle recognizes this about himself), that this will probably just continue to happen.
Your thoughts on sex also resonated with me. My H is very eager to please me and he has said that ML makes him feel closer to me. He has shared that it has hurt him deeply that I have been uninterested in sex with him for many years now, but honestly I don't feel safe with him and this has affected my desire. At times I even wondered if he was using me because I never felt respected in our relationship. Of course, he always denied this and acted like I was crazy to feel this way. However, during his last bombing, he admitted he didn't like or respect me so it seems like those feelings were not my imagination. Although, I'm sure he will take back those words eventually but I'll still be left wondering...
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to share your experiences. You deserve a lot of credit for recognizing these behaviours and for being willing to work on them in IC. I recall reading some of your sitch but will catch up the recent posts soon.
Kaffe, thanks for your thoughts as well. I do feel like I'm dealing with standard WAS behaviour. A whole lot of talk and very little positive action.
Just a little journaling...
The other day, H grabbed me while I was in the kitchen and started crying on my shoulder. He said he feels so bad for how angry he has been with me and that seeing so many happy families at the campground the other weekend made him sad. He was affectionate and loving for the rest of the day.
Then of course, he spent the entire evening with S7 and then went to bed early...
The following day, he saw that I had ordered a book that came in the mail and asked about the title via text. I ignored his text because the book was on abandonment and healing. (I read about on the forum and bought it the day of the last bomb). Later, he brought it up again so I told him the title. He asked if I ordered the book because I wanted a divorce or if it was because I didn't trust him.
I replied, "I don't trust you," and then walked away. As I was walking away he said, "That's fair."
The next day, he tells me he's going to the bookstore and he comes home with a marriage saving book. (I admit I snooped.) Well, it didn't take much effort as he left the bag open on the kitchen counter.
Today, he sent me a text asking if we can talk after the kids are in bed and discuss the relationship books we've bought. Then he texts if I can also bring my book on contemplating divorce. Nice. I've ignored these texts because I'm stumped and don't wish to get back on the rollercoaster.
Actually, forget the rollercoaster, I feel like I'm on the Crazy Train.
Double edged sword... the WAS has a tendency to look for answers out side of them which validate the feelings they're having inside for leaving... a form of justification...
OTOH, he could be struggling hard to work on himself and eventually the M...
Again, like a lot of things... your H may simply forget...
At best, let you could mention that the books are generally where you leave them and he has permission to look through them, but you'd appreciate if he didn't remove them from their spot.
Kaffe, yes, I agree. But it's too soon to tell if he's truly interested in piecing and I'm past the point of believing just his words. I've also been trying to decide if I should have this "talk" with H tonight or simply offer him the books.
Anyway, H just walked in but when I can, I'm going to catch up the latest in your sitch. Although, I've read more than one of your threads in the last few months and I have noticed a huge change in you. You should be proud.
H asked to come with me and the kids on a outing I planned yesterday. I'm doing my best to GAL and have been planning more outings for myself and the kids. Anyway, later in the evening, instead of going to bed early, H spent the evening watching a movie with me and even asked for me to join him on the couch. After, as I was getting ready bed, he sought me out for a hug (I've been sleeping in the guest bedroom). This morning he comes over and starts caressing my leg and then starts stroking my hair.
30 minutes later, he texts me and asks to talk upstairs. Then tells me he doesn't want to hurt me or the kids but he can't do this anymore. He still feels emotionally disconnected. Here we go again. Then more R talk. He says he will never make me happy. Then admits it will hurt him to see me with someone else. Then says I don't like and respect him anyway. Then talks about how sad he is that he's disappointed me and how he wishes he could go back and do things differently. What does he want from me?
I know he's not committed but I also know he's not truly done. It's like he expects all our problems with go away if he tries hugging me and spending a little time with me here and there. Or reads a few books. Then decides in a matter of days, that didn't work so I guess we're just not right for each other. Why buy a relationship book and then two days later, decide that didn't work in two days so I'm done. It's like he's desperate for some quick fix.
