Journal Ok so there was a negativity rebound of sorts today. She said she had a lot of things to get done today, and she did. As I got out of work she told me she was going to run some errands near my job, whenever she does and I'm free I usually join her. So I asked if she wanted to do the same, to which she replied at first to go ahead and go home, but then quickly changed her mind and said to go ahead and join her. Well I could tell there were definitely minefields out today. She would say things, that might have led to a meltdown, but I tried my best to diffuse each and every situation with a joke, a smile, and positive thoughts and it worked. We came back home ate dinner, watched some TV. I stepped out to the bathroom and when I came out I noticed she was dressed to go out. (Do more errands) I was wondering whether she wanted me to go or not, but then said something along the lines of "you have your keys?" Which to me told me that yes she wanted to go. Dodged a couple of more potential sticky situations with a positive attitude and humor. She has been watching what she eats again (as if she needs to being a double zero) and gets annoyed easily when doing so. Then she falls asleep on the couch. I sit next to her, watch TV, she wakes up we talk a little I lay my head facing hers close to her. She then after a few seconds says, it makes her uncomfortable "to have you stare at me this close." I try to joke it off again, we both laugh. I keep watching TV she falls asleep again (BTW the couch has been her bed for about a month, still won't come back) Wakes up somehow we start a playfight lightly hitting each other and laughing, then I notice she gets a little more violent with some scratching. Yet we are still playing. We stop, then she sighs... I ask what's wrong, doesn't want to say at first but then says. I was hoping you'd get the hint that I was tired of you for today. I was actually trying to let you know that earlier. I got up and said oh sorry, well don't worry about I'm just going to go read in the master bedroom, and took off. She went back to sleep. Sleep crankiness? most likely. What bothered me was that she "tried to let me know that she was starting to get tired of being with me earlier today" and I completely missed it. I mean how was I supposed to know?! Luckily there was no anger on either side, and I tried to express that there was no problem with the space, and smiled as I left. Hopefully this will reinforce the notion that she needs to communicate these things with words, not cryptic actions.
I have no problem giving her some space, just don't expect me to pick up on it, through indirect actions.
Awkward day, but no one lost their temper. Let's call it neutral for now.
lol! You should be afraid... very, very afraid... ;-)
Sounds like your W is depressed, as well. Not good.
Don't feel bad about being a guy (Mars). You've likely seen around here where people talk about how guys like to either fix things or bury them, but need to do either and then move on.
You need to help 'cause that's what we do. It's hard not being me.
I had reread this topic and got caught on hope's assertion that women need to respect men.
That haunts me, because I know that my W lost respect for me in so many ways. Yet to me, that's such a male cop out and traditionalist view point. Yet in the end, that is such a core function of humans.
And then there's another post on another topic that indicates that women get pissed when men want a medal for washing the clothes or putting the dishes away, when the women are thinking to themselves "wish I knew you were doing the laundry so I could have given you a full load and thanks for the dishes, I just cleaned the rest of the entire house while you were doing that."
Just mumblings on your topic, but I think these things are really important for men to remember and figure out.
WAS or aliens or whatever... Men need to be men and women need to be them. It's what makes our world tick. And while it may not be our place to understand nor control our spouses, we need to appreciate and respect our biological differences.
Maybe we aren't talking about land mines any more, but rather biological warefare... lol!
Kaffe Diem I follow sparks thread too, since we are both in very similar sitch's. So I know what you are talking about. Actually I started washing the dishes and try to every once in a while do the laundry. I also started making the bed every morning. It was part of DBing since I knew she would notice and I had to Get used to these tasks anyway if I ended up alone. The respect thing can be so difficult. Especially since in my case it is not just about respect, but as we discussed before about control. In many ways these two concepts can be contradictory. I have been trying some 180's with relatively good results that are aimed at regaining respect. Silly things as being less passive when joking around and even turning jokes on her seem to garner me a little bit of respect. To think that before I was even scared of lightly poking fun of her, despite the cruel things she'd say for the sake of joking around.
At some point she mentioned years ago that she thought I had a big ego an didn't like that. I toned it down, but now I realize it may have led to the situation I am in where she just doesn't see me as an exciting and dynamic person.
As for the journal entry I'll wait till tomorrow a lot happened today. I actually stepped on the mine but did a good job diffusing it I think.
now that I can post real time, its time to catch up!
