I'm in a situation which is very like many others, but strangely not.
The "very like many others" is that after a very stressful three years in an 18-year marriage (I'm 40, she's 41) (both of us were in doctoral programs and me with a fixed three years to complete), W went back to the states for a trip right before we moved back (we were living overseas)... we were having some marital difficulties but with the pressure of the programs we left things unaddressed too long (much kicking myself for this, but it was hard to see through the crushing pressure and the fact that on the days we weren't having trouble we were having TONS OF FUN going back to college in our 40s!).
During her trip, we exchanged some actually really good, deep, communicative emails, and she said some lovely things (that she would love me forever, that she appreciated the things I was saying and looked forward to discussing things in person "with a smile on her face")...
...two weeks later when she came back to help with the move, she wouldn't kiss me. After we got back to the states, she said that she just felt "done with the relationship. Just... done." We tried a counselor, but it was a poor match and did more harm than good. She said she was ready to pack the car and serve me with papers but in our last counseling session we decided she would go to her sister's for Christmas and a month or so of a dissertation-writing retreat.
Well, I did a great job of changing behaviours in the month I had alone, and she came back and decided to stay. After a few months of peaceful, even reasonably happy cohabiting (with her in the guest room), she said "this is comfortable and livable, but it's not enough. I need a REASON to stay." No affection other than the occasional hug.
So we started seeing another counselor, who is a much better fit. But... there's just not much progress.
And this is what is strange to me comparing this to other WAW/MLC stories: she is not "acting out"; aside from some mildly threatening talk ("By the way, I haven't had an affair, although I admit I was tempted" and such--which I believe, mostly because she's lousy at lying), there doesn't seem to be an OM. We get along--even very well at times, cooking and working on projects together, watching and laughing at the same movies, etc, like good friends.
But by the same token, there's no progress... she's not working on her dissertation, she won't look for a job ("even though I know it would help") because she doesn't feel like she should commit when her "gut is telling her to go." She says she has fun with me, "but it's the sort of fun and conversation [she] could have with any friend, and if marriage is just like friendship but with fewer options, why do it?" She claims that if she leaves she will never be married again because it's "so limiting."
She just feels... "done." And her individual therapist has implied that "once you feel done, it'll never change."
Now, I don't believe that. And I'm TOTALLY baffled that she got to "done" right after some great conversations (her take: "I guess I was just away from you long enough to realize I like myself more when I'm not with you.") She admits that I've made drastic changes ("I can really stand to be around you now.")...
...but still says "you haven't given me a reason to stay", and realizes that the situation is painful for me and wants to leave because she "feels like an [censored] for leading [me] on when [she doesn't] really believe it will change."
Nothing I put forth works; logical reasons (economic benefits of marriage, etc) are no good because this is an emotional problem (she will say "money doesn't matter", for example). But emotional reasons fall flat because she doesn't feel them RIGHT NOW ("If I could believe we would have an emotional connection again, that might be a reason."). So it's a neat trap I can't win.
So the situation is really surreal; one day she will be telling me how she wants to "go, go, go" and feels trapped; the next she will be planning what upholstery would go with the furniture and what renovations to make around the house.
So... this is just the damnedest thing. Our therapist has suggested an extended separation, but after discussing it for a few days neither one of us is convinced that would really help (I'm even open to it depending on how it's executed).
But every conversation eventually comes back to her "just feeling... done" and believing that she can't come back from it. She has a history of depression but assures me that her therapist says she's not depressed now. She "misses an emotional connection" with me but can't figure out how to get it back. She "wants to feel a reason to stay" but just doesn't.
So it's really confusing! I'm not sure which bits of DR are appropriate; I want to detach to reduce my pain, but I want to stay engaged to try and build an emotional connection. I can't tell if a separation would be good to give her a chance to know herself, or really bad because she'd move into a communal apartment with some friends, have a party time, and not want to return (particularly if she finds a job). I want to keep her here so we can work on this, but if she "feels trapped" then keeping her here may just build resentment.
