Sparks I wish I could get her to counseling but she refuses. She had a pretty bad counselor as a teen and shuns all now. Even marriage counselors.
After casually joking about sex she mentioned it could only happen if she was liquored up otherwise she was not comfortable. She asked what if I can never get over this. To which I said these things take time..... She has a hard time being intimate with me at all levels despite being back, and this is seriously hampering reconciliation.
Yeah... it does sound like there's so much more here than meets the eye.
Let's back the truck up. And let's get rid of the gory details. Because it does not sound like she wants to have an EA or PA and it does not sound like she wants you to have and EA or PA, yet she says she wants an open marriage where either or both of you could have other partners.
It sounds like she feels trapped.
She may not now and may not ever have an EA or PA, bi or hetero... But she might just be looking to you to tell her it would be OK. Even though she would always have the option, perhaps she's panicked and thinking that she might... and it might be bi... and if that were to ever happen, would that be OK by you... and you could simply say yes, and move on... getting rid of that "issue", yet being very clear that even though you agree to it, you never would.
But... understand that she might use that against you. Saying that she doesn't trust you because you agreed to an open marriage.
I would say that if she won't go to counseling, you need to find the root of the problem. Have you asked her "why?" Maybe I missed that in your posts.
Ask some really good questions about this and listen closely. I'm sure the reason will be in her response. Just how obvious the answer is will depend.
Sigh here we go again, got back from work. Things seemed alright, she was cooking dinner through a couple of interactions I could tell that she was not in a good mood but was trying to be friendly. I would do seemingly innocuous things I could tell in her actions that they would annoy her, but she would push them away. We got through dinner, laughed a little while watching TV, and then she suggested we go get the ingredients to make margaritas. I was pleasantly surprised and agreed, I was also thinking that she wanted to loosen up so we could ML tonight. We got what we needed, I still felt like I was walking on eggshells. Then as we were getting in the car from the liquor store one of the bags pressed the panic button on my car keys. The car went off, and she got upset, said how dare I humiliate her like that. I tried explaining but she just said, let;s get out of here. So we did, she calmed down and then said let's go to safeway to pick up limes for the Margaritas, we did. Then at safeway she got "annoyed" at how I was driving the cart saying it was annoying because I either followed her too closely or too far. The last straw was at the ice cream aisle when she stopped suddenly I stopped thinking she wanted to look at something then said: Why did you stop?! I was going to tell you something but nevermind, you can come back for it later. We checked out, but she was being very moody. Then on the way home she said: Is there anything else I can do. I replied not in this town (we live in a very small town) anything we do now will keep us from doing something on the weekend. She groaned in reluctant agreement and I drove home. Once home she started talking about how she can't stand me and is starting to be annoyed at me again. (What I call WAW mode). I tried saying some reassuring words and to not make a big deal of this. She sat on the couch I did too and turned on the TV. After a few minutes she got up, got in her and drove away....She'll probably be back in an hour or so....just don't know in what mood, and how much of a setback this is. SIGH gotta keep DBing, just hate how this setback SOOOO doesn't seem like my fault. Almost feel like she sabotaged our margarita night on purpose because of some insecurity she may be feeling. It's going to be really hard not to be resentful once she returns.
ok so I made the first post in order to vent, washed some dishes to calm down, but it has not helped much.
I'm just frustrated that she is reverting again.
Kaffe Diem
Not sure exactly what is going on, but I have tried going back to way back. We started in a very sexual relationship. It was almost all the relationship was, I found out that before she had dirtbag of a boyfriend. This guy waited till she was 18 then took her out, tried to take her virginity and when she refused he did it anyway. She stayed with him, until she found out that he cheated on her knocked up another girl. She had enough and left. She then had a couple of other relationships, but became open to having sex with many different people. I was to be just another one. (In truth there were only 2 or 3 other guys before me) Yet we kept seeing each other fell in love and got married. I noticed that before the wedding about a month before sex became less frequent. On our wedding night, I kept trying to initiate yet she refused. Saying she didn't want to be forced into sex. All I could think was "great so this is what it is like to be married". While sex did happen this whole "not being forced" became a theme, to this very day she hates it when I initiate. She claims that she still has a high libido, but went from saying that I suck at initiating, to then saying that she was just not interested in me. During the reconciliation process it has been "I'm not comfortable for you to initiate unless I am buzzed".