Journal entry Thursday 21 April, Anniversary
Well our anniversary was thursday and it went fairly well. Except for one serious mistake. In the morning I told her not to worry about dinner that I was going to make it tonight. She was puzzled and said don't worry about it. I replied with it's ok I have planned it out. Surprised she asked how many calories (she's a heavy calorie counter). I replied with 300 she got upset and walked out saying it was too many and went to lay down on the bed. (Probably telling herself how can i be so inconsiderate to plan a 300 calorie meal, yes I know. ) A few minutes later she came back and in a slightly better mood asked for what I had planned to make. I told her, she said it sounded interesting but the meal would mess with her plans. I tried staying calm, but I have to admit I was hurt. I could tell she could tell too, she asked if something was wrong tried to cheerfully play it off and left for work. During lunch I made her a hand made gift and bought her something simple she had been wanting. I got home gave her the gifts and she was surprised and asked why. I told her happy anniversary she seemed surprised and told me that she thought it was on the 16th of this month and I had just forgotten. (I find it hard to believe she'd forget). Well she cheerily wished me happy anniversary (a definite plus) , and I wished her back. The rest of the evening went well and at different points we got a little close. I made my mistake when I tried to give her a peck on the cheek. Sigh the worse part is that I should know better by now. She pulled away like a child, and we both quickly changed the conversation. Other then that it went well. No ML but nothing seriously bad And we had fun playing games.
gb, First, as a female veteran married to a soldier, let me say "thank you" for your service.
Second, wow, you have your hands full. Your w is deeply confused in some pretty major ways. She also sounds clinically depressed and not willing to get help. And she's treating you really badly. That's my take on your sitch. It's a tough one.
I don't see the DBing in your behavior. Some 180s that are good as far as helping around the house, but the rest of this obsessive micro scoping and excessive/constant monitoring of results after what, 3 hours? And the questions about what she meant/thought/felt, and then
her bludgeoning you with how UNattracted she is to you, unless she's half drunk--is toxic. That was a terrible thing she told you. She's gotten away with a lot of bad behavior, and your plan seems to be wait & see if it gets better. It won't. Most people who are in pain or selfish, (and she's both) will treat you as badly as you'll allow. They will not spontaneously decide to improve and become more selfless due to some discovered motivation. You have given her no motive to change the way she treats you, b/c you've accepted some pretty outrageous behaviors.
I say enough of this crazy setting you up for failure. Why on earth would you allow yourself to be signed up for sex with others when you don't want that? (For the record, I don't know of any people with long term marriages that were "open" and worked. At least all the ones I know who tried it all ended up divorced.) No more mind reading. If she can't plainly ask for what she wants, don't bother guessing and don't accept blame for not being a mind reader. She's an adult woman who is behaving like a spoiled child (with some weird habits) and you should not put up with that. Did you date much before you met her? What were those relationships like? Were you ever in love before?
Your present relationship sounds like its' primary focus is a sexual one, correct? Has that really satisfied you internally, spiritually and socially & professionally? Do you two have anything else in common? Esp since your sex life is not going so well, what else do you two have going for you as a couple? I mean if it is sex that bonds you and there are a ton of "conditions" she applies to sex now, to avoid it, so that your sexual needs are tossed aside, i hope there's something else.
I cannot believe she rated you after a ML session. Please, take it from me, a woman who likes it, you should not ask for her feedback. She'll give you feedback in a loving way, or you won't want it. Same goes for ML for that matter. This slap in your face about needing to be drunk to find you attractive is so uncalled for and almost unforgivable. It would take a lot for me to ever want to touch someone again, who said that to me. Sorry but I have to ask where your self respect is?
Before I forget, What's with her obsession about her body? Did you contribute to it? Is she fat? The 300 calories for your anniversary dinner sounds...well, crazy. Like batchit crazy.
She called you a "doormat" to your face. That's a pretty big clue that your approach isn't working, GB.
I'm not into yelling to show your strength. On the contrary, a calm control is a sign of strength. But her yelling or complaining about how you drive a shopping cart (aren't you at least tempted to laugh out loud at the insanity of her criticisms? I mean, they're outrageous) is just unreal...
But You can model self control and calmness without being a doormat. The way you describe her is like she's a lunatic tyrant. I'd have to address that unacceptable behavior to stay married. I would not want to live in fear of what will set off the crazy person next.
She's NOT WELL. I don't know if all her problems are sexual in nature but that's a unique aspect to marriage. It's a need that can usually only be met inside a marriage.
Yes I get how horrible it is to marry a guy in the military when your libido is super high, then he leaves you and now you're a forced celibate.
But she took the vows knowing you were active duty. And you're paying all the bills...and she's doing what? She is bringing what to the table? As a partner?
