Please note that there is a lot of sexual stuff in my story, I hope I didn't go overboard, just need to let it out. It is not graphic, just very convoluted.
I have noticed that most of these stories including my own have ALOT in common. I really appreciate the support you guys give each other so I have decided to add my own, because lets face it I am way in over my head. I guess you could say it all started while I was away serving in Afghanistan, my wife took it very hard especially since we were VERY close. Halfway through she got stronger and was able to show that she could handle it, unfortunately she also became cold and distant. I of course not realizing what I was doing, became desperate and would grill her by asking question about how she felt about us, and why was she acting so cold, etc etc etc. As you can imagine this only made things worse. While away she would tell me how she would be in the mood for sex all the time, and couldn't wait for me to get home so we could go back to having a great sex life. 3-4 months into the deployment I used some of my deployment money and finally let her get the nose job, and lipo she so desperately wanted. She took it as a new opportunity to change her life and continued to lose weight (she is currently a 00 pants) change religions to buddhism, and became a vegetarian. Halfway through she asked if she could go around the country to watch our favorite band. I thought it would be great for her to go and let her go to two concerts one in Albuquerque the other in Seattle. (She was in El Paso at the time.) During the Albuquerque concert she met a girl, and claims that they instantly connected. She claims she is the big sister she never had and that she can only see her as her best friend. This girl convinced her to go to Seattle with her. My warning bells were super going off, but I let her go because I knew that if I didnt the possible OW could turn the tables on me and push the jealousy issue on my wife.
Well I got back and the welcome home was not quite what I expect. Yes she made it to the airport, and ran up and gave me a kiss on a lips, but it was more like a lip smash than a true passionate kiss. She then complained that I hurt her with that kiss, because I smashed her lip piercings. (We actually had an argument about that because I didnt want her getting lip piercings) Well she did anyway, I actually ended up liking them and now she has 31 piercings scattered everywhere, but I love them. We were both anxious to have welcome home sex, but it almost didn't happen, because I knew that nothing turns her off more than for me to initiate sex, unless she is 99% in the mood. Which means that most of the time she initiates sex.
We went from having sex every second we were together when we started to maybe 1 or twice a month. A lot if issues played into it like her own issues with her weight (which should be resolved now, but they are not). Some just became preconditions that had to be met in order for her to even consider having sex. Here are a few that I can think of: No sex until after all activities are done so that she won't feel dirty as we go and do other things, no sex in the daylight, no sex before the daily shower, and no sex right after the daily shower, (she just got clean), no sex in the shower either (drags the shower too long). the list goes on and on. I think my window of opportunity was smaller than the launch window for the space shuttle. So I would patiently wait all day for the right window, in order to make my move, only to be rebuffed because she knew that I was coming for sex during the window, and her knowing that I was reaching for sex turned her off. She wanted it to be spontaneous exciting and romantic, yet would set all these conditions that killed any chance of romance and spontaneity happening. The military a month after I got back moved us to Arizona where things improved temporarily both marriage wise and sexually. I was adapting well to living in a omnivore-vegetarian household, and we temporarily increased our sex frequency. Then she started nagging me. Saying I spent too much time with her, and that I was smothering her. In truth I was trying to make up for the last 15 months away, but she didn't see it that way. To make things worse my new assignment gave me lots of free time and home, which I tried to use to reconnect to her but it just made things worse. It got to the point where we sometimes fight because one is trying to please the other, and she gets upset that I do. For example Her "What do you want for dessert?" Me: the Cheesecake Her: I want the chocolate cake, Me: well we can have the chocolate cake, Her: no but you wanted cheesecake.....fight ensues. I'm sure many of you have heard this: Me: "Where would you like to go to dinner honey?" Her: "I don't know whatever you want" Me: How about Olive Garden, Her: No, Me: Outback, Her: No, Me:Chinese?, Her: No...