So after I have "realized" all this tonight. I am left wondering, does she have a hard time being sexual with those she cares about because of that bastard? Does non-emotional sex (and thus the open marriage) seem like something more she can accept, rather than risk getting hurt with me? Is this why she has never wanted to cuddle afterwards? sigh...
Did she sabotage tonight, just like the last two date nights because of this? She claims that all this open marriage stuff is to explore how she really feels. She has a High Libido, except when I get into the equation. Then she uses this to rationalize her WAW tendencies. I want sex but can;t with you, we can't be married. I also think her frustration is what makes her so irritable sometimes.....
Off my rocker? spot on? I hope this posts soon, cause I need some support for my own mental health.
Gave her lots of space, went to the room did some things I had to do. I went to the living room where she has been sleeping (by her own choice) to put a book away. She tried to say something but stopped. I asked her to go ahead and say it. She said: "I am 99% sure we wont make it by the end of the year" I tried to tell her that I understand and agree that this is a terrible situation. To which she replied with her common. "It will suck for me more I have nowhere to go". All I could say was I know it will be hard. Got quiet and she asked if I needed anything else, I said no, and she went with me to the room to get some of her hygiene stuff. As she left the room, I asked her if I could ask a question. She said you already did (a common response from her during happier times, but her mood was not happy) So I said can I ask 3 questions. (With her that counted as one of the three. I said: I could tell today that something was bothering you as soon as I got home, what was it? her response: "I was tired..." I tried leaving it at that, but then she asked what my other question was. I tried thinking of my feet and asked: "Is there anything I could have done to have made things better?" Her response: "If I knew we wouldn't be in this situation" Then she left.
Should I worry? or am I getting more common WAW talk? What CAN I do to make things better? It's a little hard to DB when your partner can't communicate the solutions they need. Or for that matter I myself can't understand what she is trying to tell me.
Shooting straight here but as a woman my take is she's not attracted to you because she has no respect for you. She pushes the line to the most selfish extremes and you let her. She's gotten you to agree to an open marriage that's truly only open to her, she's got you paying the bills, she doesn't care what you feel or request and she shows little kindness. If you don't man up, set boundaries, do 180s and earn respect she'll be gone. She may go anyway but you've got to get your own self respect back. You obviously love her and would do anything for her, a man of honor who serves his country. Buddy, show her what she's risking losing. You've been to war, you can do this.
Me - 38, 2nd M, no living children, 1 forever 6 yr old boy H - 44, 3rd M, twins 16
Dating 4/07 M 10/08 Bomb #1 12/10 Bomb #2 1/11 Bomb #3 12/11
Hope2011 I think the next entry will answer your concerns.
Date night again last night, we did dinner, and a movie. We both drank I had one she had too. She was in a good mood. We both liked the movie. Things were going well. Afterwards she asked if there was anything else we could do since she didn't want to go home. I proposed we drive around our little crappy town until something came up. She agreed, in the middle of the drive she once again expressed her frustration over her high desire, yet no desire for me. I told her I had high desire too, and was frustrated too. She once again responded that I was free to go look, and that I should feel lucky she wasn't out with someone else instead. This lead to the conversation as to why am I letting her, despite not wanting myself, and feeling uncomfortable about the whole situation. She expressed that she felt I was acting like a doormat (ouch). I started telling her that ultimately I don't want her too, but recognize that I can't make that choice for her, only she can. I am merely giving her a chance to discover what it is she wants. She then asks, what if I don't want to stay. (Here is where I think I am strong). I told her how it was her choice, not mine and that I had long ago accepted it. She then asked then why keep trying. I responded that it was the only way to be true to myself, but that regardless I know I can be happy. I just want for us to be happy together. That the changes weren't for her, they are for me. That I know that she finds me annoying, as do other people, and that I know that I need to change otherwise I will end up alone and isolated. We talked about my insecurities, and how it has led me to act the way I have. How I desperately want to change, for myself. If she finds that attractive then good, if not then too bad, but it will always be her choice. (One of my 180;s is that I know she feels I am too controlling, and manipulative.) She then started to describe how she felt, I noticed all the patterns of the WAW. 1. Trying to ignore the problem, 2. passively trying to change the problem, 3. angrily changing the problem, 4 not caring, and 5. then walking away. She was shocked when I took step 4 and 5 out of her mouth, and told her that I understood how she felt, and was trying to make amends for that. She then interrupted the R talk and said lets finish this later, and get some ice cream before they close. She's never been good at handling R talk, she usually finds a reason to get mad or completely avoids it. This one was brief but very friendly and we both got to express a lot of our feelings in a good way. We didn't ML or continue the R talk last night, instead I asked her for a massage which led to what must have been an hour long tickle war . It wasn't just a tickle war she grabbed tight onto me the whole time, and even jumped on top of me a few times. We haven't had so much physical contact in months, it was very nice. Rebuilding intimacy one step at a time right...