Do I tell him to just go? Move out if he must because he's so miserable here apparently. He can't sleep, he's anxious but then when it comes time to leave, he can't seem to actually follow through with that either.
Maybe he wants my permission. I don't see this working if all he thinks about is leaving anyway...
I've been GAL'ing, avoiding R talks except when he drags me into them. Although, I do manage to put them off for days until he insists we talk. Also, I've been feeling distant myself so it's been easy to give him lots of space. Definitely no pursuing on my part.
I've let him initiate physical contact and it seems like he seeks it out. Although, it also seems like he's trying to make sure I'm still connected to him because when he feels me detaching, it's like he feels the need to bomb me all over again. Either that or I'm reading this incorrectly.
I'm seriously conflicted. Our D16 will fall apart if he moves out. She's already depressed and dealing with serious self-esteem issues. But if I wait, it could happen in the middle of the school year. At least if he moves out now, she has time to process this all before school starts in September.
He seems determined to either leave or drag this out until it results in him leaving or me asking him to leave anyway. I guess I can't wrap my head around making this such a long drawn out process because I would never sit my spouse down and ask for a divorce, if days later I wasn't sure. And to do it 3 times within less than 4 months just seems emotionally immature and quite frankly, a little nuts.
Girl, my heart breaks for you. I know how emotionally and physically exhausting what you are going through is. I've lived it a long time, too. If you're like me, your friends and family ask you why you continue to put up with it, why you haven't just kicked H to the curb for good. But, if you are also like me, you hold out hope...for your marriage, for your husband to change, for happily ever after for your family. I know. I understand. That's why I've stayed.
I think what you do from here depends on how "done" you are. If you have the strength and patience to keep going, then stay the course. Take a step back, give him the space he needs, keep DB'ing. If you KNOW you can't take "the crazy train" anymore, than ask him to leave...do the LRT. However, MAKE CERTAIN that is what you want before you ask for it. There have been times that I drove my H away because I got frustrated, lost my cool and "kicked him out." The next day I would regret it, but in his mind, he was already making plans for his escape. So, if you don't know what you want, DO NOTHING for now. Back off...cool off...let him cool off.
I'm at the point where I have to establish and enforce some boundaries. My H has filed 3 times over the last 18 months. Two times, he has non-suited, but right now our D is still pending. In the last few weeks, we have asked our lawyers to put things on hold so we can consider reconciling (again), but at any point, we could move forward (and quickly) with it. I will say this, if/when the D is final, I'm DONE. So this is crunch time for my relationship.
Is it crunch time for you? Are you willing to continue DB'ing for now? Only you know, Endeavour. I know you worry about your daughter, and I will pray for her. Being 16 is hard enough without problems within the family. Just know that the Lord will take care of all of you, no matter what comes your way. Keep your faith in Him, and try to keep your heart and mind open to what He wants to do in your life.
I'll be thinking of you. Know that you aren't alone. Take care of you, lc4
Later tonight, H wants to discuss some questions I had answered in a book I bought on contemplating divorce. There were questionnaires you could fill out to help you organize your thoughts and feelings concerning the relationship. He found this book while snooping (it was well hidden) during the time I was considering leaving (last year).
I don't get why he wants to discuss my feelings concerning him or our relationship if he's walking away?
He has asked to talk a few times this week but I've kept myself busy, or have gone out to avoid these R talks. He texted me a few days ago to meet so we could talk about some relationship books but I ignored it because I was trying to give him lots of space and not pursue.
Then he texted again to talk about these books and asked me to bring the one on divorce two days ago. I ignored that text too.
A friend said he might have mistook me avoiding these talks as me not wanting to work on things and decided nothing was going to change. He did say earlier that he could tell I've been walking on eggshells and seemed uncomfortable around him. Definitely true.
So I guess that's my 180? To stop avoiding the talks? It's not like he spews hate at me. He usually spends a lot of time telling me he feels hopeless and sad.
I'm trying my best to DB but am still struggling with what to do in this situation and could use some advice from the long time posters...
I've ignored these texts because I'm stumped and don't wish to get back on the rollercoaster.