Dang, it's confusing! I cry a LOT (an embarassing amount; basically to/from work almost every day since that's my only private time), and try to hide that from her because she finds it very distressing. She says she wants to feel attractive and sexy, but then seems disturbed when I try to compliment her. And it's hard to say her attitude is combative... just fatalistic ("I think we've had an amazing marriage, but maybe it's just time to move on"... "You are an amazing person; I would write a recommendation letter for you to any other woman in the world.")
Got no idea, man. We've been working on this for about six months now and while she can stand to be around me now... there's no warmth, no romance, and any attempts fall pretty flat. I feel like time is running out, and it's shredding me emotionally seeing her every day and having her just out of reach.
Any suggestions from anyone? This is really surreal. How do you get someone back from "done"?
I believe you are in the Last Resort Technique. Since what you resist persists...you need to not try to talk her out of this. It may feel counterintuitive.
I think the compliments aren't working because she wants a different APPROACH from you.
You task--finding out what works for her to trigger the attraction. Who else is she attracted to (stars, for example). It might not be super easy for you to figure this out, but she has left clues throughout your marriage. Dig deep.
I don't always agree with some of the folks on the board who talk about what makes a man attractive--because it doesn't work for all or necessarily most women. I think it IS what YOUR wife is looking for. That 'it' factor.
Check out DENVER 2010's threads, seek advice from JackThreeBeans (I'll alert him) and sandi2. You'll be steered in the right direction.
>You task--finding out what works for her to trigger the >attraction. Who else is she attracted to (stars, for example). It >might not be super easy for you to figure this out, but she has >left clues throughout your marriage. Dig deep.
I'm trying. We've even had good discussions about "well, why did you marry me?" and a lot of it was that I made her feel special, that I communicated well, ("my fantasies are about men who talk!"). And of all the physical/immediate attributes that I have going for me, she only really complimented me on my voice (this actually led to some major "bedroom friction" between us... I felt like she didn't find me attractive physically, where she saw me ignoring her needs because I wasn't talking enough--I really felt put on the spot, like I needed to do erotic creative writing in an improvisational setting while simultaneously being, er, actively involved).
She also wants someone who will "notice what she needs" and provide it (backrubs when she's tired, see when she's had a bad day and listen, see when she's done something cool and cheer, etc). She wants someone who would be her "biggest fan and best cheerleader."
...which is great, except that she refuses to let me give her back/foot rubs, never does anything I can cheer for (mostly stays in the house all day watching movies and texting her online friends) and if she's had a bad day it's about the relationship, which is murky waters at best and disastrous to discuss at worst!
I'll check out the referred threads. Completely baffled still on a daily basis.
Fairly new myself.... There are a lot of differences between your sitch and mine, but thematically your experience and mine match up. She is expressing having given up, because to her there are some issues which she has tried to communicate to you in the past before but you have failed to pick up on. Whether she did a good job in expressing them before or not, is irrelevant. To most women, the right man "would just know", and she shouldn't have to tell you it should be instinctual. I will assume that at this point you still don't know what your issues are. Nothing to be ashamed of, I have barely started digging the surface in my sitch. In my opinion if she is this fatalistic she truly believes, she has given you a chance and you blew it. I bet you feel clueless about it too. So here is what you need to do:
1. Stop the self pity party, don't pursue relationship talk, don't beg, don't grovel. Accept the situation, at this point you can't come off as whiny or needy. It's not attractive, and if there is OM(not saying there is) he will just seem that much more desirable compared to you.
2. Validate her feelings, we men like to think we are logical beings. When both sexes are just as emotional and irrational. Her feelings are her reality, no matter how illogical or how much you disagree. Appeals to logic or reason, just reinforce to her that "you just don't get it, and you never will". You need to show her that you understand even if it means temporarily accepting things you don't agree on. If you can't agree at least say "I understand how you would feel this way". You'll find that once she calms down she'll be more logical. We call this state where the spouse seems to forget all reason and all happy moments "the fog" around here. It's a defense mechanism they build to help them detach. Only they can bring themselves out of the fog, any attempts by you will only drive them deeper in, and into the arms of someone that "understands them". Your first chance to validate her feelings will most likely be when she complains about you, accept the criticism use them to start positive changes. Which leads to point 3.