Hope2011 I know what I am doing seems in many ways spineless, ironically it is part of my 180. I was possessive, controlling, and manipulative. I realize that I did keep her in a "golden cage", and realize that the demands for the open marriage may just be an extreme reaction to me controlling her. My hope is to make her realize that, it will no longer be the case. In other words the open marriage is a symptom of her feeling caged. Much like many spouses seek OM or OW to rebel. By 180ing and rebuilding intimacy I hope those emotions will go away, hopefully before a PA or EA happens.
gb90, it does sound like that is the "reason" for her need to "have an open relationship." This guy who took her without her consent. Maybe there's something further back from that. Only she knows.
So now you DB. No fixing her past. Move forward with giving her the knowledge and experience of being in control of the relationship and sex. This has been pointed at numerous times.
What does she find attractive in you? Have you ever asked her why she liked you in the first place? The "tickle fest" was a great thing. Sounded very positive. It was non-threatening sexually, yet she obviously took the aggressor role quite strongly. She was "in control" (in her own mind) and was able to be this way with you, and yet still not have sex. I would expect that made her feel good.
Her respect to you may end up coming from her knowledge that you accept she is in control of her own sexuality. What you need to be is attractive to her so that she won't go seeking elsewhere. Maybe go back to how you were behaving when you were courting her. She may have found the marriage itself a trap by you to control the sex and intimacy, even though she went along with it.
The eggshells are simply you not knowing what her triggers are. The "land mines" so to speak. Find the land mines and you'll know what to avoid. Then you can stop walking on eggshells and figure out how to diffuse those mines. Your confidence will show through when you are not walking on the eggshells.
Last night went mostly well with only one hiccup. We got dinner at a local place, then rented some movies to watch at home. One was an old horror/suspense movie from the 70's. Very terrible... The other was Scott Pilgrim which well describes me and her to a T. I am Scott and she is Ramona.... Even to her getting upset cause the character stole her hair lol. It is a very funny movie meant for 20 somethings, but man it mirrored me and my W. Even at the last part where he defeats her final suitor (there is seven btw) with the "sword of self respect". A few minutes earlier he had tried the "sword of love" and failed miserably. Confusing, yes I know, watch the movie Ultimately though it was self respect for himself that won her back, not needy clingy love. Sounds a lot like DB doesn't it? Anyway we had a lot of fun and even made those margaritas she wanted to make. The drinking didn't spur spontaneous ML, and thats because she temporarily lost her temper because I didn't know I had to wash the limes before squeezing them. (Guy mistake I know, but in her mind I should have known.) Because of this she didn't drink enough to loosen up, but oh well. I feel wrong getting sex this way anyway, and would rather be patient. (It's hard though). I made no big deal of it, we watched the movie kept laughing, before we went to bed I could tell things were a little awkward. (She was very likely still angry about the limes). I picked a play-fight and we started a 10 minute tickle fight.