Anyway before we get sidetracked again, at one point she started saying that the sex was getting boring. I probably should have done some research, but instead I ended up trying the lame tactics like candles, and dumb stuff like that. It was too little too late. Years ago it had come out that she was bi as a young guy I was very excited by the idea, and when I tried suggesting we explore it as a couple, she got very upset and said that the idea of me with another woman was unbearable. After a long fight, we both agreed despite her orientation we loved each other and only wanted each other. So despite her being bi, we were in a monogamous, hetero relationship. Now flash forward to now, when one day in bed she asked if I would get breast implants on me for her. She told me it would be a lot of fun for her and that I would greatly benefit with more attention. I think I handled it well and explained that a. it just wasn't me, and b. I could NEVER do that in the military. She took this well enough and we went to bed. She later on confessed to me that she had been wanting sex with a woman, was conflicted and didn't know what to do. I asked if she had done anything, and she adamantly denied it. Of course she got offended by the question. (To this day she still denies having had sex outside our marriage, and I for the most part believe her). I said that her orientation was no problem, and that she was free to watch as much porn as she wanted to get her fix. (Oh I need to mention that she goes ballistic if I don't look away or cover my eyes if a girl in a bikini shows up on TV). I knew from the fight years ago to not take it as an opportunity to ask for a threesome, and we left it at that. During this time we tried hard to make things work, we went to adult stores where she got sexy lingerie to wear for me (which she still hasn't worn) I got her some toys, and she insisted in me getting some toys for myself, but I told I wouldn't know what to get anyway. Later while setting up her laptop for movie night I found out that she made an account for a sex personals site. As you can imagine I was destroyed, but I kept my cool. Around this time my wife kept dropping hints that she wanted to try it out with a woman. I simply would just point out that she wouldn't be able to handle the guilt, and I couldn't handle the jealousy. We would both agree, and our sex life would take another hit. She then started saying that I sucked at sex, and that the only way she could get in the mood now to have sex with me was to get drunk, or watch lesbian porn. I tried talking about, and she stated that she was indeed still attracted to men, but she felt that she couldn't have sex with me until she could long story short "fulfill her needs". This caused a lot of arguments until one day I finally said fine go ahead and do it. This actually calmed things down in the house she kept going with her profile, but kept all those details private. She told me I was free to explore men, but I know she did it, because she knows I can't. I asked her to please not do it in our town, to please go to the nearest major city to find these OW's. This has worked well since it takes 1.5 hours to get there, and 1.5 hours to get back. Which means she can't casually just go and hook up, she literally has to block at least 4 hours to it and 3 would be spend just driving there. (Part of the reason while I still believe her when she says that she has not done anything, despite the fact that she probably logs on to talk to prospective people all the time). (She left to the big city twice, both times in serious anger, I suspect she tried hooking up with people, but she always returned early enough, and text messaged me while there to ensure me nothing happened.) Sex between us didn't improve and instead got pushed to "Maybe I'll want you more once I discover what my needs are".
Meanwhile on other fronts our M started suffering with more fights, and her finding every little thing I do extremely annoying. The major fight came during a subsequent visit to the adult store. She encouraged me to get a toy for myself, so I decided to get a top of the line toy for guys. It's fancy, but not trashy at all. Something I could keep in a drawer and wouldn't be an issue. She kept insisting at the store for me to get whatever I wanted, but as soon as I got in the car she said in the most venomous voice: It's a good thing you got something to entertain yourself with while I am with my girlfriend. I knew she was very upset, AND very jealous. My question then was if she really had one already? She angrily replied that no but she was looking, and that it was none of my concern. I tried hitting the angle that maybe her jealousy of a toy shows that we shouldn't be experimenting like this, and that we need to work on us. All I would get from her was: "I want sex, but I don't want it with you. I don't know what to do, so let's just get divorced." Somehow that night she turned the tables on me and made the whole fight about me being jealous of the idea of her having a gf even though i had agreed to it early on. Out of desperation I confessed to her that I wanted her to consider it and try it, but what I really wanted was for her to realize that it is not what she wanted and to come to me. (Hopefully all without a PA occurring). She took this completely the wrong way and instead said that I was manipulating and playing games with her, and that she could never trust me again.
The next few days she was very cold and distant, I tried to give space, but tried to apologize and fix things. She wouldn't budge, and reiterated to me that I had lost her trust, and that once that is lost NO ONE in her life gets it back. (I know this to be true, because she has thrown away some ten year friendships over petty arguments, even though the offending party super apologized). At that point the things that annoyed her about me SUPER IRRITATED her and she would threaten the big D over things like bottles of water left open on the kitchen table, or my habit of adding an s to anyway so it says "anyways". One of these arguments actually led to her packing her things to leave. After a loooong fight she finally calmed down, but I had to give in a lot of ground. For one I had to accept that she could not stay faithful to me, two she needed more free time to herself (ok so maybe I was smothering her a little).
