The Roller Coaster Keeps on Rolling

[Truegritter]

Hey man good to hear from you.

I figured you were procesing all this stuff.

I am sorry to hear where it sits right now but you know what?

It is a process. And it doesn't happen when or how we would like usually.

But I simply don't see how she and I can get to the point of true reconcillation until OM is out of the picture for good.

Absolutely the truth.

Now comes the part for your courage.

Go back and read the posts to you a few pages back. There is some good stuff there for you to think about and how to apply it to your situation.

I still believe your W is playing the victim role here. She is confused

When will you be confident enough in your changes and what you want in your life and how to live it?

Because that is the only way you can show her who you are and she will either see it or she won't.

She won't if you are sacrificing yourself at all costs to bring her back into the M.

It will only reinforce her stance that you are 100% responsible for this and she can do what she wants.

Do you think that kind of thinking is going to work in your M?

My advice?

Let her be like she said she wants.

Let her live without Denver pulling her back into the M.

Let her take some steps on her own.

[ninelives]

I think Starsky was spot on with his advice. There are many on these posts that have grown to admire you Denver and the way you have fought for your marriage.

There is a fine line between being a doormatt and being compasionate for what she is going through.

I was and still have anger for what she did, but I am also understanding that my wife is not well and has made some very poor decisions.

If what you say is true about you being a bit of a jerk throughout the marriage ( and I cant believe that is as bad as you say), a few months of change may not be enough to convince her or make up for years of neglect.

Patience, Patience Patience.

Just keep your head on straight, be aware of all possibilities and dont Kiss her A$$. She will not respect that.

All the best Denver. YOU KNOW we are all pulling for you.

9

[Starsky309]

When will you be confident enough in your changes and what you want in your life and how to live it?

Because that is the only way you can show her who you are and she will either see it or she won't.

She won't if you are sacrificing yourself at all costs to bring her back into the M.

It will only reinforce her stance that you are 100% responsible for this and she can do what she wants.

Do you think that kind of thinking is going to work in your M?

My advice?

Let her be like she said she wants.

Let her live without Denver pulling her back into the M.

Let her take some steps on her own.

100% agree.


Starsky

[♪CS♪]

Hey Denver, great to hear from you.

Sorry to hear things have backtracked a bit, but don’t lose track of how far you have come.

Things are beginning to take a serious emotional toll on me.

Totally understandable. That is why I think it is important to slow down. Give yourself a break to regroup. Whatever works best for you. A weekend away maybe.

I also suggest re-reading the book, and like suggested above maybe time for a DB coaching session. Whatever it takes you get you stronger and prepared for the reality of how tough this is going to be.

TG’s advice is great. You can’t do this alone. And trying to will only continue to wear you out.

All of life is a journey; which paths we take, what we look back on, and what we look forward to is up to us. We determine our destination, what kind of road we will take to get there, and how happy we are when we get there

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Ahhh no, not exactly.

Having him over for dinner and being upfront about it, sort of flys in the face of what she had previously told you.

"Cake eating" I actually despise the term. It is an individual definition with individual parameters. Much like "door mat". These are personal definitions. You define them for yourself, what you are capable of handling, tolerating, suckking up. Much like family and friends advising you. What you would tolerate I might not, what Country might tolerate you might not.

As for the dinner because of a dying father. Let me be the blunt asss in the room. What's next, when the man dies? After that, his dog ran away? He lost his job?

In the future.

IN the FUTURE.

In her life if you are her husband, he is not her friend.
If he is her friend, then you aren't married.

I do not know any marriage concilor that says or thinks having the OP anywhere near the couple live's is helpful or good for the recovering marriage.

That is your boundary.

In the here and now?

It might not be in your best interest to establish THAT bounary, right now.

She doesn't trust you; yet. You're not at the point of being able to walk away without an angry stone heart. You'd be doing it to push her to a choice you want her to make rather than from the point that you truly are good with either choice. Do it too soon and you'll be dissapointed in her and angry.

A boundary once establish means your force them to make a choice AND you have to live with decision. It's an ultimatium.

Starsky is correct in that many of them 'dumb down' the information they give you. Not being completely honest. From my own experience as a WAH I certainly did, as an LBS she certainly did it to me. 'Lies of ommission' are still lies.

Everyone is saying, even me, "You or him" That's the truth.

However, I am asking you to determine the correct TIME of that statement and stance.

I see what you are doing as f-ing up her game plan. Screwing with her preconcieved notions of who and what Denver really is.

You're a work in progress Denver.

You'll admit; I hope, that you are addressing issues that you didn't like in yourself. Bettering yourself. I know you didn't come here for that, you came here to save your marriage. You improving yourself gives you that best chance.

This time, this HELL you find yourself in. This is the fire you refine yourself in. And she is watching. This time, and your actions, word, deeds and attitude during this time, will confirm or errode her fear and conceptions about you.


There will come a time, when you will say, "Him or me." Although I believe Grit had a much better way of saying it once. I'll keep it simple.

"Him or me." That stance that is adamant. No dickering. And from a place where you are capable of fullfilling your part of the ulitimatium. Where you mean it, where you'd like her in your life, but don't need her. After you have shown her what you are truely capable of. When you have shown her absolutley that you are not a trick, and that boundary is not a trick.

Has enough time passed yet Denver? Should she believe you?

I am not saying compete with f-nuts. I am saying use this time to destroy the guy you are REALLY competeing with: The Old Denver she left.

[Starsky309]

A boundary once establish means your force them to make a choice AND you have to live with decision. It's an ultimatium.

DISAGREE. A boundary, properly articulated, is very different than an "ultimatum." An ultimatum is "You must give up OM, or I'm done." A boundary is "I will not live in an open marriage."

An ultimatum is about THEM; a boundary is about US, and what we will (or won't) abide.

At first, they seem the same, but really, you're saying basically this:

Her: "So you're saying I must make a choice, him or you?"

You: "I'm not saying anything other than what I'm looking for in my marriage. It's completely up to you what you decide to do; I just felt it only fair to let you know I'm not willing to live in an open marriage."

Her: "So you're making me choose -- that's so unfair! I wasn't ready for you to make all of these changes, so fast! I was done with you!"

You: "I understand that, and again, I'm not telling you what you should do. I'm letting you know, as my wife, that what YOU decide to do, will affect what I decide to do, and that each of our decisions have consequences. I'm being completely honest with you; I have no desire to be anyone's 'Plan B'. I value myself way too much for that."

There's a difference.

Let me put it another way. Instead of "Mrs. Denver," you replace it with "My Wife." As in:

"I'm just letting you know, that my wife will not be living in an open marriage with me; I value myself way too much for that. Whether or not that wife is you, is completely up to you. You're an adult, and I don't control you nor do I have any desire to."

Starsky

[NEmoose43]

Jack, I just printed your response out and put copies in my office, my planner, and one to have in my notebook at home.

Sorry to hijack here Denver, but this speaks so clearly to where I'm at too. EVERYTHING I've done up to now has done nothing but make OM more attractive. This week is going to be the hardest I've had so far, but I need to back off and let her deal with whatever the F is going on in her head. I am certain that there's more that she's dealing with than just him or me because she's outlined a lot of it.

Denver, we both need to concentrate on the things we can control. Both of our W's have seen that we're making changes, it's time to take that next step as Jack is suggesting. Our happiness cannot and should not depend on our WAS, it has to come from the new selves that we refine in this fire (Jack, don't know where that line came from, but it is AMAZING). I am so inspired right now. Hope you are too.

[dbmod]

I pretty much agree with Jack.

A boundary IS an ultimatum.What comes at the other side of crossing that line as a consequence makes it an ultimatum. No matter how the words are disguised.

On the board there is so much talking about what our spouses do that we often forget to talk about what we did that got us here and what we may or may not still be doing.

Your wife did not intend to ever come back. And like Jack said, you screwed with it. It appears she still does not intend to come back, although she is entertaining the idea from time to time. She is also entertaining the idea of not coming back and deciding who she is going to deepen a relationship with, if anyone.

You are most likely NOT in a position to set ultimatums/boundaries and I think you know it. The other guy is NOT your biggest problem. And you know that too. A love that is compelling enough for her to come home to is your goal. Whatever speaks love to her most.

You may feel you are being crucified for your past, but you are not. Your relationship dynamics drove her away. You are not still paying for it, you have done a great job of drawing her back in all over again, you just haven't drawn her 'ALL IN'. The good news is, the OM hasn't yet either.



Draw her 'ALL IN'. If anyone can, you can.

[Denver_2010]

Thanks FOBD. I know that we've lost touch with each other a little here on the boards. I am still very much caught up on your sitch and wish you nothing but the best. I know that you will find happiness again soon. Hang in there man.

BITS
Denver

[Denver_2010]

I assume from your name that you are somewhere near Denver. Why not book some time with Michelle Weiner-Davis? I've heard that she is absolutely fabulous.

Looked into that, but can't really afford to do that. She's like $5k per day. Even if W thought that she was in a place to continue with MC right now, I doubt that she'd let me/us spend that much on it.

Your wife is waiting for Cupid to hit her with an arrow, or for the stars to align, or some other outside force to grab her and tell her what she wants in life.

Absolutely she is. She's even told me that she's keeps expecting some sort of sign that tells her what the right thing is for her to do.

She needs to spend some time in a positive structured way to look inward and see what she wants. Love doesn't come from the outside. It is a decision. Waiting around for a decision to happen to you is not the way it works.

I agree with you 100%. Don't think that W is seeing it that way right now. She needs to spend time processing her feelings... structured or unstructured. She is one of the busiest people that I have ever known. And over the past 3 months, she has spent all of her free time with me. So, as she has explained to me, she needs to give herself time to process her feelings. She hasn't said this, but I think that she is looking to the end of her school year, i.e. her summer months off from teaching, to do this. Or at least that is what she is hoping she can do.

Her statement that things will 'sort themselves out' has me perplexed though. I just don't view life that way... as if, like you said, some magical bullet just hits us with the correct answer to our questions.

Of course, I recommend Retrouvaille. But I know your wife works weekends and won't give up a weekend for something else.

I know that you do Lotus. She agreed to do it in March, but we couldn't find a weekend where one or the other of us didn't have to work. We were going to look at the schedule again and find something in the late summer or early fall. But we don't appear to be on that track now.

Thanks Lotus.