This morning I tried to gently wake her up. (She hates being woken up, yet gets angry at other people when they let her sleep in sigh...)I got close gently started to say good morning, I didn't get to finish the first syllable in "good morning" when she woke up screaming. (She has been doing this a lot lately). Gets mad if I let her sleep in, gets mad because she gets horribly frightened when I wake her up, no matter how gently I try to do it. We have planned to drive to the nearest major city, to pick up some graphic novels. The land mines are deployed everywhere today....
Kaffe Diem
As to your assessment I whole heartedly agree, there have been some control and independence issues I have had to rectify. One of the things I had to work on was not being so helpful. Turns out she hates that, and as an idiot I in a way resented that she didn't want my help. I only ever try to give suggestions if asked, for example she is planning a trip to see her favorite band, and I had to control myself and let her plan it herself. Even when she finally did ask for help I started doing things my way, and she started getting upset so I had to back down and let her do it her way.
Journal entry I really wanted to make an "alls well" entry today, but I guess it is just not going to happen. As I mentioned before the mine field was out today. Things had seriously calmed down by noon, and everything seemed to have been going well. We got ready to leave the house to do some shopping and just some general shopping around. I put some shoes against the wall in my way out and she very sarcastically said "oh that wont scuff the wall" (they didn't). I pushed it aside and got in the car. She then started saying she wanted to get rid of her limited edition clothes collection. How she spent all this time getting ready and then she didn't even feel like wearing any of the clothes. I tried validating, but then she started complaining about not wanting to go to the city. I said we have nothing else to do. She reluctantly agreed. She then started saying she hated being with me because I am so boring. I said I disagreed With me being boring, but I understand how she can feel suffocated in the small town we live in. She insisted it was me. I told her to wait till the Military moved us overseas ( I made a lot of sacrifices to get us our dream assignment overseas). She said no it was me. At this point I said " I don't know about you but I will have a lot of fun with or without you overseas, I hope you decide to come with me." She got quiet then asked if I had said that to spite her. (I didn't I swear). I replied "no I just want you to know that good times are coming and that I hope you can join me". She got quiet again for a few minutes, then started saying she didn't want to go to the city with me. I said fine we can go back home, she said no, then I said or you can go by yourself. I'll find something else to do. She responded with "I don't know what I want". I told her I would keep heading to the city until she decided otherwise. Again she reluctantly agreed. As we drove she kept telling me that she cared less and less about everything, how her life had no meaning, how she couldn't keep going. How she didn't care to live. How she wasn't happy how she didn't even know if she had ever been happy. I just tried to listen and not interject. Eventually she asked why wasn't I talking to her. Why the silent treatment. I mumbled something about not wanting to put my foot in my mouth. I started talking about the little things in life and how they gave me meaning. How I dealt with realizing I would never be famous or change history, but instead how I now focus in enjoying life and the small things. Usually I'd just get quiet or a negative response sometimes I'd get quiet myself. Halfway there she broke her silence and in a one word sentence said "sorry". I just smile at her and said it's ok "I understand". She said no you don't. I told her that while I couldn't see into her mind I knew she was having a hard time. I changed the conversation to talk about our plans once we got to the city. Everything went pretty smooth afterwards except for some complaints about my driving ( a common grievance of hers). We still had fun, we got home early watched some tv together she made us s'mores and even let me give her a back rub.
Phew what a day..... Wouldn't trade her for the world
. It wasn't just a tickle war she grabbed tight onto me the whole time, and even jumped on top of me a few times. We haven't had so much physical contact in months, it was very nice. Rebuilding intimacy one step at a time right...
Ultimately though it was self respect for himself that won her back, not needy clingy love. Sounds a lot like DB doesn't it? Anyway we had a lot of fun and even made those margaritas she wanted to make. The drinking didn't spur spontaneous ML, and thats because she temporarily lost her temper because I didn't know I had to wash the limes before squeezing them. (Guy mistake I know, but in her mind I should have known.) Because of this she didn't drink enough to loosen up, but oh well. I feel wrong getting sex this way anyway, and would rather be patient. (It's hard though). I made no big deal of it, we watched the movie kept laughing, before we went to bed I could tell things were a little awkward. (She was very likely still angry about the limes). I picked a play-fight and we started a 10 minute tickle fight.