3. Start making positive changes. Start with the small things, clean up the house, groom better, excel at work, work out. WAW notice these things. Get a life (GAL) make her a little jealous (with out involving other women of course). As much as they may deny it women want super men.
4. Do 180's. Stop yourself ask what you would do in a particular situation and do the opposite, no matter how illogical it may seem. If she reacts well, or at least does not get mad where she previously would have, you made a success, and should stick to it. For example: I was always trying to be helpful, and could not understand why she would get upset. It was an independence issue, now I let her come to me. I know it seems to be contrary but it works. For angry men it means being more passive, for passive men it means being stronger. She already doesn't like you now so might as well try the opposite.
5.Stay positive!!! SMILE more! Look at the bright side of life. Do this mostly for yourself, and as a bonus your spouse may find the energy irresistible.
I have been at it for 2 months lurking around the forum and trying these, with what I believe is decent success. I still have some ways to go but remember it is not a sprint it is a marathon. When in this situation even the ugliest of fights or the most wonderful nights can be forgotten by the next morning, its just the nature of the fog. Keep working on yourself.
Am in a similar position myself in terms of having that friendly cohabitation and not being sure whether to withdraw and totally lose any remaining emotional connection or try and maintain the friendliness and contact.
It is so painful not being able to do the simple things, isn't it, just the little kiss, stroke or message.
I have no advice, merely support from someone on a parallel path. Stay strong.
Reality is that which, if you don't believe in it, doesn't go away.
Don't want to hijack your thread, but I had to comment on how she has expressed what she wants yet, refuses for you to give it to her. My W does this too. Not saying I know your W but consider that the fact she had to tell you makes it undesirable now since "you should have known on your own in the first place". Any attempts now will just look phony and temporary. Instead focus on the needs you can fulfill for her without her direct permission tidy up the house, wash the dishes for her, take up that hobby you have neglected to. If you stick to these she will tell that you are serious in changing to meet your needs and hers. Eventually she will let you take care of her, because she believes it is the new you not the guy trying to make a last ditch attempt. This will take time.
Yeah, it's still baffling. I've tried doing some of the above, too...
For example, I have correctly identified a lot of my issues (the frustrating thing is we were identifying them and working on them RIGHT BEFORE IT BROKE DOWN! GAH! I feel like we missed a window of opportunity by two weeks!). And in our first trial separation I fixed a lot of them--and she has noticed!
I'm doing my best to GAL, going to meetup events without her, starting to go to dance classes (a chance to be active and social and meet/casually flirt with women in a consequence-free environment, ie you're expected to trade partners and make small talk but definitely not "getting involved", and while it hasn't been all that social it's good for my ego to learn something new). That sort of thing. But still do stuff with her on weekends (we just got back from the museum and a big lunch with friends, then a little work trying to get our hot tub operational). I'm doing fine at work (it's affecting me a little but I'm keeping ahead) and still working out sporadically, not as much as last year but enough to keep in shape.
But it's... difficult to figure out what line to take. One complaint is that I was being too controlling (my mistake; I was trying to help her with stated goals by being a bit of a "coach", ie she said she wanted to get in shape so I was badgering her to work out and eat better, etc)... so I'm trying to give her more freedom and choice. And yet another complaint is that I'm too passive and not exciting enough--"I never get the excited feeling, 'I want to know what happens next'" So it's tough to tell. I've started changing my tack from "hey, would you like to do X" to "I'm going to do X, would you like to come along?" and I think that's helping a little bit.
Not sure on small tokens of affection... I can "get away" with the occasional hand hold or touch, but I can't tell if it's having a good, bad, or any affect at all.
And always... "I just feel done. You need to give me a reason to stay."