I accepted to these two, only to find out while setting for movie night, that she actually meant it and was still signing on the adult dating website. I had to bring it up especially since it was so blatantly obvious, we were both in the room when I typed the address on the browser and as a suggestion the site came up. We discussed it more amicably this time, she stated she still didn't trust me to not be playing tricks on her. (Funny how the tables of trust have turned). So then I suggested that if we were going to have an open marriage I should get to have fun too. She agreed, and said once again I could only have men. I still don't know why but I agreed, and told her I was making an account that day. She was very weary of this, but said ok.
Now I seriously don't know what compelled me to do this, maybe it was my own frustration, but I went ahead and made an account looking for gay men. I know it's ridiculous. This bugged the W to no end. To where it caused another fight. She then confessed that she was afraid that a man would be willing to meet my needs more often and that she would lose me to him. (Funny cause that is how I have felt all along). I tried using this as a point to try to reconcile and work on closing the marriage, but it didn't work. At some other points I tried bringing up the logistics of it and setting some ground rules such as no bringing people home etc etc etc. Each and every time she would lose her temper and leave the room. (Which leads me to believe that she herself has mixed feelings about all this). At one point she got upset and said she didn't care if I did anything, just not to let her know, and that she would do the same but she would let me know once she did something. (Contradictory huh?)
A few days later I decided to check her profile since we both had accounts. I took the terrible shock and found out that her profile was open to men, women, and couples...This deeply hurt me especially considering all the restrictions she had placed on me. I confronted her on this and she claimed that it was a default setting and that was not what she meant. I wanted to call her a liar to her face, but then she turned the tables on me and said "What if I let you have women?" I was very uncomfortable with the idea of her and other men, but being weak as I am agreed. Sigh... Im such a fool.
Things calmed down again, but didn't improve. She still didn't trust me, I was still angry at her. We were both looking outside. Then the breaking point came while she was showering. She takes a long time so I decided to see if I had any messages on the adult dating site...zero...(I know she gets hundreds, from both sexes). She came out faster than expected and saw that I was checking messages. (something I bet she does every day.) She completely lost it.... packed up her things and left to El Paso to stay with her parents.
Just in case anybody was waiting for more to respond here is part 2
The moment she left, she left furious. I had never seen her that angry, she was angry because I was doing the exact same thing she was. The same exact thing I reluctantly agreed to, and she encouraged. Well of course I was destroyed, hurt, confused, but adamant to get her back. I hadn't bought DR or DB at this point yet, but many people had told me to just let her go, and let her come back. So instead of calling her to beg her to turn the car around and drive back home I let her take the 6 hour ride to El Paso. Then she texted me.... Every 40 minutes or so she would stop send me a text message that implied "please say the right thing to change my mind." She kept reiterating that if she made it to El Paso it was over so I better say something quick. This went on until she finally made it to El Paso around 1 in the morning. I thought it was over. She sent a message letting me know that she made it home safely. By this point I decided to go dark, didn't call her, or text her. Instead I would get a text about every 20 to 30 mins. Hadn't read DB or DR yet so I would respond. This led to some very long soul searching conversations over text. At this point she started going out with her friends, and family of around her age. Lots of clubbing and drinking. I gave her space, and didn't do what I used to do, which was text and call like crazy. Which seriously pissed her off. All her friends supported her on her decision to divorce....all her friends are single or divorced.... One of her friends got her a job interview the next morning. So we got into the "you better say the right thing to win me back before I get this job or you wont have a chance." I continued to give her space and never texted or called until she would. Which she would do often. Well she got the job, around that time she started getting fed up with living with her parents (this is one or two days into her leaving). So she started saying that she wanted to move out, and get her own place, and that if she signed a lease, then it would definitely be over then!! This was when she started saying things like, "I will do ANYTHING to move out", "If I have to sell myself I will." As you can imagine this HURT. I offered to help her, but she wouldn't take my money, said she didn't want to depend on me anymore, and would rather take to the streets than do that. Also at this point she had two weeks before her 8dll an hour started. This became another deadline, where I had to say the right thing before her orientation, or it was over. Well long story short a very wise friend who was herself a WAW, but had fixed her marriage gave me some good advice. Long story short she told me all the DB basics, going dark, 180's, how to change etc etc etc. Not sure if she has read DB or not, but everything she said fits DBing and it worked. My wife returned after two weeks, but not without some concessions. She turned down the job and moved back in, but demanded the marriage stayed open. I said that I was still uncomfortable with it, was closing my account, wouldnt seek for anyone for myself, but I understood that she still was unsure as to her needs so she was free to have both men and women outside the marriage. The day she came she almost demanded we had sex. By this point I had gotten DB, and DR, and looked up some sex help. Her response to the performance was. "That was pretty ok" I took it as the fog talking and still believe she loved it. Before she came home, I super straightened the house, did some home improvement, and GAL'ed as much as I could. She was shocked yet as can be expected very skeptical.