I don't buy the "figure out your orientation" argument that allows her to explore while married. Regardless of whether a person is hetero or bisexual, we agree when we make a vow forsaking all others, it means "all" others. Why give a pass for an affair, to someone b/c they feel confused? So what, you're still married.
Sorry but I don't get what you are trying to accomplish with all this lousy treatment you are accepting. And, Are you really the boring one? Really? (Geez, Maybe you are affected by the messed up depressed partner you chose...ya think?) That's another kind remark from your life partner. GB, did you date much? Enough to know that other people are not like this??
Why are YOU responsible for making her life interesting? Are you the hired entertainment? Who said it's your job to keep her happy and occupied and excited all the time and if she's not, then BOOM! She gets a divorce....OMG... I could not live with that level of extortion and tyranny. If she's bored, it her that is boring, not you.
She can go to college, at least the online schools, AND OR she could work too. I did both, like most women AND I had kids. Geez, Without kids and without a job I bet she does feel purposeless and bored. No wonder she's using all her free time (and she has a ton of it) to stare at her navel, and wonder what else she might to do make HER feel exciting...why not drugs? Hmm, bet that's crossed her mind.
She needs help. I can't see a way for you to feel good about this relationship without her making serious changes, which she seems uninterested in doing.
What would happen if she saw other women noticing you? I am not suggesting cheating or any games, but I KNOW if she continues to see you as a doormat, it's not a hopeful situation. It's a demeaning one in which neither of you will get satisfaction and no, I'm not just talking about sex.
May I suggest you hire a DB coach and get 3 sessions in? I know they're pricey but it's the single best thing I did. Plus, I don't have a lot to suggest to you otherwise, b/c this is one of the most outrageous behaviors I've read about here, and that is saying a lot.
I can only urge you to get your self confidence and self respect back and to walk out when she teats you badly or yells. And to let her go file or leave or live on the streets, or whatever else she threatens you with, when she doesn't get her way. Enough with the extortionary tactics. What kind of relationship is like this? (btw, I am glad she doesn't want kids.)
You deserve better.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25years Ouch!! and I say ouch because you hit so many things on the mark. I guess I better start addressing why I have stuck around all these years. Our relationship did not start like this, it was a steady gradual progression into what I am seeing now. We have always had (and continue to have) a lot of fun together. She is actually a very loving and caring person, she is very good at reading me and will always go the extra mile to make me feel better. Sex has been very important but our relationship is so much more. We make each other smile on a daily basis, and enjoy going out together, watching movies, or just playing video games together. Sometimes it is easy to only post bad stuff while venting That being said yes you are right, where is my self respect? I have attributed a lot of these behaviors to depression especially since the most egregious ones happen in episodes. Yet as you have said I do feel like there is a general lack of respect on her part. I started noticing these when hope made a very similar comment. A lot of my initial DB attempts focused around fixing the things she found extremely annoying about my personality. While they did work in that I have learned to avoid a lot of the land mines, like you have said they haven't fixed some of the fundamental issues. So a few days ago I had to make some tweeks. Many which are already working. Here is my revised 180 list:
1. No more self depricating humor. Yeah no more making fun of myself for a smile. It's small but I feel it has contributed to it.
2. No more letting her insult me in jokes. Once again respect.
3. Turn the tables, and gently poke fun at her. I stopped doing that a long time ago, because I was afraid of her reaction. I am not cruel whatsoever, but gently poke we actually both laugh which is good, but it shows that she can be laughed at too.
4. Don't let her belittle my work. She used to think I had the most badass job in the world. I told her while I was gone that my job wasn't so dangerous to help her feel better. She somehow got the impression I was no longer a badass. I now correct those on the spot. In order for her to respect what I do she needs to know the truth.
5. I also let her know when I find something disrespectful, I tell her it bothers me and tell her why it is not true.
6. Most importantly I get mad. I used to just let things slide for the sake of the marriage, now I let her know of my displeasure. I don't try to get overboard, but generally cut my amount of interaction so that she realizes that I am not in the best of moods. It causes more ripples that I would like, but on the other hand I have been getting apologies lately which are really nice.
It has been a weird balance between demanding respect, yet being a loving husband. I realize that being too extreme or not enough in either direction will most likely make things worse.
I realize that these 180's don't address the big elephant in the room. What I do hope they will do is set the stage to eventually address the issue. I am treating her actions as if she had an OM or OW and realize that until certain preconditions are met (such as her respecting me and truly valuing me) demanding for her to stop would only drive her further into it. So I am making myself more valuable, by becoming a better person and my affection being more scarce. The next journal entry actually addresses this.