Mysteriously, my copy of DR has gone missing, and now I'm all confused. I almost thought she had taken it, but she's not mentioned anything, so I can't tell if I misplaced it or what. Hm.
hoswald It sounds like you are doing all the right things, now you just have to be consistent and keep going. Don't worry about "too late" there is no such thing. If she tries to remind you that it is too late, don't fall into that trap she's trying to see if these are phony last ditch attempts. Just remind her, these changes are for me, it is never too late to improve myself. Watch how this will rock the foundations of her beliefs about you.
She says she wants help and encouragement, she means emotional support not any actual actions. She doesn't really want you to do anything, trust me I have the same problem. I have at times had to bite my lip and not make helpful suggestions, trust me she doesn't want to hear them. This just makes her think that you don't respect her enough to solve her own problems. Express that you understand her problem, and only really help when she asks. Don't take over for her. Even if she asks keep your help to a minimum, unless again she asks for more help. Counterintuitive I know, but this is why were both in this sitch right?
Giving her a choice to come along is good. I am doing the same.
As for affection, DONT SEEK IT. It [censored] the stereotype is that we don't need affection, but I'm sure you can attest to that not being the truth. Ultimately though she doesn't want to give it and ANY attempts will just disgust make her feel forced, and cause her to resent you more. Be positive, be happy, let her come to YOU. It will suck I know, but will feel heavenly when she does, even if it's just her brushing your shoulder. She will notice too if you stop holding her hand and such, let her miss the small things.
Finally I have heard many times "I just feel done. You need to give me a reason to stay." This to me is a cry for help, and a very positive statement. I translate this as "I want to you to change, I want to save this, but I don't think you can, so I need to protect myself, by telling myself you most likely won't". Prove her wrong!! Keep making changes, and most importantly stick to them!!!
Hoswald, I can relate to you on many levels. My H & I still live together, get along great, never really had any big arguments, but he feels emotionally disconnected and numb. If he knew things could really be great, he'd be willing to say but there are "no guarantees". I don't know which way to turn either. Keep GAL & doing things for yourself. One thing I have seen repeated here is to do those things for YOU & not for her.
Me 36, H 38, S 3 T 16, M 14 Bomb: 3/18/11 Not separated, in limbo
I'm workin' it! Actually had a surprisingly positive weekend, so I'm expecting a "rubberband" bit of negativity soon. We went to a museum with friends, and finally cut the lock off the hot tub that came with the house and almost got it working (slight leak that we're going to have someone check out)--I figure either she'll love it or if I wind up alone I'll have a proper luv pad (almost funny except for the obvious pain involved...).
And then today we did a lot of stuff together, keeping up the house, driving away woodpeckers, that sort of thing--not affection-oriented but working together, ending with a meal cooked together and watched over a ridiculous movie. Offered her a backrub when she said she was feeling tense, and she let me, which seemed to go well. I was very good about not pushing for affection, being complimentary without expecting anything in return, etc. Even gave a hug when she got some bad news and was hugged back in return (not reading too much into that, of course--it's what you do when you're hugged).
I'm being a LOT more careful about not crying where she can see or hear me and being confident and positive when around her. NOT ALWAYS EASY. But have a few evenings reserved for "my GAL stuff" this week (dance classes again, which aren't really doing for me what I'd hoped but are still fun, and a "language practice" group--I'm learning French). And had a good workout today, which always helps.
But as mentioned, when we have a good day it's often followed by a bit of a backlash... I think she has a mindset that leaving is being true to her needs and staying is somehow "losing", so there always seems to be a bounce. And there are some tricky bits--she is much more social, so leaving and staying with her friends sounds a lot more fun than staying here with just me (and I'm crap at having friends, since we only moved here a few months ago and I don't/can't really socialize with work folks).
Still not sure how much I should fight a separation if she and our MC think it's a good idea. And actually some separations I could get behind (a couple months to finish her PhD at her sister's), but "move away and live with friends in a communal apartment while trying to get a job for a year" sounds a wee bit too permanent...