I guess it's time I clarify my stance on all of this. Despite having agreed to a free pass I don't want her to have what would pretty much be PA or an EA. I only accepted because after reading DB and this forum I have come to realize that this is not a decision I can make for her. I know she herself has some serious misgivings about this arrangement, and I want her to fully make this decision for the sake of the marriage. I want to save the M hopefully close it someday. What do you guys think am I right? A fool?
GB90 - First and foremost, thank you for serving our country. That's awesome.
I read through your sitch, but I have a really difficult time with the concept of an open marriage. It is a bridge that I have crossed in my mind with the possibility of my W being bi. If that turns out to be the case but she still wants to reconcile, I know that we are going to have to build some very solid guidelines for our marriage to work. I have read where an open marriage is one possible solution, so that your W could fulfill her same sex needs. I, personally, will not be okay with that at this point.
For me, my W's EA/PA was with a woman, but it might as well have been with a man. An affair is an affair. The betrayal against our marriage is the same no matter what the sexual orientation of the partner is. Sure, it created a complexity to the matter. No doubt. I just have a hard time feeling that our relationship would improve if opened like that. That's not to say that it couldn't work. I am sure they exist. I am just not sure how many healthy open marriages are setup when the marriage itself is unhealthy. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
I have talked to my therapist and our couples therapist about my feelings towards the continuation of my W seeing the OW while we are still married. That is a major boundary with me. All of the therapists involved have pretty much said that seeing the OW would not allow my W to truly find herself, as we all know about the fog of an affair. Then it has been discussed how my W was going to be active and meet with lesbian groups, go out to gay bars, and socialize through some of her gay friends. My W is in her self discovery time right now. I am supportive and will stay patient while she does this, but we have all agreed that dating or becoming intimate with another person, man or woman, at this time would cross the boundaries of our marriage.
In your sitch, your W seems to be all over the place with her demands in the R and even ultimatum. She almost seems to be trying to see what she can get away with but also wants you to rescue her. She is probably as confused as you are. I think it will be important for you to be understanding with her while she goes through this process of finding out who she is. For us, this is where a couples therapist was really helpful. It allowed for us to communicate effectively on where each other were at the time, what our plans were for the immediate future, and even the long term scenarios. Once those expectations were set, it made it much easier for me to really start DBing. I could then step back and was not driving myself out of control with the thoughts of the PA or the possibility of my W being gay.
If not through a counselor, maybe approach your W with your feelings towards her and your M. Some may say that having R talk is a bad thing, especially if done all of the time. I can see how that is pressuring or pursuing, but if you haven't had a chance to really tell her how you feel about your M, I think it could provide the initial guidance. Be supportive of her in a time where confusion may be taking her over. Be the strong, understanding H that she married. DB your arse off for YOU.
You can do this. It may seem out of control right now, but if you slow it down and really work for your M, it will begin to get easier. Clarity will come.
Come back here and post often. Also, get involved with other posts. I learned a ton from some of the feedback given to other sitch's. The people on this board are a fantastic source of expertise and support. Use them.
Would you mind giving some background of your marriage? Ages, kids, etc.? Throw it in your signature. I know it makes it helpful for some of us to get a better idea of the background of you and your M.
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
I'll add the details to my sig but for now here are some basics. I am 27 she is 25. We will make 4 years in 2 weeks and seven of knowing each other in aug. No kids, neither wants any. To my knowledge there has never been a PA or EA. Although W desires a PA. I take the fact it hasn't happened yet as a good sign, and pray it never does. As for my sitch I can say for certain she is bi. I guess the question in her mind is whether she can be exclusive to me.
As for myself I have resolved to model the marriage I want and despite having her consent will not go looking outside the marriage. I know this throws her off since I imagine she could use me finding other people as a justification to do what she may be reluctant to do. Either way I'm not supposed to mind read and I KNOW I myself can't do it.
As of two weeks ago she moved back (i credit DB) we have had some pretty bad fights, but also some great times. I'll post the details later. She herself in so many ways is still unsure. So I am doing all the DBing I can. Thank You MWD!!!
Ok so she came back about 3 weeks ago, it was hard but she finally did. We have had about 2 or 3 minor fights and one major one. Other than that it has been good, she is till pushing this whole open marriage thing, which I try to just nod my head and blow off. When she came back we made love twice within 3 days, it seemed that the whole problem was over, she seemed happy I was happy. Then she asked me to give her some time because of her cycle. I agreed and left her alone for about 5 days. She herself playfully told me to wait for her. After 2 days when it was over I decided to start initiating again, she completely blew me off and it led to some minor arguments. I backslid and pushed too hard I know... A day or two later she seemed very upset, and started talking about the open marriage again. Since then she will bring up about every 2-3 days, mostly on date night This actually made me really defensive the first time and we had a major fight. I tried staying calm, but I guess she could smell my annoyance. She brought it up again, the next night while going out I super controlled myself and she kept "innocently bringing it up". I kept my cool and reiterated my discomfort with it, while supporting her self discovery.
Hey GB90. Being a guy, fantasizing about a threesome with GF / W and another woman is fun... I know that is something I would not likely ever do.
Good for you for finding your way here and being brave enough to post your situation.
I will first say that I am NOT open to an open marriage. My W suggested that I find someone else to see if the grass was greener. I said, "no thanks. I am sure it is not." First, I am sure it is not. Second, I have no interest in enabling her to have her own PA. Third, I do not care if it makes her mad that I do not seek elsewhere and "leave" the M in that way, because I believe in the M vows and covenant.
Be true to yourself in this one (of course, always). If you have to "dig" to find it in yourself to have an open M, then you are probably fooling yourself if you think you can. I actually found myself in a position to have a PA... and I broke down... nope... not for me.
How would your W define "open M"? Is it necessary for you to have a physical relationship with someone other than your W?
"Guy fantasies" aside, what would your feelings be if she would physically be with someone else? Your first reaction after the "woohoo" is probably the true one. And re-think it but put your W with another man and see if your feelings are the same.
If your reaction would be one of "nope, don't like the idea", then do not accept it.
Unless you said your vows as "I will be very happy if you have intimate, physical relations with other people once we're married", then you likely vowed to be with her only and expected she stated the same. Bi or not, when we say those vows, we vow to be monogamous.
I'm not going to lie and say I haven't fantasized about it she knows this too. The problem is she herself can't get over the idea of me with another woman. A threesome would force her to physically be there. She can't handle that. In fact the day she left she did out of anger over catching me looking at the same site she herself frequents. This arrangement is really toxic for the both of us. I know she knows this but is still adamant on it. Not sure what she needs to prove or find out for herself. As far as I know neither of us crossed the line into a PA or EA. I try to think of this as her having an OM/W who she has not had a PA with yet. I'm trying to apply good DB principles in the hope that the open option loses it's appeal much like an affair loses it's luster. Hopefully good DB will do the trick. As for your questions her idea of open is completely physical the more casual the better. Of course this worries me, but luckily so far that has given her some pause for concern. As for myself I can't do it even with permission, because I care for her, and I know that it would only enable her while creating a chasm between us. I think we would have these encounters more to spite each other. That is not healthy. So I will stay clean and model the M I want. I guess it's like guys whose W have OM getting OW for yourself would be counterproductive even though W keeps claiming it's Ok. We all know it's not :p
GB90 - Is there any chance you could get your W to agree to any form of marriage counseling? I see so much confusion from your W. I think it could really help create an avenue for some much needed honest communication to where you see your marriage going and what boundaries need to be set. Has she ever been open to that idea?
Me - 33 W - 33 S - 9 months M - 3 years T - 5.5 years Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY PA discovered - 1/18/11 PA began - 3/22/10 Separated
This actually made me really defensive the first time and we had a major fight. I tried staying calm, but I guess she could smell my annoyance. She brought it up again, the next night while going out I super controlled myself and she kept "innocently bringing it up". I kept my cool and reiterated my discomfort with it, while supporting her self discovery.