GB90 - Sorry I haven't been around this last week. Sounds like you are still on the roller coaster. I think the advice from 25 years is pretty awesome. She shot it to you pretty straight. You have got to make these 180s for YOU. That is the true nature of DBing. Make yourself more valuable and attractive, because it is what YOU want. Make the changes in yourself that YOU think you need.
Keep it up, man.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
I agree with most of what you wrote except for #3. Teasing her in a way you do NOT want to be teased is just unfair, and models behavior you DO NOT want in your R. Instead, I'd model positives and show that humor is not actually witty, if it always comes at someone else's expense. It's just hurtful and my h and I noticed a few decades ago, that couples who mock each other while "teasing" are usually hurting each other. They are showing contempt under the guise of humor and they don't last as couples. I write comedy as an avocation and I support the use of humor and exaggeration to diffuse awkward situations or to illustrate a point.
But I think your R sounds really toxic at this point, so I'd really avoid doing anything as hypocritical as demanding respect and not showing self deprecation WHILE teasing her to "turn the tables". I know you want to teach her something, but here's the kicker, it's not our job to teach our spouses. It's life's job and God's. That's why I don't support those who want to teach their spouse "a lesson" b/c in reality, it's almost always a form of punishment or revenge. Compliment her, sincerely. Also I suggest reading Chapmans' book "The Five Love Languages" so you can relate to her in a way she'll be most receptive to AND you can express your own love language so she knows what YOU respond most to. Don't assume she knows, neither one of you is a mind reader.
Also, I am not clear on what you meant when you said you want to show your anger more? I think you mean you won't accept poor treatment from her, which I get, but if you are saying that showing anger somehow makes you get respect, I'd have to strongly disagree.
My DB coach was adamant that I not show my h my anger when he visited, b/c why would he want to be around that? He knew I was hurt, I didn't need to demonstrate it repeatedly. Bottom line is, am I attracting him to me and home with my anger (even if I'm "right" to be angry) or am I pushing him away? Remember, do what works. I had to contrast what he thought he'd find "out there" with what really existed at home. Warm sunny & happy at home...cold dark weird up on the tundra...make sense?
Note what I wrote in the original post to you about how strong it comes across to be calm & cool. To me, when there's a crisis or chaos all around, the calm & cool man, is THE MAN. (Like in combat, you aren't freaking out. You're focussed). That's badass to me and it's attractive. Anger is not attractive. A man who loses his cool or storms off is having a tantrum in effect. He's stomping his feet b/c he didn't get his way, or he's trying to physically intimidate a smaller person.
I guess if she starts ranting like she's batchit crazy again, I would warn her ONCE that you won't accept that type of treatment and then if it continues you tell her you'll talk to her when she is ready to talk calmly, about whatever it is that bothers her. And you then walk out of the room. Once you two address the matter, no more silent treatment. So if she approaches and apologizes and you accept her apology, you drop it. You don't throw it in her face a week later. No score cards or built up grievance lists.
A lot of the interactions you describe sound punitive, on both your ends, and it's what you both do when you are hurt. THat's not healty (or mature, which is why I asked those questions about other prior R's in your life). But I'm glad to hear you two have other things in common.
If that's true, then those types of good memories will resurface in her and she'll have some perspective. Right now it just sounds a lot like you are trying to please someone who is inherently deeply unhappy within. It's not your job and it's not healthy for HER to lay the responsibility for HER happiness on YOU. We are each responsible only for our own happiness. Process that. We only control ourselves, and no one else is going to make YOUR happiness their priority. What healthy thing does she do to make herself happy?
Telling you that she finds you boring (God, another nearly unforgivable comment!) is just another way of saying she's miserable and doesn't know how to be happy (hello? Depression??) But what's worse is she's holding YOU responsible for her own health and happiness. You cannot enable that.
I think you've got some good ideas to work with. Seriously consider a DB coach. Have you read the books? I'm telling you their coaches are spot on and specific in their advice.
Good luck
Otherwise your list is a great start.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
That being said yes you are right, where is my self respect? I have attributed a lot of these behaviors to depression especially since the most egregious ones happen in episodes. Yet as you have said I do feel like there is a general lack of respect on her part. I started noticing these when hope made a very similar comment. A lot of my initial DB attempts focused around fixing the things she found extremely annoying about my personality. While they did work in that I have learned to avoid a lot of the land mines, like you have said they haven't fixed some of the fundamental issues. So a few days ago I had to make some tweeks. Many which are already working. Here is my revised 180 list: